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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
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    Raleigh, NC
    I remember the old days when there basically was no recruiting information available to the teeming masses (me) and I'd wait anxiously for Street & Smith to come out because it would give some indication of who the high school studs were and where they might end up."

    Let me go back even further. I remember the old days when we fans waited to see the freshmen teams play before thinking about evaluating potential talent. Occasionally the rare Lew Alcindor or Tom McMillen would garner front-page attention in high school but it was quite rare. Even David Thompson, the last of the great freshman-team-stars-was largely under the radar.

    Showing my age.

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by jimsumner View Post
    I remember the old days when there basically was no recruiting information available to the teeming masses (me) and I'd wait anxiously for Street & Smith to come out because it would give some indication of who the high school studs were and where they might end up."

    Let me go back even further. I remember the old days when we fans waited to see the freshmen teams play before thinking about evaluating potential talent. Occasionally the rare Lew Alcindor or Tom McMillen would garner front-page attention in high school but it was quite rare. Even David Thompson, the last of the great freshman-team-stars-was largely under the radar.

    Showing my age.
    DAMN but you're old.

    You mean, actually watch them play first? Freshman teams?

    Actually, I watched Denton, Devinzio (sp?), Evans and Katherman play on Duke's freshman team . . . so that dates me.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by dw0827 View Post
    DAMN but you're old.

    You mean, actually watch them play first? Freshman teams?

    Actually, I watched Denton, Devinzio (sp?), Evans and Katherman play on Duke's freshman team . . . so that dates me.
    Heck, I watched Evans play football for Durham High.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
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    New Orleans
    Quote Originally Posted by Indoor66 View Post
    Heck, I watched Evans play football for Durham High.
    First team Parade high school all-American quarterback in 1966, IIRC. That class was supposed to lead us back to the promised land (and don't forget the 5th scholarship player, Steve Litz). What happened to them? Bucky, I guess.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Lompoc, West Carolina
    I can remember back when the only word you would get, on a national level, concerning a high school player, might be in the very back ofSports Illustrated with a one column inch write-up. God, I'm old.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by dkbaseball View Post
    First team Parade high school all-American quarterback in 1966, IIRC. That class was supposed to lead us back to the promised land (and don't forget the 5th scholarship player, Steve Litz). What happened to them? Bucky, I guess.
    Vic Bubas was the coach during that period. As Freshmen they were undefeated (coached by Bucky).

  7. #7
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    Mar 2007
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    New Orleans
    Quote Originally Posted by Indoor66 View Post
    Vic Bubas was the coach during that period. As Freshmen they were undefeated (coached by Bucky).
    Bubas had them for one varsity season, Bucky for two. I believe Devenzio, for one, had his best season under Bubas as a sophomore. Bucky wasn't their freshman coach; he was the head coach at West Virginia that season. Not sure who the freshman coach was; it was Hubie Brown the following season. I'm pretty sure Devenzio et al didn't go undefeated as freshmen. You're probably thinking of the '69-'70 team with Melchionni, Shaw, etc.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
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    Norfolk, VA
    Quote Originally Posted by dkbaseball View Post
    Bubas had them for one varsity season, Bucky for two. I believe Devenzio, for one, had his best season under Bubas as a sophomore. Bucky wasn't their freshman coach; he was the head coach at West Virginia that season. Not sure who the freshman coach was; it was Hubie Brown the following season. I'm pretty sure Devenzio et al didn't go undefeated as freshmen. You're probably thinking of the '69-'70 team with Melchionni, Shaw, etc.
    I'm going to disagree with you based on my memory. Devenzio, Denton, Katherman, et al went undefeated as Freshmen in the 67-68 season. This is the same season that Duke defeated Carolina in triple overtime and those two events are linked in my memory.

    Maybe Jim Sumner or Olympic Fan could pipe in with the facts.
    Bob Green
    United States Navy (Retired)
    @JBobGreen

  9. #9
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    Mar 2007
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    New Orleans
    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Green View Post
    I'm going to disagree with you based on my memory. Devenzio, Denton, Katherman, et al went undefeated as Freshmen in the 67-68 season. This is the same season that Duke defeated Carolina in triple overtime and those two events are linked in my memory.

    Maybe Jim Sumner or Olympic Fan could pipe in with the facts.
    I hope one of them does weigh in, because I can't find anything on the net. My recollection is they lost at least one to Dedmon & co. at UNC, but I could be wrong. Too bad most here are too young to have savored that triple overtime beaut. The immortal Freddie Lind.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
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    Raleigh, NC

    Post

    The Denton-DeVenzio class was the highest-ranked class Bubas brought in but they did lose some freshmen games.

    In 1968 the Duke freshmen games were broadcast on the campus radio station. Duke beat the Carolina frosh at home on a mid-court buzzer beater by DeVenzio. Freddie Roberts, calling the game, absolutely lost it. I can't repeat on a family site but there were lots of asterisks. The next season, the games were not on the radio.

    1969 was Denton's et. al's sophomore season, my freshman season, and Bubas' last season. I'm reasonably certain there is no connection between my showing up at Duke and Bubas leaving but the possibility has given me some anxiety over the years.

    The sophs joined a deep group of seniors--Lind, Vandenberg, Golden, Claiborne, Chapman--and a non-descript junior class. Vandy and/or Golden were the presumed heir(s) to the star rung vacated when Mike Lewis graduated in 1968. Expectations were high and got higher when Duke started 3-0 and jumped to 9th in the AP poll.

    The the wheels fell off. Rudy Tomjanovich and Michigan came to Durham and left with a 90-80 win. Duke lost four straight for the only time in Bubas' career and spent the rest of the season in the unaccustomed neighborhood of .500. The sophs and the seniors-to put it politely-did not mesh well. Think entitlement. Vandy and Golden slumped badly. Bubas pulled it together for a memorable stretch run but ended 15-13, the worst season of his tenure by far.

    Denton thrived under Bucky. DeVenzio did not. Dick averaged 12.2 ppg as a sophomore, including a memorable 28-point game in an overtime loss to top-10 Davidson. But Waters wanted his PG to think pass first, second, and third. DV was a great open court player but BW reigned him in for a more half-court approach. DeVenzio's scoring dropped in half and he was visibly unhappy?

    Why did he stick around? Simple. He was a three-time Academic A-A and he loved everything else about Duke. DeVenzio, incidentially, was a consensus top-10 recruit in high school and tried to get his h.s. teammate Dennis Wuycik to follow him to Duke. Wuycik was thinking a lighter shade of blue. John Wooden tried real hard to get DV to come west and he only did that with special prospects.

    Evans? Quit basketball after his junior season to play football. Probably should have made that decision sooner. He was a good h.s. basketball player but an off-the-charts football prospect. But he loved hoops.

    Katherman? A truly great shooter. But rebounding, defense, ball-handling? Why bother, that's so much work. Litz had the best view in the house. There was another member of the class, Larry Saunders, a 6'9" forward who transferred from Northwestern. The only transfer Bubas ever took and a pretty good player.

    The Class of '71 was the cornerstone to a pair of NIT teams back when the NIT meant something. Ironically, when they were seniors they were joined by a sophomore class that had gone undefeated as freshmen; Richie O'Connor, Gary Melchionni, Alan Shaw, Jeff Dawson. Final Four written all over it. But. Too many guys competing for too few minutes. Lots of bruised egos and Bucky didn't do hand-holding. In other words, they didn't mesh.

    Still, 20-10 and fourth in the NIT was the high-water mark for Duke basketball for a decade and it sure looked good a few years later. After these guys left, it was deluge time until Foster righted the ship.

  11. #11
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    Norfolk, VA
    Quote Originally Posted by jimsumner View Post
    The Denton-DeVenzio class was the highest-ranked class Bubas brought in but they did lose some freshmen games.
    Jim,

    Thanks for the facts. I was eight years old for the 67-68 season and my youthful memory isn't always accurate.
    Bob Green
    United States Navy (Retired)
    @JBobGreen

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
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    Lompoc, West Carolina
    Quote Originally Posted by jimsumner View Post

    Still, 20-10 and fourth in the NIT was the high-water mark for Duke basketball for a decade and it sure looked good a few years later. After these guys left, it was deluge time until Foster righted the ship.
    Aw, be kind. The Goobers across I-40 would have hung a banner.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Raleigh, NC
    Actually, the Goobers across I-40 won the NIT in '71 and I'm pretty sure there is a banner.

    Want to impress your friends? The only time Duke and UNC have ever played in basketball after the ACC Tourny was in the '71 NIT. Light Blue beat Dark Blue 73-67.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by jimsumner View Post

    The sophs joined a deep group of seniors--Lind, Vandenberg, Golden, Claiborne, Chapman--and a non-descript junior class.
    My memory of Warren "Stonehands" Chapman: He was a highly recruited big. Injured his knee in his sophomore (?) year and never fully recovered. Had a good shot, but there was that stonehands thing.

    Also, Bucky had a couple of notable assistants in 1969, Hubie Brown and Chuck Daly. I've told the haircut story about Hubie and i before here - won't bore anyone with that again.
    "What am i doing in a state of consciousness where THIS is real?"

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    New Orleans
    Back at you with trivia,Jim, and anybody else interested. What quite notable player dispatched Duke in the '71 NIT? I can recall Larry Saunders describing him afterwards as "an absolute tower of strength." Also, he had a teammate who in 1979 won one of the most prestigious awards in sports. In addition, on the freshman squad of that program that year was a player who would become one of the best known coaches in basketball. Name all three and I'll genuflect before the screen. Two and receive a hearty "bravo." The first should be snap.

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Raleigh, NC
    "What quite notable player dispatched Duke in the '71 NIT? I can recall Larry Saunders describing him afterwards as "an absolute tower of strength." Also, he had a teammate who in 1979 won one of the most prestigious awards in sports. In addition, on the freshman squad of that program that year was a player who would become one of the best known coaches in basketball."

    Assuming you're referring to UNC in '71 not Utah in '70. Assuming you're not referring to the consolation loss to St. Bonaventure.

    Wuycik tore up his knee early in the NIT and Bill Chamberlain was MOP. Dave Chadwick came off the bench and played well and Lee Dedmon always vexed Randy. I'll guess Chadwick.

    1979? Who does "he" refer to? The mystery tower of strength or Saunders?

    Future coach? Well, Roy Williams wasn't a freshman in '71 and I don't think he played freshman ball anyway. Karl was a sophomore. Bobby Jones was a freshman in '71, as was Ray Hite. Beats Me.

    UNC defeated Massachusetts in the '71 NIT. You don't mean Julius Erving, Mike Flanagan, and Al Skinner do you?

  17. #17
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    Mar 2007
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    New Orleans
    Quote Originally Posted by jimsumner View Post
    "What quite notable player dispatched Duke in the '71 NIT? I can recall Larry Saunders describing him afterwards as "an absolute tower of strength." Also, he had a teammate who in 1979 won one of the most prestigious awards in sports. In addition, on the freshman squad of that program that year was a player who would become one of the best known coaches in basketball."

    Assuming you're referring to UNC in '71 not Utah in '70. Assuming you're not referring to the consolation loss to St. Bonaventure.

    Wuycik tore up his knee early in the NIT and Bill Chamberlain was MOP. Dave Chadwick came off the bench and played well and Lee Dedmon always vexed Randy. I'll guess Chadwick.

    1979? Who does "he" refer to? The mystery tower of strength or Saunders?

    Future coach? Well, Roy Williams wasn't a freshman in '71 and I don't think he played freshman ball anyway. Karl was a sophomore. Bobby Jones was a freshman in '71, as was Ray Hite. Beats Me.

    UNC defeated Massachusetts in the '71 NIT. You don't mean Julius Erving, Mike Flanagan, and Al Skinner do you?
    Oh, okay, I was thinking we lost to UMass, even though it's only within the last hour I read where you said we lost to the Heels. Senior moment, I guess. Sorry for the red herring. I remember that conversation with Saunders so vividly I just assumed we had lost to UMass.

    Anyway, a bravo for Erving and Flanagan. The guy who was on the freshman team is a much better known coach than Skinner.

  18. #18
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    Feb 2007
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    Raleigh, NC
    Rick Pitino.

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
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    New Orleans
    Quote Originally Posted by jimsumner View Post
    Rick Pitino.
    I'm genuflecting as I type.

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Washington, DC
    1999 was actually one of my very favorite years of Duke basketball. Yeah, we lost the title game to the #2 team in the country, who had been ranked #1 earlier in the season at times. It happens. I'm not going to let a single game, even one for a championship, ruin a great season.

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