MBB: Coaching Carousel - 2015

[Des Esseintes]

And Herb made it to the NCAAs his last five years.

Perhaps beating Duke and the Cheaters the same year will give him more time, but not if he slips back to losing almost all the games to those two. And not advancing far in the tournament.

Seriously, State is only a scant few years removed from the Lowe era, and the hubris has already reasserted itself at contagion levels? When were they last a power? In what universe is the State of the past THIRTY YEARS too good for four straight tourney appearances? The number of programs that should reasonably expect to do better than four straight low-seeded tournament teams is vanishingly small. N.C. State is not among those programs.

[killerleft]

Seriously, State is only a scant few years removed from the Lowe era, and the hubris has already reasserted itself at contagion levels? When were they last a power? In what universe is the State of the past THIRTY YEARS too good for four straight tourney appearances? The number of programs that should reasonably expect to do better than four straight low-seeded tournament teams is vanishingly small. N.C. State is not among those programs.

It's a problem for most programs that compete at the top level, but if Gottfried ever avoids a couple years without major transfers or early-entry NBAers, everybody in the league is in trouble.

[BD80]

It's a problem for most programs that compete at the top level, but if Gottfried ever avoids a couple years without major transfers or early-entry NBAers, everybody in the league is in trouble.

Gottfried and Bennett may be the 2nd and 3rd best coaches in a league that has four active hall-of-fame coaches. Larranaga could be #4.

[Mal]

Gottfried and Bennett may be the 2nd and 3rd best coaches in a league that has four active hall-of-fame coaches. Larranaga could be #4.

Wait, are you really saying there's an argument that Rick Pitino is the 5th best coach in the ACC? I'm calling hyperbole on this. Boeheim's brand is irreparably tarnished and we all know how we feel about Ol' Roy, but let's get serious here. I'll wait until Gottfried or Bennett win something other than a conference title or two before I catapult them over a guy who's been to 7 FF's with 3 different programs and won a Nat'l Championship just 24 months ago.

[Duvall]

Gottfried and Bennett may be the 2nd and 3rd best coaches in a league that has four active hall-of-fame coaches. Larranaga could be #4.

Wait, *Mark* Gottfried? Are you sure? How does Gottfried rate over Leonard Hamilton, let alone Bennett, Larrañaga and the Hall of Famers?

[DoneDeal]

The thing that always gets the carousel going is one of the major programs turning over. Duke, Unc, Louisville and Cuse seem safe in the ACC for a few years before retirements kick in. Indiana is probably the biggest school that could turn over as Tom Crean is 19-12 after going 17-15 last season.

Super "Let's just hope Brad Stevens doesnt want that job" Dave

Crean's buyout is still too large, I believe he'll get at least next year before it drops enough for IN to consider buying him out.

[brevity]

Mississippi State now has an opening.

Mississippi State has parted ways with coach Rick Ray after just three seasons.

Ray, 44, went 37-60 in three seasons at Mississippi State after replacing Rick Stansbury in 2012. The Bulldogs went 13-19 this season, including 6-12 in SEC play.

This thread may get a little bloated if we include people under consideration for new jobs, but suffice it to say, the name Bobby Hurley comes up in connection with Charlotte and DePaul.

[sagegrouse]

Rick Ray has been fired after three years at Mississippi State. His record was 37-60. Prediction: the next guy will have some head coaching experience (Ray was an assistant for 15 years prior). Really safe prediction: the next guy won't be called "Rick." Rick Ray replaced Rick Stansbury, who "retired" in 2012 after 14 seasons, although he unretired two years later to become an assistant at Texas A&M.

[Olympic Fan]

Wait, *Mark* Gottfried? Are you sure? How does Gottfried rate over Leonard Hamilton, let alone Bennett, Larrañaga and the Hall of Famers?

Let's see -- Gottfried has five NCAA wins and two Sweet 16s in four seasons at NC State.

Hamilton had three NCAA wins and one Sweet 16 in 13 years at FSU.

Larranaga arrived at Miami when Gott did in Raleigh -- he has two NCAA wins and one Sweet 16 (and just for the record, Miami finished with a better record than State in 2011 ... the year before both arrived, so you could argue that State was farther down than Miami) ... in the four years here, Larranaga does have an ACC title, but Gottfried as three more overall wins that Larranaga -- and four NCAA appearances to one.

I actually think Bennett is better, but he's in his sixth year with three NCAA wins and one Sweet 16 -- depending on whether the Cavs can rally against Michigan State (which would get him to four wins and two Sweet 16s -- still less than Gottfried.

Hell, at the moment, Gottfried has more NCAA wins in his four years at State than K has over the same span at Duke (although K can tie with a win today)

I don't understand the disparagement of the guy. Gott took over a program that had missed the NCAA for five straight seasons. He's gotten them in the field four straight times and won five NCAA games (and is still alive in this tournament) over that span. That's as many as Herb Sendek won in 10 years at the school. It's the best NCAA record for a State coach since Valvano 25 years ago.

I don't know if he's top two or three, but he's done a quality job in Raleigh.

PS And depending on whether he loses anybody unexpectedly in the offseason, he's going to have a top four ACC team next year too.

[Des Esseintes]

Let's see -- Gottfried has five NCAA wins and two Sweet 16s in four seasons at NC State.

Hamilton had three NCAA wins and one Sweet 16 in 13 years at FSU.

Larranaga arrived at Miami when Gott did in Raleigh -- he has two NCAA wins and one Sweet 16 (and just for the record, Miami finished with a better record than State in 2011 ... the year before both arrived, so you could argue that State was farther down than Miami) ... in the four years here, Larranaga does have an ACC title, but Gottfried as three more overall wins that Larranaga -- and four NCAA appearances to one.

I actually think Bennett is better, but he's in his sixth year with three NCAA wins and one Sweet 16 -- depending on whether the Cavs can rally against Michigan State (which would get him to four wins and two Sweet 16s -- still less than Gottfried.

Hell, at the moment, Gottfried has more NCAA wins in his four years at State than K has over the same span at Duke (although K can tie with a win today)

I don't understand the disparagement of the guy. Gott took over a program that had missed the NCAA for five straight seasons. He's gotten them in the field four straight times and won five NCAA games (and is still alive in this tournament) over that span. That's as many as Herb Sendek won in 10 years at the school. It's the best NCAA record for a State coach since Valvano 25 years ago.

I don't know if he's top two or three, but he's done a quality job in Raleigh.

PS And depending on whether he loses anybody unexpectedly in the offseason, he's going to have a top four ACC team next year too.

1. Making number of NCAA tournament wins an final arbiter of coaching acumen means working with an incredibly tiny data set.
2. Yes, Gottfried technically has "5" NCAA wins. But according full credit for a victory in the ridiculous and mathematically hideous First Four strikes me as... generous. A team only plays in a First Four contest if it has been so mediocre that under the old system it wouldn't deserve even to be included in the tournament. Good for N.C. State for winning that game; it's better than losing. But such a win is not the most brilliant pheasant feather to put in one's cap.
3. I've defended Gottfriend, and I think he is a fine coach. However, there's not a program in America that would pick Gottfried over Tony Bennett right now. Not one, including N.C. State.
4. Same with Pitino.
5. Almost the same with Roy.
6. That said, I agree with you that Gottfried matches up well with Larranaga and Hamilton. Even if age were not a factor, most programs would prefer Gottfried to Hamilton. Larranaga is a much nearer run affair. Gottfried has more tournament success on balance, but Larranaga has actually taken a team to the Final Four. Further, N.C. State has yet to finish higher than a tie for fourth in the ACC regular season, while Larranaga has both a regular season and a conference tournament title to his credit. I'm not sure which guy people would pick. I probably lean with you toward Gottfried, but it's a tough call.

[BigWayne]

Rick Ray has been fired after three years at Mississippi State. His record was 37-60. Prediction: the next guy will have some head coaching experience (Ray was an assistant for 15 years prior). Really safe prediction: the next guy won't be called "Rick." Rick Ray replaced Rick Stansbury, who "retired" in 2012 after 14 seasons, although he unretired two years later to become an assistant at Texas A&M.

Ben Howland is rumored to be the new Miss St coach.

[SCMatt33]

Ben Howland is rumored to be the new Miss St coach.

I think it's a good hire for that program. 15-20 years ago, these types of programs in the bottom half of the power conferences could hire the hot mid major guy at will (most of the time). Now those guys are more content to build their programs as they can at least get in the same zip code in terms of money, have much more job security, and still have a legit chance of consistent success. With the Greg Marshall's and Ben Jacobson's of the world not going to these places (newsflash Alabama!), they're left looking at power conference assistants, low major head coaches (a la Andy Enfield), slightly lesser, but still very good mid major guys (like Danny Manning), and retreads.

In this case, I think Miss St is making a good call. It's not often that you can attract a guy with 3 final fours under his belt to Starkville and his past butting heads with high talent players at UCLA won't be a problem at a place where you need to build with 2 and 3 star guys. Howland's not for everyone, but he's one of the few guys out there that can bring legit buzz to that program.

[Clay Feet POF]

.

In this case, I think Miss St is making a good call. It's not often that you can attract a guy with 3 final fours under his belt to Starkville and his past butting heads with high talent players at UCLA won't be a problem at a place where you need to build with 2 and 3 star guys. Howland's not for everyone, but he's one of the few guys out there that can bring legit buzz to that program.

After reading this, I would have a problem with him.

Read this: http://www.si.com/more-sports/2012/02/29/ucla

[SCMatt33]

After reading this, I would have a problem with him.

Read this: http://www.si.com/more-sports/2012/02/29/ucla

I remember that from 3 years ago, but I don't think it makes him a bad hire for Miss St. That's the kind of stuff I was alluding to when I mentioned his failures butting heads with high talent players. He lost total control of that program and his players and many abandoned it. The demands of a program like UCLA and the city of Los Angeles are very different that what needs to be done in Starkville, Mississippi. Howland has had a couple of years away from coaching and I think he can get back to his roots of building a hard-nosed, blue collar program like he did at Pitt. He can deal with a fan base that will accept bringing in guys that might not have many stars next to their name, but they can check their ego at the door and buy into his system. Like I said before, Howland isn't right for everyone, and if the coaching market were different for bottom tier power 5 teams, this might not be the best hire, but I think there's a good chance Howland can redeem himself in Starkville

[Clay Feet POF]

I Hope he does!

[JasonEvans]

After reading this, I would have a problem with him.

Read this: http://www.si.com/more-sports/2012/02/29/ucla

Yeah, there is a reason Howland has been unemployed for 2 years. His on-court success should have had him landing a job muuuuch sooner. But, I agree that this is a good hire for Miss St. The SEC is certainly not full of great programs at this point. I won't be even mildly surprised if he gets Miss St to the top third of the conference in a couple years.

-Jason "will be interesting to see whether Howland or Bruce Pearl at Auburn can get their programs headed in the right direction first" Evans

[Faustus]

Slightly (or maybe majorly) off-topic here, but I've always found it interesting to see the often unforseen results of the over-bloating of the power conferences due to the greedy expansion to survive the arms race of college football. College basketball fans of these schools on all the various bulletin boards I'd frequent in the past few years took the opportunity to salivate over the various schools they could raid from other conferences and fatten their own. "We can grab Louisville! Maybe even Texas! How great will we be then!?!"

There's another side to that, though. Once you have 12, 15, 16 teams in your conference instead of 8 or 10, there's still only room at the top for one despite the larger membership, and an awful lot more room in the dark nether regions of despondency and irrelevance down at or near the bottom for increasing numbers of teams who still spend millions per year to be successful. The pieces of the pie of success are slimmer and fewer in number while the price of it keeps going up. Your numbers of appearances on ESPN go down as three and four more teams join your conference. Rutgers shoves Purdue further into shadow. And keeping your fans happy with your coach becomes more difficult after numerous bleak seasons in 13th place, as is finding a top-flight replacement coach willing to take on such an increasingly daunting position. Miss. State seems to be lucky that there's a good one, but with damaged reputation, willing to go to bleak Starkville and re-invent himself. Same with Texas Tech last year (not that Tubby got them out of last place). Wake fans, who seemed delighted to have Notre Dame and Pitt and Louisville join now find themselves facing not 12th place anymore, but 15th, an even deeper hole ever to dig out of, making Danny Manning's job there far harder than Dave Odom's ever was.

I suspect schools' fans will be less and less patient with new coaches in this new environment. And for established good programs, how can Pitino, Boeheim, K, Ole Roy, Mike Brey, Jamie Dixon, even Tony Bennett's fans be satisfied with 4th or 5th place when they're used to thinking 1st or 2nd every year? How many years can these schools not win the ACC tournament and their fans still not start to complain a little bit? But they can't all win it every couple of years - there are 15 schools now, not 9 (or the happier 8). How long can Buzz's VT fans be satisfied in 15th place? Can he really jump a dozen other programs to reach an expected level of success? In the past, it was only 5 or 6 spots to daylight and a feeling of well-being. Teams' fans can't even get as many of their stars on conference all-star teams anymore. There's a bigger monster to feed now, just when supporter's expectations are rising and the % of their all being successful falling.

Perhaps luckily for Miss. State, the fans there don't really care much about basketball. But how long will Missouri's coach (when they get a new one) last if he can't beat most of those SEC laggards? How tolerant will Illinois' fans be now that Maryland has added another rung of talent over their heads and who just took 'their' spot away in the tournament field of 68, dooming them instead to the NIT in Alabama? How many more schools' fans in general will lose interest in their teams' season when more and more of them are out of the conference running by February? Football fans aren't the only ones contributing heavily to athletic department coffers, and there has to be lots more dissillusion among many bball supporters these days. I'm sure none of these things mattered that much when conference ADs scrambled for 'a place at the table' of the big conference bowl situation, but I suspect the consequences for college basketball make for a somewhat nastier environment in the Darwinian survival of the fittest. I'm surprised so few college coaches have been fired this year - but my guess is the survival rate of coaches, and the level of contentment of the fans, will diminish in coming seasons.

Just a lunchtime ramble which may or may not make sense...

[Olympic Fan]

Breaking news: Herb Sendek fired at Arizona State

Now, the big question -- will the media crucify ASU the way they went after NC State in 2006 for doing the same thing.

[Des Esseintes]

Breaking news: Herb Sendek fired at Arizona State

Now, the big question -- will the media crucify ASU the way they went after NC State in 2006 for doing the same thing.

Why is that a "big question"? Sendek has been nine seasons at ASU, has made the tournament all of twice, has only posted a winning conference record three times. No one will criticize the decision to move on from that performance. On the other hand, he took N.C. State to the tournament his final five seasons in a row. The media absolutely should have gone after some-people-are-old-enough-to-remember-when-they-were-still-a-power State. Sendek did a fine job in Raleigh; he did an unacceptable job in Tucson. I expect the media will respond accordingly.

[Matches]

Yes, Gottfried technically has "5" NCAA wins. But according full credit for a victory in the ridiculous and mathematically hideous First Four strikes me as... generous. A team only plays in a First Four contest if it has been so mediocre that under the old system it wouldn't deserve even to be included in the tournament. Good for N.C. State for winning that game; it's better than losing. But such a win is not the most brilliant pheasant feather to put in one's cap.

As much as I dislike the "First Four" nonsense, a victory over an 11-ish seed probably is a more significant achievement than a win over, say, a 16-seed.