WBB: NC State 72, Duke 59

[Kedsy]

But at least we're beating the teams we're supposed to beat, right?

Same could be said of Duke's men's team this season. Or any season. Or the vast majority of men's and women's teams in any season.

She's still on track to get to 100 ACC wins faster than any women's coach in history. The arguments against Coach P become WAY weaker if you start bringing wins and losses into the equation.

[GGLC]

The arguments against Coach P become WAY weaker if you start bringing wins and losses into the equation.

Not really, given the top-heavy nature of women's college basketball and Coach P's success in recruiting (I'm sure the Duke name doesn't hurt). The lack of true talent parity between the top echelon of schools and the rest can hardly be overstated. And yet one of the defenses given by the Coach P supporters in response to her lack of Final Fours and her poor record against elite competition is that Duke beats the teams it's supposed to.

Whatever; we can go round and round on this and nobody wants or needs to read it. My sole point in this thread is that, in my opinion, a good leader does not conduct press conferences the way Coach P habitually does; a classy leader does not call her own player stupid in public.

[brevity]

Whatever; we can go round and round on this and nobody wants or needs to read it.

And yet, here we are. These days I dread a Duke WBB loss not because of the effect on the team, but the ugly postgame thread that is sure to follow.

We could save ourselves some time and identify the Dramatis Personae on a sticky thread: agitated Coach P haters on one side and status quo Coach P defenders on the other. Same old agendas in hand. I know you. I see you. I see right through you.

For the record, I'm neither, and a plague on both your houses.

[77devil]

I think you're putting way too much emphasis on a few comments made in a press conference immediately after a tough loss. Different coaches try to motivate in different ways. Different coaches have better or worse abilities to filter out their feelings and give politically correct soundbites when they speak in public, especially when they're upset.

Would it be more desirable for Coach P to control her feelings and say the "right" thing every time? Sure, probably. Does it have any true reflection on her ability as a coach or her ability to lead her players or her relationship with her players? I think not.

When Roy Williams does this, we laugh at him, but does anyone really think his press conference meltdowns and silly public comments mean he's a worse basketball coach or truly affects his relationship with his players? I hope not. The difference is when it comes to Coach P, people around here really do seem to think that, and in my view that's a position that has no factual or logical support.

We actually ridicule Roy and rightfully so, but I do not recall where he has called out individuals by name in an abusive manner; and while his attitude in the pressers is self absorbed, his demeanor is generally restrained. And yes, I believe his players respect him less for it. I think a better comparison for Coach P's post game behavior, and perhaps in other inappropriate ways, is Bobby Knight.

Not really, given the top-heavy nature of women's college basketball and Coach P's success in recruiting (I'm sure the Duke name doesn't hurt). The lack of true talent parity between the top echelon of schools and the rest can hardly be overstated. And yet one of the defenses given by the Coach P supporters in response to her lack of Final Fours and her poor record against elite competition is that Duke beats the teams it's supposed to.

Whatever; we can go round and round on this and nobody wants or needs to read it. My sole point in this thread is that, in my opinion, a good leader does not conduct press conferences the way Coach P habitually does; a classy leader does not call her own player stupid in public.

I hesitated to wade into this discussion but I agree with this. The perfect example in contrast to Coach P occupies an office nearby.

[killerleft]

A good coach and leader shares responsibility with their team in public comments following a loss, even if it's just to say "we should have prepared them better so they didn't make as many Keystone Kops type mistakes." I can guarantee you that Coach K shoulders the lion's share of the blame in public following Duke losses, regardless of what he may think or say in private. That, or he talks up the good play of the other team. What he doesn't do is call his own players stupid (or "pathetic," as per the UConn loss) and put the loss entirely on them and their lack of vision/lack of ability to play.

Point taken.

[DukieInKansas]

I agree that Coach P needs to learn how to handle press conferences in a better way - even if a loss can be blamed totally on the players, I don't think a coach should make that the main talking point in the post game press conference. I certainly hope that Kevin White is paying attention to these statements and that he is actively seeking input from current and former players, coaching staff, families that have information reflecting on Coach P's abilities (good or bad). In the mean time, it appears that any post game thread is going to end up the same way: e70276.gif

Perhaps it is time to leave the poor horse alone and focus on the actual play. A coaching change is very unlikely to happen mid-season. Let's see what happens to the coaching situation when the season is over.

[Kedsy]

A coaching change is very unlikely to happen mid-season.

Or at all, in the foreseeable future.

[burnspbesq]

There is only one solution here: for all future Duke women's games, let's have two threads, one for the pathological haters and one for those who are willing to make an attempt to be objective. I think we know which posters belong in which thread.

[killerleft]

Not really, given the top-heavy nature of women's college basketball and Coach P's success in recruiting (I'm sure the Duke name doesn't hurt). The lack of true talent parity between the top echelon of schools and the rest can hardly be overstated. And yet one of the defenses given by the Coach P supporters in response to her lack of Final Fours and her poor record against elite competition is that Duke beats the teams it's supposed to.

Whatever; we can go round and round on this and nobody wants or needs to read it. My sole point in this thread is that, in my opinion, a good leader does not conduct press conferences the way Coach P habitually does; a classy leader does not call her own player stupid in public.

Wasn't this same "top-heavy nature of women's college basketball" in effect (probably even moreso) for the coaches she will best with her next win? If so, why the "Not really"?

[Duvall]

Wasn't this same "top-heavy nature of women's college basketball" in effect (probably even moreso) for the coaches she will best with her next win? If so, why the "Not really"?

For Chris Weller, Debbie Ryan and Kay Yow? Not sure that comparison really works.

[Mike Corey]

For the record, I'm neither, and a plague on both your houses.

This wins the thread. Brevity is indeed wit.

Sorry for interrupting everyone biting their thumbs at one another.

[CameronBornAndBred]

Azurá Stevens was selected ACC rookie of the week. Pretty impressive given that both games she played in were losses.

A product of Raleigh, N.C., Stevens averaged 13.0 points, 10.0 rebounds and 1.5 steals in contests on the road at fourth-ranked Notre Dame and N.C. State. The 6-5 rookie totaled double-doubles in both games and has registered a career-best three straight contests with a double-double.

http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.db...DB_OEM_ID=4200

[DukieInKansas]

Azurá Stevens was selected ACC rookie of the week. Pretty impressive given that both games she played in were losses.

http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.db...DB_OEM_ID=4200

Congratulations!

[GGLC]

There is only one solution here: for all future Duke women's games, let's have two threads, one for the pathological haters and one for those who are willing to make an attempt to be objective. I think we know which posters belong in which thread.

Do you disagree that a coach should not publicly call a player stupid?

[DU82]

For Chris Weller, Debbie Ryan and Kay Yow? Not sure that comparison really works.

I would argue that the game is more competitive now than it was when these three pioneers started coaching. Note that IIRC even though State hadn't beat Duke at Reynolds or at Cameron since 2001 (before yesterday), State still leads the overall series.

In my view, Duke didn't support women's basketball fully until Coach G arrived (my guess is the lack of support is one reason Debbie Leonard stepped down.) That means that all the schools that did (Maryland, Virginia, State, Cheats, Clemson) had about a 15 year head start.

[AIM4excellence]

I would argue that the game is more competitive now than it was when these three pioneers started coaching. Note that IIRC even though State hadn't beat Duke at Reynolds or at Cameron since 2001 (before yesterday), State still leads the overall series.

In my view, Duke didn't support women's basketball fully until Coach G arrived (my guess is the lack of support is one reason Debbie Leonard stepped down.) That means that all the schools that did (Maryland, Virginia, State, Cheats, Clemson) had about a 15 year head start.

This description is very true. Debbie had one Asst Coach (Jacki Silar), who was also the Field Hockey Coach. IIRC, Jacki became the full time AC when a coach was hired for Field Hockey. There may have been one additional AC added later. Practice facility and locker room for women were pathetic. Changes were made when Coach G was hired. But, Coach G was NOT "fully supported" unless you think that having her boss openly ridicule her for not winning the NC as being in any way supportive. And this was in the face of making 4 FF's and 2 Championship Games in 7 years.

[NSDukeFan]

]

Congratulations!

Is that congratulations to Azura, or to CB&B for the post about one of the players?

[DukieInKansas]

]

Is that congratulations to Azura, or to CB&B for the post about one of the players?

In this thread, actually most of the WBB threads these days, the answer is yes. ;-)

Definitely huge congratulatioms to her.

[Kfanarmy]

Same could be said of Duke's men's team this season. Or any season. Or the vast majority of men's and women's teams in any season.

She's still on track to get to 100 ACC wins faster than any women's coach in history. The arguments against Coach P become WAY weaker if you start bringing wins and losses into the equation.

I think the impetus for coach P's quick start (record) at Duke was taking over a top 5 program. The statistical picture you paint may be accurate, but her early Ws weren't to her sole credit.

[Kfanarmy]

There is only one solution here: for all future Duke women's games, let's have two threads, one for the pathological haters and one for those who are willing to make an attempt to be objective. I think we know which posters belong in which thread.

Isn't this a bit self serving? Wouldn't the two sides, assuming a few reasonable centrists, be pathological haters and pathological lovers?