Is UVA The New Duke?

[Kedsy]

I'm a big Bennett fan, but his record so far (particularly the post season) falls well short of Coach K's at a similar period of time at the school.

Actually, his record so far falls short of Coach K's only in the post-season. And really only in the NCAAT (because the ACCT is "post season" too).

Bennett, first 9 years at UVa:
219-86 (.718) overall; 105-51 (.673) ACC; 3 ACC regular season championships; 2 ACC tournament championships.

K, first 9 years at Duke:
231-101 (.696) overall; 76-64 (.543) ACC; 1 ACC regular season championships; 2 ACC tournament championships, 4 Final Fours, 0 national championships.

Bennett has been much better in the regular season, the same in the ACC tournament, and worse in the NCAA tournament.

College coaches are judged by their post season success - that is it.

Exactly who judges them that way? ESPN? Spoiled fan bases of Duke, UNC, Kentucky, Kansas, and Michigan State?

There are only seven active college coaches who have won national championships (K, Roy, Cal, J Wright, Self, Boeheim, and Izzo; only K and Roy have won more than one). How do the other 344 Division I schools judge their coaches? It's odd, but two other coaches who won championships were recently fired (Tubby Smith and Kevin Ollie) -- I guess their schools judged them on something other than post season success?

[arnie]

Actually, his record so far falls short of Coach K's only in the post-season. And really only in the NCAAT (because the ACCT is "post season" too).

Bennett, first 9 years at UVa:
219-86 (.718) overall; 105-51 (.673) ACC; 3 ACC regular season championships; 2 ACC tournament championships.

K, first 9 years at Duke:
231-101 (.696) overall; 76-64 (.543) ACC; 1 ACC regular season championships; 2 ACC tournament championships, 4 Final Fours, 0 national championships.

Bennett has been much better in the regular season, the same in the ACC tournament, and worse in the NCAA tournament.



Exactly who judges them that way? ESPN? Spoiled fan bases of Duke, UNC, Kentucky, Kansas, and Michigan State?

There are only seven active college coaches who have won national championships (K, Roy, Cal, J Wright, Self, Boeheim, and Izzo; only K and Roy have won more than one). How do the other 344 Division I schools judge their coaches? It's odd, but two other coaches who won championships were recently fired (Tubby Smith and Kevin Ollie) -- I guess their schools judged them on something other than post season success?

Actually you’ve overstated K’s post season success, we made 3 Final 4’s in his first 9 years (81-89). I can assure you that a lot more people than you listed judge coaches from strong conferences with No. 1 seeds on their tourney success. Bennett’s been a blessing for UVA, but until he at least reaches a Final Four, he and UVA fans will believe his success has been incomplete.

[CameronBornAndBred]

Exactly who judges them that way? ESPN? Spoiled fan bases of Duke, UNC, Kentucky, Kansas, and Michigan State?

There are only seven active college coaches who have won national championships (K, Roy, Cal, J Wright, Self, Boeheim, and Izzo; only K and Roy have won more than one). How do the other 344 Division I schools judge their coaches? It's odd, but two other coaches who won championships were recently fired (Tubby Smith and Kevin Ollie) -- I guess their schools judged them on something other than post season success?

I would bet that Coach P shares your viewpoint and frustration.

[ns7]

Um, that's exactly how it works. If they have six losses as a one seed and no nattys, they have been a one seed six times.

Three of those losses were from before Bennett became their HC.

[Kedsy]

Actually you’ve overstated K’s post season success, we made 3 Final 4’s in his first 9 years (81-89). I can assure you that a lot more people than you listed judge coaches from strong conferences with No. 1 seeds on their tourney success. Bennett’s been a blessing for UVA, but until he at least reaches a Final Four, he and UVA fans will believe his success has been incomplete.

You're right. I overstated everything because my stats were for Coach K's first 10 seasons (sorry about that). Other than Final Fours (again) that would make Bennett's numbers look even better against Coach K's.

And I'm not saying his success is complete, just that it's foolish to judge coaches solely on NCAA tournament performance.

[sagegrouse]

No way that Bennett has been a one seed six times.

You're right -- but UVa has -- three times under Terry Holland (ahem, Sampson) and three times with Bennett (2014, 2016, 2018). Their combined record in the championship bracket is 11-6:

1981 3-1 National third place (ignores consolation win in FF)
1982 1-1 Regional semis lost to UAB
1983 2-1 Regional runner-up, losing by a point to NC State
Overall Holland as #1 seed: 6-3 (No round of 64 in those days and probably would have been better with that -- of course, Terry Holland could have become the first coach of a #1 seed to lose to a #16 seed)

2014 2-1 Lost to Mich. State in Sweet 16
2016 3-1 Lost to Syracuse in Elite 8, blowing a big lead
2018 0-1 Ugh
Overall Bennett as #1 seed: 5-3

[jv001]

You're right -- but UVa has -- three times under Terry Holland (ahem, Sampson) and three times with Bennett (2014, 2016, 2018). Their combined record in the championship bracket is 11-6:

1981 3-1 National third place (ignores consolation win in FF)
1982 1-1 Regional semis lost to UAB
1983 2-1 Regional runner-up, losing by a point to NC State
Overall Holland as #1 seed: 6-3 (No round of 64 in those days and probably would have been better with that -- of course, Terry Holland could have become the first coach of a #1 seed to lose to a #16 seed)

2014 2-1 Lost to Mich. State in Sweet 16
2016 3-1 Lost to Syracuse in Elite 8, blowing a big lead
2018 0-1 Ugh
Overall Bennett as #1 seed: 5-3

UVA should just mail it in next season and wait for 2020. Looks like Bennett likes the even number years. GoDuke!

[kako]

This might have been said, but when UVA has 5 national championships, goes to 16 FFs with 5 in a row, make the tourney 23 times in a row, has 20 ACC crowns, inspires the "Anyone But Virginia" mantra and has a coach with 1000+ wins, only then can this question be asked.

[HereBeforeCoachK]

This might have been said, but when UVA has 5 national championships, goes to 16 FFs with 5 in a row, make the tourney 23 times in a row, has 20 ACC crowns, inspires the "Anyone But Virginia" mantra and has a coach with 1000+ wins, only then can this question be asked.

...and when Big East fans wear Vuck Firginia tee shirts, even when UVa is nowhere near the game they are at....

[throatybeard]

Virginia is not the new Duke. Virginia is the new Wake Forest. Wake Forest has ceased to be Wake Forest and has turned into Clemson. Clemson has improved and is more like NC State these days, and State is a riddle wrapped in a mystery wrapped in a red shroud.

None of these are the new Duke.

[indy1duke]

Actually you’ve overstated K’s post season success, we made 3 Final 4’s in his first 9 years (81-89). I can assure you that a lot more people than you listed judge coaches from strong conferences with No. 1 seeds on their tourney success. Bennett’s been a blessing for UVA, but until he at least reaches a Final Four, he and UVA fans will believe his success has been incomplete.

Further separation likely will occur over the next five years when we will compare Tony’s record with Coach K’s back to back national championships, two runners up, and one regional loss. Pretty tough to compete with that if your name is not John Wooden.

[weezie]

Virginia is not the new Duke. Virginia is the new Wake Forest. Wake Forest has ceased to be Wake Forest and has turned into Clemson. Clemson has improved and is more like NC State these days, and State is a riddle wrapped in a mystery wrapped in a red shroud.

None of these are the new Duke.

This is great. Standing O!

[ns7]

2016 3-1 Lost to Syracuse in Elite 8, blowing a big lead

2016 was a massive lost opportunity. I bet that team could have beaten UNC in the FF. They had already split their season series.

[kAzE]

UVA's rise has been meteoric over the past 5 years, but even with this high level of success, I'm not sure how many 5 star recruits will really be lining up to play at UVA. IMO, their style of play is an abomination to the art of basketball. But to be clear, there isn't anything wrong with this. Tony Bennett is a GREAT coach, and UVA is a great school, and I think their success is good for the ACC, but I personally hate watching them play.

Duke's rise in the late 80s and 90s led directly to more high level talent coming to Duke because (aside from having the greatest coach ever), playing Duke basketball just looks like a lot of fun. Most of our most memorable teams played at a high pace, with a free flowing offense designed to take advantage of high-end talent. And even more appealing to kids, Coach K doesn't adhere to any 1 system. He plays whichever style that allows his players to do what they do best.

UVA's system bogs the game down to a crawl, and generally just makes every game a struggle to watch. I can't imagine trying to play that style every game. It would be miserable.

For that reason, I can't see UVA ever becoming what Duke has become as long as they play this way.

[rogermortimer]

When Bennett first arrived, there was no question he was a great coach, and a very good pick if a school wants to win 20-22 games a year on a consistent basis.

I questioned whether great players would come play in that system. What I underestimated was Bennett's ability to coach. He gets tremendous results out of his athletes. But it still is a system, and at crunch time, intense athleticism and permitting to blossom matters.

Here's the problem, though, and the UMBC game demonstrated it. The UMBC kids played out of their minds, and made shots like crazy (they will surely return to their mean, even with as good of a player as Lyles happens to be). The color commentator during the UMBC game mentioned the problem, too. He said UVa needed to get out of the pattern offense and run Guy and Jerome (who frankly can shoot very well) up and down the court, with each beating their opposing man down with height and power. When UVa didn't do that, well, as improbable as it seemed, I though then that UMBC would win. It is as if Uva couldn't adapt to another style of play, even against an inferior opponent from a talent perspective.

I am so far frustrated at Duke's season, likely because the team is not what I am used to seeing. This is of course the result of being a spoiled fan. But Coach K is adaptable. One and done's and AAU superstars not staying long enough to learn great man to man help defense? Fine, go to a zone (style points don't count). Coach K does it. And he let's Duke's athletes run, why on a night like last night against Rhode Island they played like a NBA team. The adaptability just gives Duke a consistent chance at an upside. Perhaps it is unfair to compare anyone to the best basketball coach of all time - and maybe more than perhaps - but imitation in terms of adaptability is theoretically available to any program or coach.

Uva would be a fool not to retain Bennett. There are many more three and four star players than five stars, and Bennett will get them, and he will win games (and they will never be in Wake Forest's circumstance, whihc is depressing as can be). But query whether he can get his guys to adapt and play differently on nights where the system will stall like it did the other night. I am not sure he can because the mental aspect of his system is compelling. If you win any number of games just by grinding (where the opponent doesn't quit physically but does so mentally). that system is very comforting, a virtual security blanket. Stepping outside of it when necessary isn't so easy.

I like UVa. Schools like Uva are what make the ACC what it is - a good sports league with great academic traditions. But the basketball team and their coach raises interesting questions in terms of the limits of performance.

[84Duke]

But you’d think there is a smart top 10/top 5 recruit who would hear “You are the player who wins UVa’s first championship” and go all in. I mean, other than Ralph Sampson. It has to happen someday.