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  1. #41
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Washington DC
    If both Quinn and Tyus foul out, then what? Do you turn to Allen who has played sparingly and say "next man up"? Even though Allen would not be prepared?

    Or do you give him 5-6 minutes every game to help him be prepared for the intensity level?

    Or is there something in between?

    Super "Why am I only asking questions?" Dave

  2. #42
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Quote Originally Posted by superdave View Post
    If both Quinn and Tyus foul out, then what? Do you turn to Allen who has played sparingly and say "next man up"? Even though Allen would not be prepared?

    Or do you give him 5-6 minutes every game to help him be prepared for the intensity level?

    Or is there something in between?

    Super "Why am I only asking questions?" Dave
    If both Quinn and Tyus foul out, then we lose. That was true when Rasheed was still on the roster too.

  3. #43
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    NC
    Quote Originally Posted by dukejunkie View Post
    I think that you are underestimating Allen's importance. There are times when a team can use an offensive spark off the bench. Sulaimon definitely could provide it. I'm pretty sure that Duke is not going to get it from Plumlee or Matt Jones. By default, K might have to try Allen some in that role- not just because of injuries or foul trouble.
    Quote Originally Posted by kAzE View Post
    I think Allen needs to have a bigger role. Right now, the only 2 real playmakers we have are both in the starting lineup. Rasheed's ability to get in the paint from the perimeter and make plays was a vital part of our bench, and Allen is the only guy coming off the bench who could realistically develop that skill set. (I think we mostly know the limitations of Matt Jones' game at this point) I don't think he gets Sulaimon's 19 minutes, but I think he needs to get 10-12 minutes, and then maybe more if he starts to prove himself.
    I respectfully disagree with both of these viewpoints. I think people are overestimating the "need" for offensive punch, and I think people are overestimating Allen's readiness to provide that punch even if needed. Allen has, in ACC play, not looked ready to contribute.

    I think people are really overstating his readiness and being fooled by his performances in blowouts of bad teams early in the year. For example, here are Allen's numbers against the 5 true doormats on our schedule (Presbyterian, Fairfield, Army, Furman, and Elon): 5 games, 12.4 mpg, 45.5 fg%, 30.8 3pt%, 6.4 ppg, 1.4 rpg, 1.2 apg, 1.2 spg, 1 to per game (2.0 a:to ratio).

    Conversely, here are Allen's numbers against higher-quality opponents this year (i.e., excluding the games above): 11 of 15 games played, 3.3 mpg, 33.3 fg%, 40.0 3pt%, 1.2 ppg, 0 rpg, 0 apg, 0.1 spg, 0.5 to per game (0.0 a:to ratio).

    The kid has been a complete non-factor against better competition. He just does not appear to be ready to play with the big boys yet. He certainly does not appear to be ready to provide anything like what Sulaimon could provide.

    More importantly, I'm not sure we need a huge spark off the bench anyway. I think we have enough scorers in Tyus Jones, Cook, Winslow, and Okafor that we can survive with the secondary contributions of Jefferson and Matt Jones offensively. It just puts more of the pressure on Tyus Jones and Winslow to score more consistently.

    I do think Allen will play a bit more. Probably in the 5-8 mpg range. But I don't think he's going to average double-digit minutes per game the rest of the way, nor do I think he's ready to give us an offensive spark off the bench this year.

  4. #44
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    NC
    Quote Originally Posted by gus View Post
    If both Quinn and Tyus foul out, then we lose. That was true when Rasheed was still on the roster too.
    Correct. I'll also add that the likelihood of both Tyus Jones and Cook fouling out is VERY small. Jones has committed 3 fouls in a game just three times this year (and never more than 3). Cook has committed 3 fouls in a game just 7 times this year (and 4 fouls just once). Neither has fouled out, and in our 20 games there has been just 1 game in which both players got 3 fouls (and both only had 3 that game).

    It is extremely unlikely that we'll have a situation where both players foul out. And if we do, we were probably going to lose with or without a ready Allen.

  5. #45
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Deeetroit City
    Quote Originally Posted by CDu View Post
    Correct. I'll also add that the likelihood of both Tyus Jones and Cook fouling out is VERY small. Jones has committed 3 fouls in a game just three times this year (and never more than 3). Cook has committed 3 fouls in a game just 7 times this year (and 4 fouls just once). Neither has fouled out, and in our 20 games there has been just 1 game in which both players got 3 fouls (and both only had 3 that game).

    It is extremely unlikely that we'll have a situation where both players foul out. And if we do, we were probably going to lose with or without a ready Allen.
    They'd have to get closer to the men they are guarding to commit more fouls. That has been a bit of an issue to date

  6. #46
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    Feb 2007
    Location
    NC
    Quote Originally Posted by BD80 View Post
    They'd have to get closer to the men they are guarding to commit more fouls. That has been a bit of an issue to date
    Very true.

    It is worth noting that it is pretty easy for a guard to avoid fouling out. Foul trouble can happen for guards, but it is much more likely to affect a big man.

    It would be a complete shock for both of our PG to foul out in a game.

  7. #47
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Washington DC
    Say we're up the whole game vs UConn in the Final Four, but Tyus and Quinn have foul trouble. Do you play Grayson a few minutes to buy some time?

    We're going to need him at some point in the next two months. Might as well make the rotation 7.5 men instead of 7.

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by superdave View Post
    Say we're up the whole game vs UConn in the Final Four, but Tyus and Quinn have foul trouble. Do you play Grayson a few minutes to buy some time?
    It doesn't really matter because meeting UConn in the Final Four likely implies that it's the NIT semifinals.

  9. #49
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    NC
    Quote Originally Posted by superdave View Post
    Say we're up the whole game vs UConn in the Final Four, but Tyus and Quinn have foul trouble. Do you play Grayson a few minutes to buy some time?

    We're going to need him at some point in the next two months. Might as well make the rotation 7.5 men instead of 7.
    I tend to disagree. Again, it is extremely unlikely that both Cook and Tyus Jones are in foul trouble. And if that happens, I don't think an extra few minutes per game for Allen is going to make the difference in that hypothetical game for us.

    And again, I'm already saying we'll probably give him 5-8 mpg now as opposed to 2-5. I don't think going to 10+ mpg is necessary, and I think it would make us worse in all of the 10+ mpg games. Not worth it (in my opinion) for the off-chance that we need him in the tournament.

  10. #50
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Norfolk, VA
    Quote Originally Posted by CDu View Post
    I do think Allen will play a bit more. Probably in the 5-8 mpg range. But I don't think he's going to average double-digit minutes per game the rest of the way, nor do I think he's ready to give us an offensive spark off the bench this year.
    This view coincides with my thoughts. I want Allen to see increased playing time so he gains experience in case the situation arises where he has to play; however, I do not expect him to play double digit minutes.

    With the rotation tightened, it is increasingly important for Justise Winslow to get healthy.
    Bob Green

  11. #51
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    NC
    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Green View Post
    This view coincides with my thoughts. I want Allen to see increased playing time so he gains experience in case the situation arises where he has to play; however, I do not expect him to play double digit minutes.

    With the rotation tightened, it is increasingly important for Justise Winslow to get healthy.
    Yes. What the loss of Sulaimon does do unequivocally is put a lot more pressure on our top 6 players to stay healthy, productive, and available.

    I am already putting "Health" in as the first bullet in my draft of the Phase V post.

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by CDu View Post
    I am already putting "Health" in as the first bullet in my draft of the Phase V post.
    As you should be.

  13. #53
    Offense is not what we need, if we look back at the team from 2010 that won the national title Duke only had 3 guys that scored for that team. Now I understand that those players were juniors and seniors so this isn't ideal. It's a good thing Coach K is on our side

  14. #54
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Norfolk, VA
    Quote Originally Posted by Gilby_10 View Post
    Offense is not what we need...
    I disagree. When our offense struggles our defense struggles. Our defense is greatly aided by solid offensive efficiency. Some teams play great defense regardless of offensive performance, the 2015 Blue Devils are not one of those teams.
    Bob Green

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Green View Post
    I disagree. When our offense struggles our defense struggles. Our defense is greatly aided by solid offensive efficiency. Some teams play great defense regardless of offensive performance, the 2015 Blue Devils are not one of those teams.
    I agree with what your saying, what we need is toughness from our leaders and we haven't had that this year

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Gilby_10 View Post
    I agree with what your saying, what we need is toughness from our leaders and we haven't had that this year
    Disagree. I think Quinn and Amile have been plenty tough and have been good leaders. I get that we shouldn't have lost to Miami, and probably not NC State, either, but to act like the season has been a disaster and trying to lay blame on "our leaders," is a bit off the mark, in my opinion.

  17. #57
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    NC
    Quote Originally Posted by Kedsy View Post
    Disagree. I think Quinn and Amile have been plenty tough and have been good leaders. I get that we shouldn't have lost to Miami, and probably not NC State, either, but to act like the season has been a disaster and trying to lay blame on "our leaders," is a bit off the mark, in my opinion.
    I mostly agree with you. However, I think we showed a lack of poise in each of our three losses, two of which came in blowout fashion against inferior teams. I would say that, in those three games, we lacked leadership. And outside of the Wake game, and the St. John's game (in which Cook clearly was a leader), I'm not sure that leadership has been all that critical in our wins.

    Note that I specifically excluded the Wisconsin game. I believe that leadership is exhibited when things are going tough. We ran roughshod over Wisconsin's defense, and as such leadership was not an issue. This team simply hasn't had too many games this year in which we've really struggled. If anything, we'd mostly coasted/cruised through games until the Wake game.

    I don't think Cook and Jefferson are bad leaders. I just don't know that we've seen a ton of evidence of their leadership so far this year. Noteworthy examples include Jefferson's play in the Miami and Louisville games and Cook's play in the Miami and St. John's games.

  18. #58
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Raleigh, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by Gilby_10 View Post
    Offense is not what we need, if we look back at the team from 2010 that won the national title Duke only had 3 guys that scored for that team. Now I understand that those players were juniors and seniors so this isn't ideal. It's a good thing Coach K is on our side
    I disagree with this as well. I don't see any way this team is going to be exceptionally good at defense. To succeed at a high level we are going to have score and keep scoring. The ND collapse is a good example of this. We stopped scoring and they did not. Offense is exactly what we need (well, defense is what we really need but I don't think we are going to get it so offense it is!).

    I would like to see Allen's minutes increase in hopes that the game slows down for him some and he starts to contribute more effectively. Note, I suspect that IF he is going to get a significant increase in minutes (say 5 minutes or more) it will not start tomorrow against UVa.

  19. #59
    I side with the people who don't expect Grayson's playing time to increase much, if at all. The game still seems a little too fast for him at this point and he's just not ready to contribute meaningful minutes.

    There's plenty of evidence that Coach K is fine with bringing just 1 guard and 1 big off the bench. I think Marshall and Matt will see increased playing time and Justise will spend less time at the 4.

    For those who think Grayson will suddenly be placed in a significant role off the bench, I'd ask the following: If Grayson weren't on the roster and all other current circumstances were the same, would you expect a walk-on to pick up Rasheed's minutes? I don't think so. It's probably safer to assume that Coach K will increase the minutes of players he thinks are ready to play than to assume that Grayson will play more just because he happens to play the same position as Rasheed.

  20. #60
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Atlanta, GA
    Quote Originally Posted by wk2109 View Post
    I side with the people who don't expect Grayson's playing time to increase much, if at all. The game still seems a little too fast for him at this point and he's just not ready to contribute meaningful minutes.

    There's plenty of evidence that Coach K is fine with bringing just 1 guard and 1 big off the bench. I think Marshall and Matt will see increased playing time and Justise will spend less time at the 4.

    For those who think Grayson will suddenly be placed in a significant role off the bench, I'd ask the following: If Grayson weren't on the roster and all other current circumstances were the same, would you expect a walk-on to pick up Rasheed's minutes? I don't think so. It's probably safer to assume that Coach K will increase the minutes of players he thinks are ready to play than to assume that Grayson will play more just because he happens to play the same position as Rasheed.
    Exactly.

    I'd point back to just a few years ago when the team desperately needed a lock down defender at the wing position and a Mickey D's AA, Michael Gbinije, was available at the end of the bench. Even though his height and athleticism looked like it could provide just what the team needed, he didn't become a significant contributor because he wasn't ready to see the floor. If you're ready, you'll get in the games. If you're not, you won't.

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