North Carolina rivalries. (Or, Dean Smith hates shaking your hand)

[CameronBornAndBred]

Interesting article on WRAL's sports page about the development of the rivalries between the four NC ACC schools.

There was once a time Duke, North Carolina, North Carolina State and Wake Forest all cheered for each other. A time during the Big Four Tournament that, when all four won on the same day, the region celebrated as if it were a holiday. Chants of “ACC!” united fan bases wearing blue, red and black. How and when did it all change?

http://www.wralsportsfan.com/genesis...ries/14287795/

(I grew up in the 70s, and I don't remember doing anything but smiling when the Tar Heels lost.)

[Lid]

Wow, some great stuff in there! Thanks for posting. Especially love the last bit about Bill George -- if true, that's a great story.

[devildeac]

Interesting article on WRAL's sports page about the development of the rivalries between the four NC ACC schools.


http://www.wralsportsfan.com/genesis...ries/14287795/

(I grew up in the 70s, and I don't remember doing anything but smiling when the Tar Heels lost.)

A time during the Big Four Tournament when they all won on the same day? My memory is getting fuzzy but I thought the four schools played each other during that "tournament" and not different foes so all four couldn't win on the same day. WRAL needs to do a bit more/better research on this one.

[CameronBornAndBred]

A time during the Big Four Tournament when they all won on the same day? My memory is getting fuzzy but I thought the four schools played each other during that "tournament" and not different foes so all four couldn't win on the same day. WRAL needs to do a bit more/better research on this one.

Further down, it is a bit clearer that he was talking about the Dixie Classic.

[devildeac]

Further down, it is a bit clearer that he was talking about the Dixie Classic.

Good. Thanks for clarifying. Glad they got that right. And I still never cheered for a unc win so we're both drinking from the same bottle of beer. Different glasses, of course.

[OldPhiKap]

Great article.

As far as recruiting rivalries and bad blood, Art Heyman's name has to be high on the list.

[77devil]

A time during the Big Four Tournament when they all won on the same day? My memory is getting fuzzy but I thought the four schools played each other during that "tournament" and not different foes so all four couldn't win on the same day. WRAL needs to do a bit more/better research on this one.

The Greensboro Coliseum never was nor has been as loud as it was during the Big Four tournament. During his first Big Four game (against UNC) Gene Banks was called for a technical foul for scoring on a break away after a whistle. He didn't hear it and neither did hardly anyone else. I was sitting behind the Duke bench and I didn't hear it. The coaching staff didn't hear it. It was loud.

[BigWayne]

Wow, some great stuff in there! Thanks for posting. Especially love the last bit about Bill George -- if true, that's a great story.

I remember that the story from when Bones McKinney would tell it on the broadcasts. I thought it was about him and a basketball player though.

[jv001]

I have to agree with the writer. Number one ACC player of all time is David Thompson and Number two ACC player of all time is Christian Laettner. GoDuke!

[Olympic Fan]

Further down, it is a bit clearer that he was talking about the Dixie Classic.

There was definitely a pro-Big Four vibe at the Dixie Classic. Locals were proud of the fact that in the 12 years of the classic, no outside team ever won.

Probably the greatest day in Big Four history was Dec. 31, 1958 -- the final day of the 1958-59 Dixie Classic.

It started with Wake beating Yale (an Ivy League contender) in the seventh place game.
Next, Duke beat Louisville in the fifth place game -- Louisville would reach the 1959 Final Four.
Next, UNC beat No. 2 Cincinnati (led by Oscar Robertson) in the third place game.
Finally, NC State (which had upset Cincinnati the day before in the semis) beat No. 8 Michigan State (with Jumping Johnny Green) in the title game.

I guarantee you that fans from the three rival Big Four schools cheered for the fourth Big Four team that day.

The UNC hate was just starting about that time. From 1946-56, NC State was the power and the team to beat. There was no ABC club for a mediocre UNC team. I don't recall people hating State. After UNC won in 1957, the growing arrogance of McGuire and the UNC fans -- and their were a lot more UNC fans than State, Duke or Wake fans -- created resentment. Plus, McGuire coached his teams to be punks -- UNC was involved in more fights on the court than the rest of the ACC put together ... until McGuire went to South Carolina and Roche, Ribock and company set new heights of thuggery.

My point is that by the end of the Dixie Classic in 1960-61, UNC hate, while growing, had not grown to he point where rival fans would pull against the Heels outside the ACC. And Duke hate was still far, far in the future.

The Big Four was a different story. Since it was all head-to-head among the Big Four teams, there wasn't much Big Four solidarity. It was a great event until Dean Smith -- and Dean Smith alone -- killed it.

[OldPhiKap]

The title of the thread is incomplete. Sure, Dean Smith hated shaking hands. He also hated children, puppies, and rainbows after a rain storm.

[Danke Shane]

Did the Big Four games count towards your ACC record? Or were those "out of conference" games against conference opponents?

[AIRFORCEDUKIE]

They should do something similar now. Make it an early season challenge to garner more eyes to college hoops. Call it the Tobacco Road Challenge or classic, and get four highly ranked teams to come in and play Wake, State, UNC, and Duke in Greensboro or Charlotte. Get all the fans together for a big day of or 2 days of hoops. That would be a really fun event for the locals.

[FerryFor50]

The title of the thread is incomplete. Sure, Dean Smith hated shaking hands. He also hated children, puppies, and rainbows after a rain storm.

But I thought Dean Smith was "nothing but class"?

[Tripping William]

But I thought Dean Smith was "nothing but class"?

Rick Robey begs to differ.

[devildeac]

But I thought Dean Smith was founder of "no need for class"?

FIFY.

[Olympic Fan]

Did the Big Four games count towards your ACC record? Or were those "out of conference" games against conference opponents?

The Big Four games were OOC games.

But remember, that was in an era when the ACC was seven teams, so you just had 12 ACC games. It really wasn't that big a burden. That might have had something to do with Dean's killing it -- the Big Four ended soon after Georgia Tech joined the ACC and the number of conference games rose to 14.

But the real reason was that Smith and UNC felt like they were carrying the rest of the Big Four at the box office. Allow me to explain.

There were a number of great events in the 50s, 60s and 70s that helped promote basketball in the state. The greatest was the Dixie Classic from 1950 (actually Dec. 1949) to Dec. 1960. Four outside teams played the Big Four in a tournament. Since it was a real tournament, the Big Four teams often met in the semifinals and finals (and consolation rounds). Those games did not count as conference games.

Dean didn't kill the Dixie Classic -- Governor Terry Sanford and UNC President William Friday did, in response to the gambling scandal at UNC and NC State.

The loss of the Dixie Classic left a holiday void that was filled by some lame doubleheaders in Reynolds (called the Triangle Classic) and Greensboro. Duke and Wake even played a non-conference game against each other in Greensboro for a couple of years. Nothing worked until the Big Four Tournament was born in Greensboro, starting in December of 1970. The first tournament fell short of a sellout, but it soon became such a huge event that it was only rivaled by the ACC Tournament in March. The four Big Four teams would play each other in a tournament format -- and again, the games didn't count in the ACC standings

Dean killed it (1) because he wanted to control his own schedule, but mainly because (2) he thought UNC was the reason that the Greensboro Coliseum filled up for the event. Arrogant as that was, there was some truth to it -- UNC could play an OOC game in Greensboro and pack the place. None of the other three Big Four schools could fill it up on their own -- or even in pairs.

He did the same thing to two events in Charlotte. One was the North-South Doubleheader in the old Coliseum on Independence Blvd. That would be a two night event that matched UNC and NC State against Clemson and South Carolina. The second night, the two North Carolina schools would switch opponents. Those games DID count in the conference standings -- each school would give up one conference home game a year.

The event started to slide after South Carolina pulled out after 1969 ... Clemson pulled out after 1973. The event continued with non-conference teams like Georgia Tech, Virginia Tech, St. Joseph's, Furman and The Citadel serving as opponents. But Dean killed it after 1984 because he thought UNC was singlehandedly providing the sellouts.

The same reasoning applied to the Tournament of Champions in the early 1990s. It started in 1988 with the idea that UNC and NC State would host a four-team tournament on alternate years. It worked out that way until Dean (and the tournament organizers) realized that UNC was selling out their years while the place was barely two-thirds full when State was hosting. Starting in 1992, UNC hosted every year.

Not saying that Dean was a crook or anything ... just that he only cared about what was best for UNC basketball -- not for what was vest for basketball in the state. He never hesitated to use UNC's clout to get what he wanted.

[Duvall]

This is muddled, I think:

The Coliseum in those days would be full more than an hour before the first game. It was packed. People would get there to watch the pregame drills. It started with the Duke section of the crowd and they started yelling at UNC about the final regular season game. And the UNC fans, which had about one-third of the Coliseum because they bought everybody else’s tickets, started yelling “J.R. Reid! J.R. Reid!” The Duke fans came back with “J.R. Can’t Read!” even though he had been accepted into both schools.

Dean Smith found out about everything. He got so mad about it that he made it into an issue. It was a big news story and Sports Illustrated did a big thing on it about SAT scores. As it turned out, J.R. made a legitimate, very good score.

As I recall, or rather recall reading, it was UNC's Scott Williams that had a very good SAT score, and Dean deliberately conflated the two to confuse the press.

[jimsumner]

The Greensboro Coliseum never was nor has been as loud as it was during the Big Four tournament. During his first Big Four game (against UNC) Gene Banks was called for a technical foul for scoring on a break away after a whistle. He didn't hear it and neither did hardly anyone else. I was sitting behind the Duke bench and I didn't hear it. The coaching staff didn't hear it. It was loud.

Banks was T'd up for dunking in a dead-ball situation. That was actually a rule for the first few years after the dunk was reinstated. No dunking during a dead ball.

[-jk]

I think that might still be the rule.

-jk