MBB: Duke 74, Temple 54 Post-Game Thread

[jv001]

Oh, Lordy.

You know it will be brought sooner than later, ha ha. GoDuke!

[DukieInBrasil]

Although Jahlil's FG% was pretty underwhelming, it's a great sign that he got 7 Oboards. Otherwise, over the year so far, i have been pretty underwhelmed with his rebounding.
Despite Tyus's poor FG shooting, our combo guard PG Quinn Jones still had a pretty excellent game: 7-19 FG (~37% = meh), 4-12 3FG (33% = ok), 4-4 FT (100%= as good as it gets), 10rebs (from the PG spot? I'll take that!), 8 assists vs 3 turns (i'll take that too, thankyouverymuch) plus 5 steals (!!!).
I like what both Jefferson and Winslow provided.
Marshall's performance in relief of Okafor was very impressive.
Allen's performance seemed quite solid, even for its brevity, and Matt Jones's play decent if understated.
The rest of the bench was stench, in particular Sulaimon. I hope he turns it around soon, the guy has too much talent to play this poorly against bad to mediocre teams. Maybe he hasn't fully recovered from the illness?

I'm glad that Dawkins has Stanford on the right track, i just hope that Duke crushes them tonight!!!

[mgtr]

Interesting you should bring up Rasheed at the end of a post regarding Matt underwhelming you.

So, we had two guards off the bench that basically played equal (~15) minutes last night.

First guy: 1-3 from the field (all 3 point shots) for 3 points, 2 assists, 0 turnovers, 0 personal fouls

Second guy: 1-5 from the field (0-1 from beyond the arc) for 2 points, 0-2 from the line, 2 rebounds, but 2 turnovers and 3 personal fouls

Which player's minutes are you happier with? You don't have to be Coach K to see that the first player is giving you a little more in the game than the second guy. Now if you want to argue that Grayson should get more minutes that's another thing, but it's hard to see how you can cut Matt's ("First guy") minutes and give them to Rasheed ("Second guy"). Matt, for all the hand wringing over his shot from beyond the arc, did shoot 33% for 3 last night and got 2 dimes w/no turnovers.

I agree about Matt > Rasheed, although I was not trying to make that point. We know that Rasheed can be very good, just not yet this season. Hopefully he has a repeat of last season, where he eventually gets things figured out.

[OldPhiKap]

Great article on K and Dumphy, thanks Jay Bilas for tweeting the link:

http://www.cbssports.com/collegebask...ond-basketball

[Tripping William]

Great article on K and Dumphy, thanks Jay Bilas for tweeting the link:

http://www.cbssports.com/collegebask...ond-basketball

Yes; this is the the one to which I referred earlier, but was unable to link. A great read. Thanks for finding & posting the link.

[weezie]

Speaking of the Hair thread, K had quite the mop himself all those years ago!

[FireOgilvie]

Points per minute (through 4 games):

Grayson Allen 0.87
Jahlil Okafor 0.64
J Winslow 0.60
Quinn Cook 0.55
Tyus Jones 0.41
A Jefferson 0.36
Matt Jones 0.34
M Plumlee 0.30
Semi Ojeleye 0.28
R Sulaimon 0.27

Grayson Allen is putting up crazy numbers. Not saying he should start or anything, but it's impressive. Instant offense.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

Points per minute (through 4 games):

Grayson Allen 0.87
Jahlil Okafor 0.64
J Winslow 0.60
Quinn Cook 0.55
Tyus Jones 0.41
A Jefferson 0.36
Matt Jones 0.34
M Plumlee 0.30
Semi Ojeleye 0.28
R Sulaimon 0.27

Grayson Allen is putting up crazy numbers. Not saying he should start or anything, but it's impressive. Instant offense.

Is Allen going to be this season's MP3?

[MChambers]

I agree about Matt > Rasheed, although I was not trying to make that point. We know that Rasheed can be very good, just not yet this season. Hopefully he has a repeat of last season, where he eventually gets things figured out.

I think you're jumping to erroneous conclusions about Rasheed. First of all, he was very sick in game #3, and probably affected by it still in game #4. Second, he's being asked to fill a very different role than the other guards. He's the guard asked to harass the other team's point guard more than anyone else. He's also the best offensive player on the second unit, so he has to try to create offense.

I think he's done a decent job this year, and I expect we'll see better as the year goes on.

[Troublemaker]

Matt played well against Temple outside of losing his man on the backdoor once. Not sure why he's received criticism in this thread. He's also been a good shooter this season.

Look, we have 6 perimeter players who can all play well. Each of us will have our own preference for the ordering of those 6, especially players 4 thru 6.

I think we can all agree that Grayson is overqualified to be a 6th perimeter player. But so would Matt be overqualified for that role, and so would Sheed, etc.

There's no need to denigrate one good player to boost another good player that you prefer.

[Ultrarunner]

Marshall played well last night. But I think we lose plenty with him out there instead of Jahlil. Opposing players seem to be much more intimidated by Jahlil than they are of Marshall.

Since Marshall is blocking shots at a rate fifty percent higher than Jahlil, I can't say this bothers much. If the opposition wants to challenge Marshall, he seems quite prepared for it. As a bonus, he is much better, as he should be, at nailing down the defensive rotations.

[Edouble]

Matt played well against Temple outside of losing his man on the backdoor once. Not sure why he's received criticism in this thread. He's also been a good shooter this season.

Look, we have 6 perimeter players who can all play well. Each of us will have our own preference for the ordering of those 6, especially players 4 thru 6.

I think we can all agree that Grayson is overqualified to be a 6th perimeter player. But so would Matt be overqualified for that role, and so would Sheed, etc.

There's no need to denigrate one good player to boost another good player that you prefer.

Although I posted in this thread earlier today attempting to show how Matt's numbers were more valuable to us than Sheed's in the Temple game, I have to say... WOW! I do not think I have seen anyone around here denigrating Matt!

A few people have said something along the lines of "I don't see it", or "I don't get it" (with regard to Matt's defense and overall play being better than the other perimeter bench players) and a few folks have asked for more minutes for Grayson. But to say that people have denigrated Matt is a stretch, I think.

It has been pointed out how Matt came to Duke with a big time shooter's rep and hasn't delivered so far, but I don't think too far from the truth. I would not consider such comments to be in the realm of denigration.

[ACCBBallFan]

I will say that right now the starting five is light years better than the second five. In a tight game, K would almost have to play them as many minutes as they can handle.

That's mostly due to big Jah and Justise.

A lineup with Jah - Justise - Sheed - Grayson and Matt has a nice combination of defense and offense, and disparity no longer measured in light years.

Problem is not all the starting unit (not Jah and not Justise) rests at same time

So if the second unit of MP3 - Semi - Sheed - Grayson and Matt can just tire the non top 25 opponent (assuming that is one that meets your criteria of close game) without giving up too much on +/-, that's all they can reasonably be expected to do, not to increase the lead, just don't give it all back.

Any fouls MP3 draws on starting center or Sheed/Grayson draw on drives past their guard is just a bonus.

The starters return fresh against a tired opponent, kind of like how body blows take their toll on boxers in later rounds.

Being primary options on second five helps Sheed and Grayson (since they are no longer preventing big Jah and Tyus from having ball in their hands) but hurts Matt who gels better with starters. The game for MP3 and for Semi is what it is and not much difference regardless of who they are paired with.

Coach K's goal is not to equalize the two units but if it were, going back to Duke Blue J-Crew vs.non top 25 teams:

Jah
Jefferson
Justise
Jones, M
Jones T

and

MP3
Semi
Sheed
Grayson
Quinn

gives the second unit what it is missing the most a PG, does not hurt Quinn's shoot first role and helps Matt's effectiveness.

Jefferson, Justise and Jones 2 (Thing 2) are perfect complementary players to big Jah and Tyus since the former 3 do not need the ball a lot to be effective. However same is true for Quinn the SG who plays more like Tyus the assist machine except he shoots more than when Quinn is the PG and shoots more than Tyus the pass first PG.

With way Quinn is playing SG, no reason to swap Matt/Quinn other than does not matter against teams like Furman, Army, Elon etc but not Wisky or UCONN.

The second unit gets PT versus lower echelon teams without disrupting the first unit chemistry with Quinn/Matt interchangeable.

Against top 25, MP3 and Matt easily fit into top 7, with court still out on Sheed's ability to adapt his role depending on who he is paired with but likely in top 8 regardless and not much if any PT for Semi or Grayson not as much due to them but rather to who is ahead of them.

[Henderson]

Points per minute (through 4 games):

Grayson Allen 0.87
Jahlil Okafor 0.64
J Winslow 0.60
Quinn Cook 0.55
Tyus Jones 0.41
A Jefferson 0.36
Matt Jones 0.34
M Plumlee 0.30
Semi Ojeleye 0.28
R Sulaimon 0.27

Grayson Allen is putting up crazy numbers. Not saying he should start or anything, but it's impressive. Instant offense.

That's either a very interesting set of stats or a reflection of the weakness of relying heavily on stats in analyzing basketball.

[ACCBBallFan]

That's either a very interesting set of stats or a reflection of the weakness of relying heavily on stats in analyzing basketball.

Other than Grayson who racks his points in end of game situations and taking technical foul shots when subbing in, that's not a bad measure of how effective the Duke players have been

Jahlil Okafor 0.64 because his mere presence changes everything
J Winslow 0.60 because he has been great on both ends
Quinn Cook 0.55 playing so much better as a senior leader
Tyus Jones 0.41 who gets teammates involved and can take over when needed
A Jefferson 0.36 glue guy
Matt Jones 0.34 by default and hitting shots he missed last year, also taking it to hoop more

(insert Sheed here)

M Plumlee 0.30 hustles as Jah's repalcement

(insert Grayson here)

Semi Ojeleye 0.28 apparently his role is to be the gunner when in and sanctioned by coach K since that's his role against Amile in practice

R Sulaimon 0.27 has not yet let game come to him. May also indicate he's doing what K asks, play defense more than offense and why he is ahead of MP3 and Semi in rotation

Due to minimal PT metrics are skewed, Grayson probably belongs between MP3 and Semi.

[Henderson]

Other than Grayson who racks his points in end of game situations and taking technical foul shots when subbing in, that's not a bad measure of how effective the Duke players have been.

I think you may have missed some of the games. This is not an accurate description of Grayson Allen's contributions.

Jahlil Okafor 0.64 because his mere presence changes everything
J Winslow 0.60 because he has been great on both ends
Quinn Cook 0.55 playing so much better as a senior leader
Tyus Jones 0.41 who gets teammates involved and can take over when needed
A Jefferson 0.36 glue guy
Matt Jones 0.34 by default and hitting shots he missed last year, also taking it to hoop more

(insert Sheed here)

M Plumlee 0.30 hustles as Jah's repalcement

(insert Grayson here)

Semi Ojeleye 0.28 apparently his role is to be the gunner when in and sanctioned by coach K since that's his role against Amile in practice

R Sulaimon 0.27 has not yet let game come to him. May also indicate he's doing what K asks, play defense more than offense and why he is ahead of MP3 and Semi in rotation

Due to minimal PT metrics are skewed, Grayson probably belongs between MP3 and Semi.

I think fantasy sports have skewed things a bit. We've all read Moneyball, but you can't coach a team based purely on statistics. At least not college basketball. There's just a lot more going on.

[ACCBBallFan]

I think you may have missed some of the games. This is not an accurate description of Grayson Allen's contributions.

Not sure what you are getting at, I did not say Grayson is Duke's best player, Had him at #9 on overall effectiveness since his contributions were usually after game had been decided.

I have not missed any games.

My point was that Graysin being at the top was only one really out of whack with reality, though I do really like his game. It's just that he has Quinn, Jones 1, Jones 2 (Thing 1, Thing 2) Matt and not necessarily on this year's metrics Sheed ahead of him, as you can see in the second quote you attached.

I generously placed Sheed up a few notches, ahead of MP3 and probably should have had him behind MP3.

Here are the YTD +/- as opposed to points per minute where Grayson is #8, Sheed #9 and Semi #10 which explains why K had gone with others in his top 7. He has shown some favoritism of Rasheed over Grayson based on experience and past performance not this year's as well as Sheed's dramatic turnaround last season.

YTD min YTD +/- Player

132 95 Tyus Jones *
161 89 Quinn Cook *
141 81 Jahlil Okafor *

55 74 Marshall Plumlee
88 66 Matt Jones

140 63 Justise Winslow *
116 63 Amile Jefferson *

38 59 Grayson Allen

81 41 Rasheed Sulaimon
36 40 Semi Ojeleye