Check out how not obsessed we are with Kentucky

[Edouble]

Where are Bob Huggins & Melvin Levett when we need them?

This is esoteric. Care to explain?

[Tripping William]

This is esoteric. Care to explain?

Finals of the 1998 Great Alaska Shootout against Cincinnati. The only regular season game the juggernaut '99 Duke team lost was on a last-second hook-and-lateral resulting in a dunk by Levett. Huggins, of course, was the Cincy coach. And then UConn came along in the national finals and, well, let's stop the painful discussion at that.

I would not at all mind seeing '15 Duke play the '99 UConn role against The Seemingly Invincibles from Lexington. tux's post at #57 in this thread makes that precise point.

[Edouble]

Finals of the 1998 Great Alaska Shootout against Cincinnati. The only regular season game the juggernaut '99 Duke team lost was on a last-second hook-and-lateral resulting in a dunk by Levett. Huggins, of course, was the Cincy coach. And then UConn came along in the national finals and, well, let's stop the painful discussion at that.

I would not at all mind seeing '15 Duke play the '99 UConn role against The Seemingly Invincibles from Lexington. tux's post at #57 in this thread makes that precise point.

Yeah, I know who they are and I knew that you were referencing that game. I guess I just didn't get it because the thread is sort of going in the direction of who could beat UK in the NCAAs (Wisconsin? Duke?) and you were talking about an early season loss, so I guess I was confused.

[Tripping William]

Yeah, I know who they are and I knew that you were referencing that game. I guess I just didn't get it because the thread is sort of going in the direction of who could beat UK in the NCAAs (Wisconsin? Duke?) and you were talking about an early season loss, so I guess I was confused.

Of course, I would prefer (relish, actually) having someone do to UK what Melven-and-Huggy did to Duke in the regular season. That was ultimately my (perhaps obscure) point.

[Des Esseintes]

Yep. It has been a long time since I've seen a college basketball team as completely dominant as UK this year. Still, it isn't over, and many seemingly dominant teams have faltered, including Duke. You have to earn it on the court...unlike say, UNC's 1924 "championship."

I'm sorry, but this is crazy or lazy or...something. UK has played a single dominant game against a quality opponent. You haven't seen a team lately play a single dominant game against a quality opponent? We don't even need to leave the realm of recent Duke losses to find those. Louisville thrashed a Duke team two years ago that was probably the second-best team in the country. In the NCAA tournament. THAT was a special performance by a great team. Or the year before, Carolina came in to Cameron, scored the first 200 points (100% accurate statement, I believe), and mostly cruised to twenty point victory. In so doing, the Heels sewed up the ACC regular season title. THAT was a big-time performance. And you know what unites those blowouts, other than that they were played for extremely high stakes unlike UK-KU? They were wins against teams that beat them that very same season. Because one game, no matter how decisive, cannot say that much, even about settling which of the two teams on the court is better. No one is saying Kentucky cannot reach amazing heights, but to say it with certainty now is the most adolescent kind of jumping to conclusions.

[COYS]

I'm sorry, but this is crazy or lazy or...something. UK has played a single dominant game against a quality opponent. You haven't seen a team lately play a single dominant game against a quality opponent? We don't even need to leave the realm of recent Duke losses to find those. Louisville thrashed a Duke team two years ago that was probably the second-best team in the country. In the NCAA tournament. THAT was a special performance by a great team. Or the year before, Carolina came in to Cameron, scored the first 200 points (100% accurate statement, I believe), and mostly cruised to twenty point victory. In so doing, the Heels sewed up the ACC regular season title. THAT was a big-time performance. And you know what unites those blowouts, other than that they were played for extremely high stakes unlike UK-KU? They were wins against teams that beat them that very same season. Because one game, no matter how decisive, cannot say that much, even about settling which of the two teams on the court is better. No one is saying Kentucky cannot reach amazing heights, but to say it with certainty now is the most adolescent kind of jumping to conclusions.

Again, already mentioned upthread, but perhaps the best example is in 2005 when the '05-'06 #1 Devils beat the ever-living snot out of #2 Texas with JJ Redick doing THIS. (For the record, I actually think more of JJ's shots hit nothing but net than hit the rim in this game). I was ready to buy Final 4 tickets right then and there. Unfortunately for me (and for the team and Duke fans, everywhere), my schedule only allowed me to settle for Sweet 16 tickets in Atlanta . . . and that didn't turn out so well.

[Des Esseintes]

Again, already mentioned upthread, but perhaps the best example is in 2005 when the '05-'06 #1 Devils beat the ever-living snot out of #2 Texas with JJ Redick doing THIS. (For the record, I actually think more of JJ's shots hit nothing but net than hit the rim in this game). I was ready to buy Final 4 tickets right then and there. Unfortunately for me (and for the team and Duke fans, everywhere), my schedule only allowed me to settle for Sweet 16 tickets in Atlanta . . . and that didn't turn out so well.

Absolutely. I was one of those who mentioned that game. Not only did Duke lose early in the tournament that year, it also lost early to LSU. LSU, whose NBA talent consisted of a freshman Tyrus Thomas (not a single good year in the Association) and a senior guard who may have briefly appeared on a training camp roster at some point. Coached by a guy a couple of years from getting fired. Had someone suggested after the Texas game that a mediocre SEC team could compete with Duke, that person would have been...far more understanding of team sports than this thread.

[TheDuckStore]

Absolutely. I was one of those who mentioned that game. Not only did Duke lose early in the tournament that year, it also lost early to LSU. LSU, whose NBA talent consisted of a freshman Tyrus Thomas (not a single good year in the Association) and a senior guard who may have briefly appeared on a training camp roster at some point. Coached by a guy a couple of years from getting fired. Had someone suggested after the Texas game that a mediocre SEC team could compete with Duke, that person would have been...far more understanding of team sports than this thread.

Wasn't Glen "Big Baby" Davis on that LSU squad?

[Kedsy]

Wasn't Glen "Big Baby" Davis on that LSU squad?

Yes, he was.

[Wander]

Wasn't Glen "Big Baby" Davis on that LSU squad?

Also Garrett Temple, i.e. the guy who guarded Redick. He's not an all-star or anything but he is a current rotation player for the Wizards (actually started every game so far due to a Beal injury). That LSU squad actually had a good amount of talent.

[Edouble]

Again, already mentioned upthread, but perhaps the best example is in 2005 when the '05-'06 #1 Devils beat the ever-living snot out of #2 Texas with JJ Redick doing THIS. (For the record, I actually think more of JJ's shots hit nothing but net than hit the rim in this game). I was ready to buy Final 4 tickets right then and there. Unfortunately for me (and for the team and Duke fans, everywhere), my schedule only allowed me to settle for Sweet 16 tickets in Atlanta . . . and that didn't turn out so well.

I think the difference is that JJ was hot that day. He was a great, great player, but he was also really hot. A shooter, even one as great as JJ, can go cold.

Kentucky didn't look like they were really clicking on all cylinders against Kansas. Their offense was pretty raw. They just looked... really big! They are physically imposing the way that '91 UNLV was, which I think is the perfect analogy. It's hard to imagine this Kentucky team not bringing that level of defense in most games, because they are quick and huge. Big difference between a whole team's defense, and one player going off on offense against Texas.

I think that Kentucky is so impressive because they look like they are playing far from their potential, and while other teams have room for growth, the Cats may have the most room of all. As a team, they look pretty unpolished. And the unpolished version is like a wrecking ball.

[Duke95]

No one is saying Kentucky cannot reach amazing heights, but to say it with certainty now is the most adolescent kind of jumping to conclusions.

Did anyone say that with certainty, or are you just flailing away at windmills?

Nothing is certain. Injuries, bad games, etc. can happen. Still, what Kentucky has shown this year is beyond impressive. Well, at least on the basketball front.

[Henderson]

Did anyone say that with certainty, or are you just flailing away at windmills?

Nothing is certain. Injuries, bad games, etc. can happen. Still, what Kentucky has shown this year is beyond impressive. Well, at least on the basketball front.

Coming back from being down at the half against Buffalo certainly impressed ... Buffalo.

Kansas shot 20% against Kentucky and 56% from the line. You gotta give some credit to UK's defense for the FG%, but not all. And they didn't guard the FT line. The story line should be as much about how much Kansas sucked in that game. Kansas just didn't show up, and Presbyterian or Fairfield might have beaten them on that night.

This is more about Kansas than Kentucky. On one night. I wouldn't make more of that game than it deserves. I'd say the same thing if Duke had gotten thumped by MSU or if Kansas had beaten UK by 20. Long season, folks. And the important games are in the spring.

[FireOgilvie]

Given the amount of talk about how tall UK is, I thought a comparison was in order.

Attachment 4505Attachment 4506


The size differential, on average, really isn't that big. Its about an inch. The fact that UK is employing a two guard lineup - using six bigs, allows for three tall interior players to rotate as a unit making their interior height more effective. (Were Sean Obi available, Coach K would have the same option this year.) I have to wonder if UK won't become enamored with and reliant on using size as their principle weapon, potentially creating their own achilles heel if someone gets injured, in foul trouble, etc.

I know Kentucky's defense looked incredible, and perhaps they were really hyped to play KU, but I find it odd that Buffalo and Grand Canyon scored more points against UK than Kansas did. If Kansas and Kentucky played tomorrow, I think it would be a much closer game. We wont' see the Jayhawks that cold too often.

We'll see how the season goes, but a single injury could really impact the line change strategy.

By the way, there were a few DBR naysayers and stasticians who pooh-poohed the line change strategy as a gimmick last year when Coach K used it. I wonder if Calipari will see it that way when SEC play roles around.

Overall, UK's starting lineup is almost 3 inches taller than ours - 6'8.6" versus 6'5.8". They all have huge wingspans too. Their backup 5 is still very big (6'6.8") despite having a 5'9" PG. They play massive guys at the 3 through 5, and they have at least 3 or 4 first round draft pick big men. Pretty crazy on paper. Also, your list didn't have Marcus Lee for some reason. But given all that, I still think they are beatable. It would probably just take some team to get hot from 3 plus some luck.

[Kfanarmy]

Overall, UK's starting lineup is almost 3 inches taller than ours - 6'8.6" versus 6'5.8". They all have huge wingspans too. Their backup 5 is still very big (6'6.8") despite having a 5'9" PG. They play massive guys at the 3 through 5, and they have at least 3 or 4 first round draft pick big men. Pretty crazy on paper. Also, your list didn't have Marcus Lee for some reason. But given all that, I still think they are beatable. It would probably just take some team to get hot from 3 plus some luck.

Yep. I meant to list Marcus and instead of Derek...Derek has only played 4 minutes...but they are both 6'9 so switching them would have no effect on the Avg Ht. There are several different ways to compare, but I don't think the height differential is so vast that it can't be compensated for in a variety of ways.

[Kfanarmy]

Absolutely. I was one of those who mentioned that game. Not only did Duke lose early in the tournament that year, it also lost early to LSU. LSU, whose NBA talent consisted of a freshman Tyrus Thomas (not a single good year in the Association) and a senior guard who may have briefly appeared on a training camp roster at some point. Coached by a guy a couple of years from getting fired. Had someone suggested after the Texas game that a mediocre SEC team could compete with Duke, that person would have been...far more understanding of team sports than this thread.

That mediocre LSU team was allowed to maul one of the best shooters in the country for the entire game...to the point where the LSU guard said after the game that the refs weren't calling his fouls so he just kept fouling. I recall JJ being pulled sidewise during a jumper with no whistle at all from the ref standing a few feet away. Should'a been an investigation that night; JJ got mugged a dozen times or more.

[English]

I think the difference is that JJ was hot that day. He was a great, great player, but he was also really hot. A shooter, even one as great as JJ, can go cold.

Kentucky didn't look like they were really clicking on all cylinders against Kansas. Their offense was pretty raw. They just looked... really big! They are physically imposing the way that '91 UNLV was, which I think is the perfect analogy. It's hard to imagine this Kentucky team not bringing that level of defense in most games, because they are quick and huge. Big difference between a whole team's defense, and one player going off on offense against Texas.

I think that Kentucky is so impressive because they look like they are playing far from their potential, and while other teams have room for growth, the Cats may have the most room of all. As a team, they look pretty unpolished. And the unpolished version is like a wrecking ball.

Well, KU got outclassed for certain. But after UK blocked their first four drives, they shrunk up like a raisin in the lane. I personally think that UK's second platoon is filler and overrated, but will benefit from the fatigue and deer-in-headlights from other teams' starters getting battered by their starters. As someone up thread mentioned, a well-executed offense would run that second unit out of the gym. Kelly Oubre Jr did that at the end of the half to the tune of about 10pts in a row.

I honestly don't think Calipari can run the platoons in any close games because the first unit is so overtly better than the second that, in a close game, he'd be sacrificing a result, or at least the best possibility at a result. UK was very ordinary on offense, despite cleaning the O glass, and that was against a KU team that has virtually no front court outside of a frosh 6'8 Alexander and Ellis. UK's offense revolved around their guards missing shots and then getting offensive boards.

UK's sheer volume of players is going go psych teams out. They have four guys taller then most teams' tallest player. But if a quality team puts them on their heels attacking and gets a front court player or two into foul trouble, their platoon system goes out the window. As an example, Cauley-Stein got temporarily injured and Lyles played both platoons. Marcus Lee and Dakari Johnson are not exactly lighting the court on fire on the offensive side of things. Although, they certainly could put an opponent into the bonus quickly with fouls.

I couldn't be more excited for UNC to play that team in Rupp. UNC has the size to challenge them, and, because UK is at home, I think they'll win. However, I think if there's an instance of Calipari abandoning his platoons in favor of winning, that's it. Seriously, that first unit is head and shoulders better than the second, unless Booker starts draining threes. I don't think that's happening in a big game like that--he looked like a JV guy against KU when the game was (remotely) tight.

[Des Esseintes]

Did anyone say that with certainty, or are you just flailing away at windmills?

Nothing is certain. Injuries, bad games, etc. can happen. Still, what Kentucky has shown this year is beyond impressive. Well, at least on the basketball front.

No. No, it's not. Teams play amazing games all the time, decimating quality opponents in the process. In 3/5 of an NFL season:

New England has housed Cincy, which looked like the best team in football at the time. (Cincy was not the best team in football, but it was, you know, early in the season.)
New England has housed Denver, which looked like the best team in football at the time.
New England has housed Indianapolis, who was playing for the driver's seat to homefield throughout the playoffs.
Kansas City has crushed New England.
Tennessee has crushed Kansas City.
Cincy and Indianapolis have crushed Tennessee.
Cleveland has destroyed Cincinnati, ending Cincy's pretensions to contention.
Until Cincy dominated New Orleans.
New Orleans has run over Green Bay.
Green Bay has annihilated Philly.
Seattle has housed Green Bay.
And so on. This list isn't even close to comprehensive.

Every one of those teams is good, except for Tennessee. They have all looked like worldbeaters on a particular Sunday, sometimes multiple Sundays. But only one of them is going to win a title. Can you say with confidence which one? More to the point, probably none of them are historically good. You know how you look "beyond impressive"? You crush teams for the better part of a season. You stomp lots of good clubs and you take care of business against the lesser competition. Otherwise, you just played one good game. Which, congratulations, but those are dime a dozen. Every season will feature a bunch of them.

Remember two years ago, when Duke--draws breath--beat #3 Kentucky, crushed a good Minnesota team, beat VCU, beat #2 Louisville, and beat #4 Ohio State, all in the space of 15 days? That was AMAZING. Is it even a question which is the more impressive accomplishment between that run, which basically no one outside this board even remembers, and UK's domination of KU? Duke's run is far greater. Were we talking undefeated season then? I don't think we were. Probably because that Duke team didn't have a gimmick rotation or an army of 6'11" dudes with questionable ball skills. People couldn't dream up narratives about paradigm shifts and the Future of Basketball with that Duke team. And look, in hindsight the Duke run wasn't quite as amazing as it seemed at the time (while remaining still very amazing indeed). Kentucky and tOSU proved overrated. But that's kind of the point. We don't know how good this KU team is either. Drawing massive conclusions off immediate results is silly. Saying anything that happens in a single game is "beyond impressive" is silly. Sometimes a good team plays at its ceiling on the exact same day that another good team plays at its floor. In the absence of other data points, one great game is barely meaningful.

[Troublemaker]

my personal favorite, Tyler Ulis, who I think is their best (college) guard. He's an anomaly on this roster, standing at just 5'9", but he's extremely feisty, he's very quick, with good hands, can shoot from deep, and has a pass first mentality. I'd say their backcourt is pretty formidable, and their weaknesses are well covered by the rest of the roster.

I'm impressed, very impressed by the play of Tyler Ullis. He was Kentucky's backup plan to Tyus Jones. It really goes to show the power of the Kentucky brand and of Calipari's recruiting machine that a player as good as Ullis was willing to wait, knowing he was not the top choice, just for the chance to be part of what is going on at Kentucky. Wow.

I agree with you guys. For all the talk about Kentucky's size and length, their most fearsome player to me is the 5'9" PG. (This sentence, btw, will be repeated in some form dozens of times this season by sportswriters/bloggers.) Especially vis a vis a matchup with Duke, he's a lightning-quick playmaker that can wreak havoc on our defense. If I had the power to make one UK player ineligible for this season, it'd be Ulis. They more or less have two of everything else anyway.

[Duke95]

No. No, it's not. Teams play amazing games all the time, decimating quality opponents in the process. ...
Drawing massive conclusions off immediate results is silly. Saying anything that happens in a single game is "beyond impressive" is silly. Sometimes a good team plays at its ceiling on the exact same day that another good team plays at its floor. In the absence of other data points, one great game is barely meaningful.

Ok, we'll count you as the one person who was not impressed with Kentucky's dominating 32 point win over a Top 5 team.

Not exactly sure what you mean by the "absence of other data points." You do realize that many of the key players on Kentucky's team were there last year when they lost in the NCAA finals, right? What they've shown so far this year is that they've gotten stronger than last year's team.