I mourn for UNC

[TKG]

LOL, so true. I don't see Dickie V. coming down hard on Roy or Carolina. Just not in his DNA to be as critical as he should be.

Dickie V. made his career as a cheerleader not as an analyst. That will not change.

[alteran]

Carol Folt is on the clock now. Amazingly, I truly think she wants to fix her institutions very damaged reputation, and the more Roy speaks, the closer he is to
getting pushed out...I really believe that.

For the life of me, I cannot figure out why so many folks seem to think Carol Folt is the one honest soul at UNC that really wants to get to the bottom of this.

Folt either masterminded, participated in, or tacitly approved the smear campaign against Mary Willingham. She allowed Willingham to be marginalized and eventually forced out.

Folt is part of the problem, folks. It's conceivable that the crisis has reached the level that a smart cover up artist like herself realizes that it's time to cut her losses-- but her role in this makes it pretty clear that's the only way she'll do anything, and whatever she does will be the minimum she can get away with.

[superdave]

That's why I don't believe the "everyone else does it" argument. With all the poking around the NCAA has done at places like Auburn, Memphis, Florida State or Miami to name a few, you'd think that if everybody did it they would've found this going on at other places. If everyone has fake classes, why not send a few people to whomever is signing Eddie Sutton's or John Calipari's paychecks, and they're certain to be there, right? And considering these places have a much lower academic reputation and don't get the benefit of the doubt unc does, the infamous "court of public opinion" would already have done half the ncaa's job.

But they spent a decade trying to staple-gun Jerry Tarkanian's testicles to the ceiling and never found anything like this at unlv. When unlv was the academic laughingstock of Division I.

So either nobody else cheats like unc did, or everybody else is smarter than unc at not getting caught. Why couldn't unc figure out whatever way everyone else was cheating, and just cheat that way?

OK, Tar Heels, which is it?

Can we redesign the banner at the top of DBR to be this picture?

[Zeb]

I am curious to hear from Dickie V.

I will never think this on any topic.

[devildeac]

For the life of me, I cannot figure out why so many folks seem to think Carol Folt is the one honest soul at UNC that really wants to get to the bottom of this.

Folt either masterminded, participated in, or tacitly approved the smear campaign against Mary Willingham. She allowed Willingham to be marginalized and eventually forced out.

Folt is part of the problem, folks. It's conceivable that the crisis has reached the level that a smart cover up artist like herself realizes that it's time to cut her losses-- but her role in this makes it pretty clear that's the only way she'll do anything, and whatever she does will be the minimum she can get away with.

Here's one person's opinion from a Dartmouth blog from 2012:

http://www.dartblog.com/data/2012/04/010173.php

A few quotes:


"As the saying goes among faculty members, when Carol Folt gives you a great many reasons for a decision, you can be sure that the real one is not among them."

"Folt’s handling of the grading controversy in Professor Jon Appleton’s class several years ago was shocking for its violation of academic freedom, and it drove Appleton from the College."

"Today’s D has a story entitled Faculty say Folt will pursue Kim’s goals. Of note is that any professor voicing criticism of interim-President Folt in the piece does so anonymously. Why? Well, as we have noted before, a full and frank airing of differences is not Folt’s forté; in fact, cross Carol and you will pay the price."


Just providing a little fodder for discussion. I vaguely remember some "controversies" about her appointment at c*rolina and I'm sure anyone chosen for such a position has a few "skeletons" in their past.

[Tom B.]

LOL, so true. I don't see Dickie V. coming down hard on Roy or Carolina. Just not in his DNA to be as critical as he should be.

I fully expect Vitale to give Roy Williams an on-air tongue bath at his first opportunity. Vitale was already reciting the Carolina party line last season -- why should he change now? He'll go off on the academic advisors and professors who were involved, and the NCAA of course, but won't touch Roy -- in fact, he'll continue to praise Roy effusively as someone who does things "the right way" and "runs a class program." At which point my head will explode from the massive rapid buildup of internal vomit pressure.

[Duvall]

I fully expect Vitale to give Roy Williams an on-air tongue bath at his first opportunity. Vitale was already reciting the Carolina party line last season -- why should he change now? He'll go off on the academic advisors and professors who were involved, and the NCAA of course, but won't touch Roy -- in fact, he'll continue to praise Roy effusively as someone who does things "the right way" and "runs a class program." At which point my head will explode from the massive rapid buildup of internal vomit pressure.

This is exactly right. Vitale is a shameless apologist for coaches and unabashed fan of UNC on a good day. Now that ESPN needs to rehabilitate the North Carolina brand, his hucksterism will be worse than ever.

[wilko]

So...lets assume the worst and that UNC loses its accreditation...

Do they have to leave the ACC as a default action of losing accreditation?
And if so... Are they subject to the same fines, fees, rights and grants under those circumstances? Is it the same end result as if they just pulled a UMd and just went to another conference or have they found a back door to leave the ACC penalty free?

Just curious...

[duke79]

I fully expect Vitale to give Roy Williams an on-air tongue bath at his first opportunity. Vitale was already reciting the Carolina party line last season -- why should he change now? He'll go off on the academic advisors and professors who were involved, and the NCAA of course, but won't touch Roy -- in fact, he'll continue to praise Roy effusively as someone who does things "the right way" and "runs a class program." At which point my head will explode from the massive rapid buildup of internal vomit pressure.

LOL...very funny....but also very true. Although I'm not sure Dickie V. will excoriate the academic advisors and professors in this case (I mean...let's face reality...Dickie V's forte does not involve commenting on the "student" part of "student-athlete". I think he knows his limitations). My guess is he will throw out some palaver about a few people had done some bad things but Carolina is taking the steps to rectify the problems and everything will be OK over in the Hole. And then he will talk about what a great human being and great coach Roy is. No doubt it will be nauseating but I'm sure he would do the same thing if Duke and Coach K were in a similar position. You truly have to take him with a grain of salt.

[uh_no]

So...lets assume the worst and that UNC loses its accreditation...

Do they have to leave the ACC as a default action of losing accreditation?
And if so... Are they subject to the same fines, fees, rights and grants under those circumstances? Is it the same end result as if they just pulled a UMd and just went to another conference or have they found a back door to leave the ACC penalty free?

Just curious...

the article is a bit sensationalist. there is little chance UNC loses their accreditation. there are two official stages before that: warning and probation...neither of which UNC was put on after the martin report. they were being "monitored"...

[sagegrouse]

Nah, Duke should stay out of it and let Ol' Roy dig his own grave. The more he speaks, the worse UNC looks. The long time fraud was designed and perpetrated by UNC people and there's
zero reason to allow them to say they're the victim of some anti-UNC conspiracy.

Carol Folt is on the clock now. Amazingly, I truly think she wants to fix her institutions very damaged reputation, and the more Roy speaks, the closer he is to
getting pushed out...I really believe that.

For the life of me, I cannot figure out why so many folks seem to think Carol Folt is the one honest soul at UNC that really wants to get to the bottom of this.

Folt either masterminded, participated in, or tacitly approved the smear campaign against Mary Willingham. She allowed Willingham to be marginalized and eventually forced out.

Folt is part of the problem, folks. It's conceivable that the crisis has reached the level that a smart cover up artist like herself realizes that it's time to cut her losses-- but her role in this makes it pretty clear that's the only way she'll do anything, and whatever she does will be the minimum she can get away with.

I expect Folt has been told by the Board to "fix" UNC's reputation, or -- truly -- protect what's left of it. The communications to UNC big cheeses from the NCAA and the SACS must be blistering. We saw what Emmert said heatedly, when he can hardly comment on a matter under consideration by the NCAA.

[wilko]

the article is a bit sensationalist. there is little chance UNC loses their accreditation. there are two official stages before that: warning and probation...neither of which UNC was put on after the martin report. they were being "monitored"...

Prolly very true... just playing it thru..

Brings up a valid question tho - for ANY school...
How is the ACC membership/conference language set up for such a situation. Surely leaving the league is leaving the league, whether its a jump to the B1G whatever... or they lose academic accreditation. I would hope its the same...

UMd would be several million dollars richer by keeping the exit fee if they only made fake classes in their departure, right? yes or no?

[budwom]

For the life of me, I cannot figure out why so many folks seem to think Carol Folt is the one honest soul at UNC that really wants to get to the bottom of this.

Folt either masterminded, participated in, or tacitly approved the smear campaign against Mary Willingham. She allowed Willingham to be marginalized and eventually forced out.

Folt is part of the problem, folks. It's conceivable that the crisis has reached the level that a smart cover up artist like herself realizes that it's time to cut her losses-- but her role in this makes it pretty clear that's the only way she'll do anything, and whatever she does will be the minimum she can get away with.

FWIW I don't believe I said a single thing about her being honest, did I? I merely said she wants to fix unc's damaged reputation, and Ol' Roy's dyspeptic blathering can't be helping.

[alteran]

FWIW I don't believe I said a single thing about her being honest, did I? I merely said she wants to fix unc's damaged reputation, and Ol' Roy's dyspeptic blathering can't be helping.

Sorry to mischaracterize what you wrote. I read "Amazingly, I truly think she wants to fix her institutions very damaged reputation" as meaning she sincerely wants to fix the real problems, not cynically wants to fix the reputation (only).

Sounds like we're on the same page.

FWIW, I've heard/read a number of people describe her as the one person trying truly to clean things up, and I don't see that at all.

[jimsumner]

The fact that Folt keeps referring to this as the Crowder-Nyang'oro scandal or some such suggests to me that she's more interested in damage control than getting to the bottom of this.

[JasonEvans]

Followed by Klemnop streaking down Franklin Street

Ummm, I think we can skip the TV coverage of that.

[Skitzle]

The fact that Folt keeps referring to this as the Crowder-Nyang'oro scandal or some such suggests to me that she's more interested in damage control than getting to the bottom of this.

Exactly. More of the same. This is getting ridiculous.


Do damage control, doesn't work, do more investigation.

Investigation report comes out, do more damage control, doesn't work, do another investigation

Investigation report comes out, do more damage control, guess what happens next?

[cspan37421]

That's why I don't believe the "everyone else does it" argument. With all the poking around the NCAA has done at places like Auburn, Memphis, Florida State or Miami to name a few, you'd think that if everybody did it they would've found this going on at other places. If everyone has fake classes, why not send a few people to whomever is signing Eddie Sutton's or John Calipari's paychecks, and they're certain to be there, right? And considering these places have a much lower academic reputation and don't get the benefit of the doubt unc does, the infamous "court of public opinion" would already have done half the ncaa's job.

But they spent a decade trying to staple-gun Jerry Tarkanian's testicles to the ceiling and never found anything like this at unlv. When unlv was the academic laughingstock of Division I.

So either nobody else cheats like unc did, or everybody else is smarter than unc at not getting caught. Why couldn't unc figure out whatever way everyone else was cheating, and just cheat that way?

OK, Tar Heels, which is it?

Seems to me that there was a Sports Illustrated article not long ago that outlined in significant detail precisely how everyone else does "it." In this case, "it" referred to boosters playing players (mostly football), but the principal counterargument to your position is the same ... all the poking around at the southern schools you mention has not stopped, let alone uncovered, this apparently widespread practice. So by extension, it seems to me that the NCAA could be equally blind to widespread academic fraud.

My guess is a variation on "everyone else is smarter than UNC at not getting caught." To get away with cheating for 20 years is a pretty substantial accomplishment. I wouldn't say they were dumb because they got caught, but someone was bound to get snagged sometime and someone else was going to pull on the thread of that snag, and the whole thing unravels. It just happened to unravel at UNC ... they were just slightly less vigilant & thorough at keeping evidence of their fraud from seeing the light of day. Eventually something gave.

I also suspect that there's more willful blindness at other schools. I am not persuaded that many fans and alums at certain SEC schools are losing sleep over the potential that their student-athletes might be enrolled in fraudulent classes to keep them eligible. Those most likely to blow the whistle would probably be inviting unwelcome attention to themselves. As Sir Charles said, I could be wrong, but I doubt it.

[sagegrouse]

Seems to me that there was a Sports Illustrated article not long ago that outlined in significant detail precisely how everyone else does "it." In this case, "it" referred to boosters playing players (mostly football), but the principal counterargument to your position is the same ... all the poking around at the southern schools you mention has not stopped, let alone uncovered, this apparently widespread practice. So by extension, it seems to me that the NCAA could be equally blind to widespread academic fraud.

My guess is a variation on "everyone else is smarter than UNC at not getting caught." To get away with cheating for 20 years is a pretty substantial accomplishment. I wouldn't say they were dumb because they got caught, but someone was bound to get snagged sometime and someone else was going to pull on the thread of that snag, and the whole thing unravels. It just happened to unravel at UNC ... they were just slightly less vigilant & thorough at keeping evidence of their fraud from seeing the light of day. Eventually something gave.

I also suspect that there's more willful blindness at other schools. I am not persuaded that many fans and alums at certain SEC schools are losing sleep over the potential that their student-athletes might be enrolled in fraudulent classes to keep them eligible. Those most likely to blow the whistle would probably be inviting unwelcome attention to themselves. As Sir Charles said, I could be wrong, but I doubt it.

I think the "back story," which is only indirectly favorable to UNC, is that the extreme academic illegality of their violation suggests that at UNC it was difficult to achieve eligibility for poorly prepared, unmotivated athletes. Therefore, why so blatantly awful -- a departmental assistant masquerading as a prof and acting as a forger; for so long -- 18 years; and for so many -- 1,500 athletes? And maybe, at the football factories, it isn't very hard at all.

[alteran]

Followed by Klemnop streaking down Franklin Street

Ummm, I think we can skip the TV coverage of that.

UNC isn't worthy of having Klemnop sunbathing on their lousy sundial.