I mourn for UNC

[JasonEvans]

I'm wondering how the rest of you feel about something that just occurred to me fairly recently.

I don't think I had any idea how bad this scandal was until the Wainstein report came out. I mean, I knew about a lot of this stuff, as we all did, but it is so much more concrete now and it is far worse than I had imagined.

The fact that there are emails talking about specific grades the players need, the fact that there are PowerPoint slides detailing the scope of the academic fraud to members of the athletic department, and the fact that the director of UNC's center for ethics was not only complicit in all this but actually seemed to be in one of the people engineering some of the worst of the fraud is just unbelievable. I mean, how much worse could it be? I suppose there could be emails from coaches like Dean or Roy that directly implicate them. That would be worse. I was going to say it would be worse if there was evidence that some kids who wanted an education were forced into the sham classes and did not get an education as a result, but we know that exact thing did happen (recall that Sean May interview where he said he wanted to major in communications but was told to get a degree is AFAM instead -- why aren't more people writing about this?!?!).

Bottom line though --did any of you suspect that it was as bad as this? When all this started it was just some football players getting to go to parties and maybe being funneled a little bit of money through an assistant coach who was secretly on the payroll of an agent. And we all thought that was a really bad scandal. compared to this, that's freaking jaywalking.

Think for a moment about what college athletics have gone through in the past few years. Penn State and UNC were two of the paragons of virtue in the athletic world; two schools that succeeded on the field and had great track records of graduation and producing quality people as well. If you had told me to name two schools that would commit the two worst scandals in modern memory, UNC and Penn State wouldn't have been in the first 50 schools I guessed.

It really is sad. And while I may be in the minority in saying this, I think it taints the amazing rivalry we have with them as well. I used to be known around here (thanks to the many UNC alums in my family) for being a bit of a Carolina apologist. I'm not anymore. My feelings toward them have really changed...

...and I mourn for the days when I actually respected them.

-Jason "so sad..." Evans

--note: I'll probably merge this back into the other scandal thread in a bit, but wanted it to stand alone for a little while at least. This is about respect and shock, not the details of what has been revealed or what should be done to them as punishment--

[TruBlu]

...and I mourn for the days when I actually respected them.

That is a noble sentiment on your part, and I respect you for it.

For me, I feel like I need a good kick in the rear for ever respecting them. Won't happen again, unless they self-impose some very harsh punishments and then have a very open and public oversight of their athletic department. Think there's any chance of that happening?

[hurleyfor3]

Bottom line though --did any of you suspect that it was as bad as this?

Yes, via the cockroach principle. There's never just one cockroach; it's always worse than the evidence you have.

What did surprise me was how deep the evidence was that made its way to light.

There's no way the fraud was limited to a couple administrators in the AFAM department. Just none. I will believe Lee Harvey Oswald acted alone before believing Debbie Crowder did.

...and I mourn for the days when I actually respected them.

We can safely say the Carolina Way has gone out the window, especially if the defense is that everyone does it.

I'm disturbed more unc alumni aren't angry about how this reflects on unc as a putative university. If it were Duke I'd be furious.

--note: I'll probably merge this back into the other scandal thread in a bit, but wanted it to stand alone for a little while at least. This is about respect and shock, not the details of what has been revealed or what should be done to them as punishment--

It think it's fine as a separate thread, as this one seems to relate more to our emotions rather than the facts of the case.

[MarkD83]

Jason. I agree with you. I did not think it was this bad and now think there is more fraud to be discovered. The report was restricted to Afam. I am almost wondering if schools need to take a stand by not playing unc but this hurts the school taking a stand rather than unc

[lotusland]

My son was implanted with bilateral cochlear implants by the fine folks at UNC hospital so I definitely separate my feelings for the men's bball program and the university. With that said I view this scandal as an athletics problem and therefore I don't mourn one iota for them.

[brevity]

There's a definite change, and you are right to acknowledge it. The bottom line is this: Duke can still take pride in beating Carolina, but it can no longer take pride in playing them.

--note: I'll probably merge this back into the other scandal thread in a bit, but wanted it to stand alone for a little while at least. This is about respect and shock, not the details of what has been revealed or what should be done to them as punishment--

It think it's fine as a separate thread, as this one seems to relate more to our emotions rather than the facts of the case.

Disagree. Not a moderator, but it should be merged into the Duke vs. Carolina: Scandal's Effect thread. That thread came first and serves the exact same purpose.

[Duvall]

Disagree. Not a moderator, but it should be merged into the Duke vs. Carolina: Scandal's Effect thread. That thread came first and serves the exact same purpose.

Compromise: Keep this thread separate, but merge all discussion of thread merging into a Thread Merging Omnibus Thread. Or at least a 2014-2015 Thread Merging Thread.

[AIRFORCEDUKIE]

I felt this way too as evidence by a similar thread that I started about how it may change the Rivalry. At first I felt bad about it but after reading further and then venturing to IC message board which I shall never do again I changed my mind. I have no respect for them and they are getting what they deserve. How could they defend this at all, at IC they think its over and time to move on. No more sanctions no penalties nothing to see here. Also anyone who says that they should be penalized for it gets destroyed over there. Its crazy how the light blue tainted sunglasses can change the perspective. I sit and wonder if the same happened at Duke would we be sitting here making excuses, defending, saying that nothing solid was proven, and laying blame on a few rogue employees. Or would we man up and blame the coaches and administrators who let this go on for so long? I am a die hard fan who didn't go to Duke. I have no connection to the school other than being a huge fan, and going to games whenever Ive been able to. However I respect and take pride in the fact that the academics side of Duke cannot be argued. As of now we know that our athletes take legit classes and go to those classes. If that was not the case even never having attended the University I would not be able to take the same amount of enjoyment from the teams.

[PSurprise]

I don't think I would say I would mourn for UNC, as much I would say I mourn for the rivalry. The (perceived) strong academics of each school was another singificant (at least in my mind) part of the rivalry that there is very few comparisons in colleges (sorry for the grammar there). Of course there are thousands of faculty, staff and others at UNC and its affiliations that seek to do the right thing 99.99% of the time. However, I still can't get over the fact that UNC did this to themselves. They broke the rules, they deserve whatever punishment, if any. So, not to start going into who should we (they) blame, but really the people I really "mourn" for are those that have upheld the principles of the university and the future students who may share in some of the punishment handed out by the NCAA, SACS, whoever.

[Duvall]

Spending two decades dealing with UNC fans on the Internet led me to expect the worst from anyone associated with UNC athletics, so they weren't really capable of disappointment. The university is another matter, but this still looks like a case of athletics corrupting an academic department, regardless of what UNC's PR people would have you believe.

[budwom]

These guys have been the ultimate hypocrites for years. All the self righteous blather about The Carolina Way has been insufferable for decades as we've known about their coddling of athletes (though we never knew
the true extent). Why anyone would feel sorry for them is beyond me.

[roywhite]

The level of stonewalling indicated to me that they were hiding something pretty bad, and there may be more bad stuff to come. I hope it all comes out, I hope they get penalized severely, and I hope some of their fans learn some humility. My biggest question at this point is whether the UNC administration and athletic department will display any true remorse for what they've done.

I do think it diminishes our rivalry. Can we get the Terps back?...just kidding.

As a North Carolina resident, I don't like to see the flagship University fall in national stature, and I think it also reflects poorly on the state of North Carolina...that's not a good thing.

[Duvall]

The level of stonewalling indicated to me that they were hiding something pretty bad, and there may be more bad stuff to come. I hope it all comes out, I hope they get penalized severely, and I hope some of their fans learn some humility.

I think we've seen enough to know that it's much more likely that their fans would just turn angry, paranoid and insane.

[DUKIECB]

I just had this very conversation with my dad over lunch today. I told him I mourn for the people who went to Carolina because the university had the reputation of being a quality school, took the classes, worked their butts off and EARNED their degree. Those folks now have the unfortunate reality of a cheapened degree from the viewpoint of anyone who finds out they graduated from UNC. It's completely unfair to them. They are the real victims here.

[devildeac]

Initial response: boo-freaking-hoo

devil9f.gifx1000 (or more)

I'll give this some additional thought over the next several hours after I get out of the office and compose something more fitting/professional. I'll preface it by saying my wife's from NC (and she is appalled by this) and we have most of our direct family and some in-laws with Duke degrees (check my profile), a couple unc grads in the family and a daughter who is there now in medical school. I'm not sure my conclusion will be much different but at least I'll ponder it for a while.

[ncexnyc]

The level of stonewalling indicated to me that they were hiding something pretty bad, and there may be more bad stuff to come. I hope it all comes out, I hope they get penalized severely, and I hope some of their fans learn some humility. My biggest question at this point is whether the UNC administration and athletic department will display any true remorse for what they've done.

I do think it diminishes our rivalry. Can we get the Terps back?...just kidding.

As a North Carolina resident, I don't like to see the flagship University fall in national stature, and I think it also reflects poorly on the state of North Carolina...that's not a good thing.

Sadly, it's the last line of your post that is most disturbing to me. Considering all that has gone on these past four years since Fat Marvin made his infamous tweet. The attempts to stonewall this whole matter by the administration of UNC, BOT, BOG, and people within our state's judicial system paint a very sad picture of our state indeed.

[Dr. Rosenrosen]

I'm certainly not in mourning. I think it's horribly sad that the sick culture of fear over there has prevented what are likely to be many smart, sensible people from feeling like they can unapologetically protest, take action or otherwise shake some sense into the pathetic leaders of a once-fine institution.

It's truly disgusting that UNC's leaders have no greater sense of right and wrong than my five-year old when he breaks something. You expect a five year old to scream, whine and lie that he didn't do it and then make excuses once he realizes he's caught. To see such behavior from a group of adults as a result of fear of loss of their cherished but ill-gotten spoils is beyond reprehensible.

So, I'll say I mourn for the loss of honor and respect. To teach a student body, alumni and broad reaching fan base that these behaviors are acceptable is a moral outrage.

[MCFinARL]

My son was implanted with bilateral cochlear implants by the fine folks at UNC hospital so I definitely separate my feelings for the men's bball program and the university. With that said I view this scandal as an athletics problem and therefore I don't mourn one iota for them.

Spending two decades dealing with UNC fans on the Internet led me to expect the worst from anyone associated with UNC athletics, so they weren't really capable of disappointment. The university is another matter, but this still looks like a case of athletics corrupting an academic department, regardless of what UNC's PR people would have you believe.

While I agree it seems to be primarily a case of athletics corrupting an academic department, athletics DID corrupt an academic department, and therefore it's more than an athletics problem. And that is what I mourn for--a (once) prestigious flagship state university that allows its degrees to be cheapened by, essentially, giving some of them away and then, when the fraud comes to light, goes out of its way to stonewall instead of immediately rectifying things. The priorities of the administration here are all too clear, and they aren't academics.

Compromise: Keep this thread separate, but merge all discussion of thread merging into a Thread Merging Omnibus Thread. Or at least a 2014-2015 Thread Merging Thread.

Wow, this is awesomely meta.

[Jarhead]

Sadly, it's the last line of your post that is most disturbing to me. Considering all that has gone on these past four years since Fat Marvin made his infamous tweet. The attempts to stonewall this whole matter by the administration of UNC, BOT, BOG, and people within our state's judicial system paint a very sad picture of our state indeed.

No links. Just heard it coming from the TV set in the other room. On the Triangle ABC station they said something about the NCAA waking up and apparently saying something. I have no more information, but I do have a recommendation for them. The NCAA should put the lack of institution controlon the table, and act on it. The only one I'm sure about is SMU, and that was extreme. Now the NCAA has the facts, and they should now act appropriately.

[Tripping William]

No links. Just heard it coming from the TV set in the other room. On the Triangle ABC station they said something about the NCAA waking up and apparently saying something. I have no more information, but I do have a recommendation for them. The NCAA should put the lack of institution controlon the table, and act on it. The only one I'm sure about is SMU, and that was extreme. Now the NCAA has the facts, and they should now act appropriately.

Which I also posted in the main scandal thread. Key phrases: "deeply troubling" and "absolutely disturbing."

http://abcnews.go.com/Sports/wireSto...bling-26491048