Duke vs Carolina: Scandal's Effect

[AIRFORCEDUKIE]

Mods feel free to move this if you think its undeserving of its own thread.

I have been reading Pack Pride and obviously DBR for a few days and everyone agrees that UNC deserves a lot of punishment for this scandal. I agree, however I worry about how it will change the dynamics of the rivalry. I know the more imoprtant thing is that higher education remains higer education and things like this stop happening. But lets face it I am a sports fan and I worry that UNC getting significant sanctions may hurt Duke and the ACC overall. A huge selling point in recruiting is the rivalry and if UNC is reduced to less scholarships and lengthy post season sanctions will that not hurt the Rivalry? Which in turn hurts recruiting, and the confrences heavy hitting power. I guess with Syracuse and Loiusville in the conference the damage may be lessened a bit. But long term I fear it may reduce the enjoyment of the ACC and Duke basketball. I know we say we want them to be awful every year and to beat them every year, but is that really true. Would that be any fun if UNC is a doormat for the next ten years. Part of the fun of a healthy rivalry is both teams being elite. This scandal may change that. Please refrain from saying academics is what this is about, I know that but I want to talk about the athletic side of things and the rivalry as a whole.

[OldPhiKap]

Mods feel free to move this if you think its undeserving of its own thread.

I have been reading Pack Pride and obviously DBR for a few days and everyone agrees that UNC deserves a lot of punishment for this scandal. I agree, however I worry about how it will change the dynamics of the rivalry. I know the more imoprtant thing is that higher education remains higer education and things like this stop happening. But lets face it I am a sports fan and I worry that UNC getting significant sanctions may hurt Duke and the ACC overall. A huge selling point in recruiting is the rivalry and if UNC is reduced to less scholarships and lengthy post season sanctions will that not hurt the Rivalry? Which in turn hurts recruiting, and the confrences heavy hitting power. I guess with Syracuse and Loiusville in the conference the damage may be lessened a bit. But long term I fear it may reduce the enjoyment of the ACC and Duke basketball. I know we say we want them to be awful every year and to beat them every year, but is that really true. Would that be any fun if UNC is a doormat for the next ten years. Part of the fun of a healthy rivalry is both teams being elite. This scandal may change that. Please refrain from saying academics is what this is about, I know that but I want to talk about the athletic side of things and the rivalry as a whole.

1. Long term going forward, no effect. Carolina will not wither as a program, although there may be a lull.

2. Short term, it depends on who comes and who is their coach. I don't expect Huck to be there much longer, even putting the scandal aside.

3. I am assuming no TV prohibition or death penalty, of course.

4. If UNC vacates a bunch of Duke-UNC games in which UNC won, it changes the rivalry head-to-head numbers.

5. We'll always have 82-50.

[Tom B.]

4. If UNC vacates a bunch of Duke-UNC games in which UNC won, it changes the rivalry head-to-head numbers.

I hadn't thought about this, but if the scam ran from 1993 to 2009, that potentially brings 19 UNC wins over Duke into play (UNC had another win over Duke in 2011, which would bring the total to 20 -- but IIRC, the basketball players were out of the bogus AfAm classes by then). I think it's unlikely that they'd all be vacated, but I guess it's possible that some could be. Right now, UNC leads the rivalry series 133-105.

The other number that the scandal could affect is the all-time wins total. Right now, UNC stands in third place at 2,114 wins, behind Kentucky (2,140) and Kansas (2,126). Duke is fourth, with 2,027. Is it possible that enough UNC wins could be vacated to allow Duke to jump over Carolina on the all-time wins list? At least 88 wins would need to be vacated -- that's probably about three to four seasons' worth of wins. That might not be out of the realm of possibility.

Is there any way we could get the NCAA to vacate their Helms, ahem...."championship"?

[Dr. Rosenrosen]

Somewhere, John Calipari is laughing his arse off.

[Dr. Rosenrosen]

Also, how long has it been since they earned a recruiting commitment? And how much longer might it now be? Have to believe this is going to have a lasting effect.

[Duvall]

Also, how long has it been since they earned a recruiting commitment? And how much longer might it now be? Have to believe this is going to have a lasting effect.

Up until now, I think UNC's commitment drought was overblown - they locked up a top 2014 class early, and 2015 recruiting is still getting underway. That said, the prospect - even a slight one - of a postseason ban may tip some top recruits away from UNC until the NCAA weighs in.

[cspan37421]

Please refrain from saying academics is what this is about, I know that but I want to talk about the athletic side of things and the rivalry as a whole.

I would suggest that your style of rooting interest is more suited to professional sports.

For me, a key component of a collegiate rivalry is that the two schools have some significant characteristics in common, such as size, regional location, academic selectivity, long history of competition that is not one-sided, etc. So with Ohio State and Michigan you have two large neighboring state schools with a long history of competitiveness. UM is generally considered more academically rigorous, but there are enough qualities in common that the rivalry works well.

Duke and Carolina are obviously geographically close, with a long history of competitive play. They differ in size a fair bit, with UNC more than 2x Duke's size. And unless there's something nefarious going on we don't know about, we have now learned that the two schools have apparently not been comparable in terms of academic standards for athletes. That is an uneven playing field, so to me, as I've said before, as to rivalry, they're dead to me.

I find tragic and wrong-headed the notion that we should go light on UNC because Duke depends on the UNC rivalry for its basketball prestige and appeal. Duke need not depend on it. We are a national program and while the "rivalry" had a lot of great moments, there can be other rivals and there can be other great moments. No, none of them will be 10 miles away (or 9, 8, 7 ... it seems to get closer every year if you listen to broadcasters) ... but so what.

I'm not saying it's all about academics. But to be a good rivalry with an even playing field, they ought to at least be in the same galaxy on that count.

[Faustus]

I, for one, am not worried about UNC having to perform on the same level playing field as everyone else for once in a few generations. Nor do I really believe the NCAA will bury them with penalties in the short-term future, deeply as they are clearly deserved. But if UNC is not allowed to perform on TV for a few years, I think I'm quite ok with that as well, even missing some Duke games with them. I'm rather expecting to enjoy the final scores of those games, though...

[weezie]

Would that be any fun if UNC is a doormat for the next ten years.

Yes it would be fun: great, whooping, yodeling rear end kicking fun. Just like they enjoyed our years in the desert. Consider that their fan website "ic" whines, "What if this happened at Duke?" Consider that the basketball team managers of both schools ended up rumbling with each other in their annual game after a dirty foul by a hole and consider, too, that last season, K was accused of chicanery when the game in the deandump was postponed due to an ice storm. They simply stink over there and now everybody knows it as fact.

I won't worry about them or the rivalry. They'll still hate us, rest assured.

[devildeac]

1. Long term going forward, no effect. Carolina will not wither as a program, although there may be a lull.

2. Short term, it depends on who comes and who is their coach. I don't expect Huck to be there much longer, even putting the scandal aside.

3. I am assuming no TV prohibition or death penalty, of course.

4. If UNC vacates a bunch of Duke-UNC games in which UNC won, it changes the rivalry head-to-head numbers.

5. We'll always have 82-50.

I especially like #4.

devil9f.gif

[elvis14]

Would that be any fun if UNC is a doormat for the next ten years.

Oh my would it be fun. It would be OK with me if UNC-CHeaters didn't win a single game for the next 10 years.