What should UNC's punishment be?

[cspan37421]

Although I voted for "some combination", perhaps the best thing is what is happening to them now ... an inexorable death-dance that is slowly but surely destroying their credibility both as an academic institution and as a place where any top athlete would want to play collegiately. Think about it - which is more desirable from a Duke fan perspective - that they force a few more coaches and admins to fall on their swords and clean house, and immediately start righting their ship, or for their ethical necrosis to fester and continue to destroy them in the drip, drip of information that is finally wrested from their secret vaults by Pack Pride, investigators, and insiders who have turned?

IMO a case can be made that the most devastating punishment for them is to cement their reputations as world-class hypocrites who would deny what is already found and admitted if that meant keeping now-meaningless banners up. For them to become a laughingstock.

Right now they seem to be digging their own grave, and they don't even know it.

[UrinalCake]

^ I agree cspan, which is why even though everyone is calling for Roy's head, I actually don't want him to be fired. Let him keep his job and have to answer questions about the scandal at every press conference and after every game. Better yet, let him walk into the home of a prized recruit and have to answer questions from the kid's parents. You don't want to talk about that crap in the past? Okay fine, you can show yourself to the door.

I want Roy to have to deal with reduced scholarships and postseason bans. Let him play with a roster of three-star players who actually have to go to class, and expose his lack of coaching ability. It won't take long before he quits on his own.

Conversely, firing him would be a better fate than he deserves. He would get a big buyout package and could continue to claim he never did anything wrong, allowing him to land a job in broadcasting or maybe even coaching somewhere else. The university would be able to sever all ties to the scandal, bring in someone with some dignity, and get back on track the way UCONN did. So yeah, I say keep Roy and let us enjoy the bloodletting.

[hurleyfor3]

Conversely, firing him would be a better fate than he deserves. He would get a big buyout package and could continue to claim he never did anything wrong, allowing him to land a job in broadcasting or maybe even coaching somewhere else. The university would be able to sever all ties to the scandal, bring in someone with some dignity, and get back on track the way UCONN did. So yeah, I say keep Roy and let us enjoy the bloodletting.

I've said this before, but Roy has never won a national championship with legitimate student-athletes. And now the controls at unc will be tighter than ever. Well, we hope they will be. So keep Roy around.

[Neals384]

Imagine an athlete who has no issues with their grades, if they are taking 5 classes a semester, that is probably a 40-60 hour work load and is going to eat into practice time, time in the gym, time in the film room. Take 10-15 hours off their workload and how much of that time gets spent in the gym, the weight room, or the film room to give those athletes a competitive advantage?

No, no, no. That's 10-15 more hours per week to drive their rental cars and hang with shady characters.

[Neals384]

This is one of my larger questions...what happens to the sham degrees that were awarded?

What degrees? Did any of them actually graduate?

[cspan37421]

Better yet, let him walk into the home of a prized recruit and have to answer questions from the kid's parents. You don't want to talk about that crap in the past? Okay fine, you can show yourself to the door.

I say keep Roy and let us enjoy the bloodletting.

Excellent points. Who wouldn't want to be recruiting against Roy Williams and UNC right now? With all that is hanging over the program?

[cspan37421]

I've said this before, but Roy has never won a national championship with legitimate student-athletes. And now the controls at unc will be tighter than ever. Well, we hope they will be. So keep Roy around.

Love your sig picture of the crossed-out UNC banners. Reminds me of Family Feud!

[Rickshaw]

I know things don't work this way, but I think the NCAA should take the 2005 NC banner just to get uncs attention.
Maybe that would bring them a little closer to reality.

[BD80]

I know things don't work this way, but I think the NCAA should take the 2005 NC banner just to get uncs attention.
Maybe that would bring them a little closer to reality.

But Helms could bake up a nonce in a trice to replace it

[DukieInKansas]

Everytime I read the title of this thread, a little voice in my head, in British accent, says "Off with their heads!" and makes me chuckle.

[OldPhiKap]

Everytime I read the title of this thread, a little voice in my head, in British accent, says "Off with their heads!" and makes me chuckle.

I picture the end of Dr. Strangelove. (Including Roy, Bubba, and Carol in the bunker as the big ones drop)

[DukieInBrasil]

I've said this before, but Roy has never won a national championship with legitimate student-athletes. And now the controls at unc will be tighter than ever. Well, we hope they will be. So keep Roy around.

i love the idea of forcing UNC to keep the banners up and writing in BIG red letters the word "VACATED" on their most recent championships. However, per your image, why would the 1924 banner get X'd out?

[OldPhiKap]

i love the idea of forcing UNC to keep the banners up and writing in BIG red letters the word "VACATED" on their most recent championships. However, per your image, why would the 1924 banner get X'd out?

The 1924 Helms Trophy was not given as the result of a play-off; it was given several years later when the Helms Baking Company decided to name who it thought the champions were in several past years.

(I think that's right)

[oldnavy]

Where's that "I'm Happy" video with all the coaches dancing around...

I really want to see that again...

[Saratoga2]

Schools with high academic standards must choose recruits from the smaller pool of young folks capable of completing the course requirements. I can see that these athletes, once enrolled, should get special help and tutoring. They face a much tougher schedule than the typical student, what with the practice and travel. It is easy to name several ACC schools who definitely have higher standards. I would think Duke ranks right up there as does Notre Dame, UVA, Wake and others.

Schools like UNC however, knowingly brought athletes in who were questionable students and then set up phony classes with the specific goal of winning more games and championships. That tended to penalize the schools who played by the rules. It is only fair to make the penalty fit the crime and strip the institution of wins and championships. I would also think a reduction in the number of scholarships over a 5 year period would be appropriate. The leaders at UNC should feel shame for such an egregius breach of the code of conduct.

[BigWayne]

This was posted in another thread but it really belongs in this one. Basically it is analysis of the Macalester president's call for revocation of accreditation. I don't think this is warranted, but the real threat of it needs to be put in the face of UNC graduates and students. There needs to be pressure brought by the students that want to graduate on time that UNC needs to fess up and clean house. As the student forum yesterday exposed, there are other departments besides AFAM involved and they are so far not getting punished or cleaned up.

[sagegrouse]

The 1924 Helms Trophy was not given as the result of a play-off; it was given several years later when the Helms Baking Company decided to name who it thought the champions were in several past years.

(I think that's right)

Oh, it's totally bogus as a national championship. The 1924 White Phantoms (a name shamefully harkening to the KKK) were undefeated. But Southern basketball was far less developed than hoops in other parts of the country. The Phantoms did not play anyone from north of the Mason-Dixon line or from the Midwest. But, of course, they did beat Mercer!

[BD80]

Oh, it's totally bogus as a national championship. The 1924 White Phantoms (a name shamefully harkening to the KKK) were undefeated. But Southern basketball was far less developed than hoops in other parts of the country. The Phantoms did not play anyone from north of the Mason-Dixon line or from the Midwest. But, of course, they did beat Mercer!

OMG. I thought you were kidding around.

unc's basketball team was actually called The White Phantoms until 1950!!!!!

The '24 team was led by Monk McDonald, a poor man's Dick Groat (played QB, PG and SS)

[Newton_14]

OMG. I thought you were kidding around.

unc's basketball team was actually called The White Phantoms until 1950!!!!!

The '24 team was led by Monk McDonald, a poor man's Dick Groat (played QB, PG and SS)

No kidding was the Sage one doing. Nor OPK. The White Phantoms of 24' won all of their I believe 8 Regular Season games, but since they did not play anybody, they were not invited to the National Tournament which actually was played on the court and won by Butler. In I believe 1940, the Helms Bakery decided to create a new championship which would be named by them each season. They went back in time however, and awarded their "Championship" to teams in the past. They awarded the White Phantoms their 1924 loaf.

Strangely unc did not recognize this or promote it until the year 2001, shortly after Duke won National Title number 3, tying unc. (Though in fairness, we did not know at the time that the one in 93 should not have counted either so Duke was actually up 3-2 at that point)

[cspan37421]

No kidding was the Sage one doing. Nor OPK. The White Phantoms of 24' won all of their I believe 8 Regular Season games, but since they did not play anybody, they were not invited to the National Tournament which actually was played on the court and won by Butler.

8 regular season games? I counted 22, ans as far as not playing anyone, they defeated Duke twice, Maryland, Virginia, Wake Forest twice, NC State twice, ... and some team called Mercer. Later in the SoCon tourney Kentucky, Vandy, Bama, and MS State.

I'd like to dance on their grave as much as anyone. But by the looks of it they certainly took care of who they could play (in their region - not sure about how much cross-country play was back then, esp. for post-season). And a lot more than 8 games. I don't mind that they claim such a title ... but they should definitely identify it for what it is - not an NCAA title ... but you wouldn't know that from the banner.