Atlanta Hawks Majority Owner to Sell Team Due to racist email

[Duvall]

Now this thread feels to me as though it's exhausted itself from a basketball perspective.

That would be a bizarre approach to a story that seems to be moving quickly.

[subzero02]

I believe the only reason Ferry retained his job is because he was not the original author of the scouting report. At the very least, he showed a major lapse in judgement and he could still be fired. I'd like to know who the original author was, I'm sure that will come out soon. It'll be interesting to see what else emerges once that individual is identified. I'd also like to know the severity of Ferry's punishment.

[77devil]

So, yeah, we now have heard third hand, via multiple parties with obvious agendas, that Danny Ferry evidently repeated something that was culturally offensive on a conference call. It will be very interesting to see what happens next.

Well it's first hand now that Ferry has issued a public statement. Nevertheless, a GM should be smarter, or at least know better, than to read such comments verbatim in a conference call even if they were written by others.

[Des Esseintes]

My very favorite songwriter is Patty Griffin who is of Irish Catholic descent:

"I was drinkin' like the Irish, but I was drinkin Scotch..."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lyySkPqJy9I

According to your logic, Patty Griffin is a racist. Got it.

No, that's not at all what it is like. It's like if Luol Deng was Irish, and Danny Ferry said, "On the negative side, he's Irish. The Irish, owing to their lamentable idol-worshipping Catholicism and general dimwittedness, are problem drinkers, so we should be wary of hiring him because he may be a an incompetent alcoholic." That's what it would be like, if you were also operating under the assumption that America's despicable history when it comes to views of people from Africa was even in the same zip code as past prejudice against people of Irish descent.

[johnb]

No, that's not at all what it is like. It's like if Luol Deng was Irish, and Danny Ferry said, "On the negative side, he's Irish. The Irish, owing to their lamentable idol-worshipping Catholicism and general dimwittedness, are problem drinkers, so we should be wary of hiring him because he may be a an incompetent alcoholic." That's what it would be like, if you were also operating under the assumption that America's despicable history when it comes to views of people from Africa was even in the same zip code as past prejudice against people of Irish descent.

My post, above, may have been off base and/or too long.

To abbreviate:
We don't know what "too African" means. Luol Deng is one of the most respected players in the league. It'd be weird to call him a cheater. In the context of FA negotiations, I could much more easily imagine it means "he says yes when he means no."

Alternatively, Ferry was simply repeating everything that was being said by insiders in written reports.

He's going to apologize--that is the modern thing to do--but I still can't figure out his original intent (i.e., what is he apologizing for, exactly?).

[Des Esseintes]

My post, above, may have been off base and/or too long.

To abbreviate:
We don't know what "too African" means. Luol Deng is one of the most respected players in the league. It'd be weird to call him a cheater. In the context of FA negotiations, I could much more easily imagine it means "he says yes when he means no."

Alternatively, Ferry was simply repeating everything that was being said by insiders in written reports.

He's going to apologize--that is the modern thing to do--but I still can't figure out his original intent (i.e., what is he apologizing for, exactly?).

I agree that his intent is obscure. But he said that he meant African in the sense of a guy operating a nice storefront while selling counterfeit goods in back. Whether he meant that as a positive thing about Deng, I have no idea. I mean, maybe, but man it's weird. I think we can all safely assume, however, it's not a great thing to say about everyone from the continent of Africa.

[AtlDuke72]

"besmirched the brand with his followups about black income levels"

Really ? Should a businessman selling a very expensive product ignore the income level of the majority of its customers? I'll bet that would be a novel approach in business school..

[lotusland]

My very favorite songwriter is Patty Griffin who is of Irish Catholic descent:

"I was drinkin' like the Irish, but I was drinkin Scotch..."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lyySkPqJy9I

According to your logic, Patty Griffin is a racist. Got it.

No, that's not at all what it is like. It's like if Luol Deng was Irish, and Danny Ferry said, "On the negative side, he's Irish. The Irish, owing to their lamentable idol-worshipping Catholicism and general dimwittedness, are problem drinkers, so we should be wary of hiring him because he may be a an incompetent alcoholic." That's what it would be like, if you were also operating under the assumption that America's despicable history when it comes to views of people from Africa was even in the same zip code as past prejudice against people of Irish descent.

My post above regarding Patty Griffin was specifically in response to the below post. My point was that speaking in generalizations is something that EVERYONE does and it does not make you a racist. I would be very surprised if Luol has never linked a person's personal trait (or his perception of it) with his/her nationality, ethnicity, race, religion, profession, sexual preference, etc. . Anthropologist study such culture characteristics do they not?

Quote Originally Posted by subzero02 View Post 

So,if you're corrupt you have the attributes of an African, if you're a drinker you have an attribute of the Irish and [I][/I][B]if you place a negative stereotype on an entire 
ethnic group you're not making a racist comment. Got it[/B].

[OldSchool]

Obviously, the comment that Danny read on the conference call was pretty insulting to Lu and of course offensive to boot.

Just guessing, but I'm wondering if that scouting comment didn't originate in the Cleveland organization. Recall that during his short stint there Lu said some rather negative things about the way Cleveland runs things (which compared poorly with the Bulls) which comments found their way into the media and then Lu spurned them when it came time to deciding whether to stay with Cleveland. There may have been some pretty hard feelings in Cleveland about Lu, perhaps someone there felt he had misled them, and perhaps this was that someone's way of trying to get back at him. I would imagine Danny is still pretty close to the Cleveland organization.

Just a guess.

[subzero02]

It probably came from one of Ferry's San Antonio connections... That franchise has spurned foreign talent for years.

[Duvall]

Obviously, the comment that Danny read on the conference call was pretty insulting to Lu and of course offensive to boot.

Just guessing, but I'm wondering if that scouting comment didn't originate in the Cleveland organization. Recall that during his short stint there Lu said some rather negative things about the way Cleveland runs things (which compared poorly with the Bulls) which comments found their way into the media and then Lu spurned them when it came time to deciding whether to stay with Cleveland. There may have been some pretty hard feelings in Cleveland about Lu, perhaps someone there felt he had misled them, and perhaps this was that someone's way of trying to get back at him. I would imagine Danny is still pretty close to the Cleveland organization.

Just a guess.

Deng has only played for and negotiated with two franchises before this summer, yes? And *of course* one of them would be Cleveland.

[Tom B.]

Jason Whitlock weighs in with an interesting perspective.

[lotusland]

Jason Whitlock weighs in with an interesting perspective.

Interesting that his take was that the Ferry's Scouting report comment was directed at black people in general rather than African immigrants. I really think the comment, regardless of where it originated, probably referred to specifically Deng's African heritage not his race but I can't be certain.

[Des Esseintes]

My post above regarding Patty Griffin was specifically in response to the below post. My point was that speaking in generalizations is something that EVERYONE does and it does not make you a racist. I would be very surprised if Luol has never linked a person's personal trait (or his perception of it) with his/her nationality, ethnicity, race, religion, profession, sexual preference, etc. . Anthropologist study such culture characteristics do they not?

Quote Originally Posted by subzero02 View Post 

So,if you're corrupt you have the attributes of an African, if you're a drinker you have an attribute of the Irish and [I][/I][B]if you place a negative stereotype on an entire 
ethnic group you're not making a racist comment. Got it[/B].

Look, Patty Griffin is Irish. She can say stuff about the Irish. But if Patty Griffin was *not* Irish, and she was the GM of an NBA team, and she was using someone's Irish descent to determine whether they should be hired--well, Patty Griffin would then be a racist. That's, like, the definition of racism.

In any case, I'd be excited to see this fascinating cultural anthropology monograph on how Africans run nice storefronts and then turn around and sell hot merchandise out of the back. I bet that's a super-well-researched and rigorous monograph.

Can I also add that Danny Ferry shouldn't get much of a pass for reading someone else's words, if in fact they were not his own. Because it would pretty straightforward for him to read aloud that quote and then immediately follow it with: "Whoa, guys, that's--that's pretty out there, that scouting report. Just so we're clear, I do not think Luol Deng should be compared to a corrupt small business owner just because he is from the Sudan. That would be preposterously, almost comically racist, and I definitely do not think that." Yet he apparently did no such thing. Perhaps he thought he would look incompetent for not having read the scouting reports ahead of time? Incompetence isn't much of a defense.

[Duvall]

Look, Patty Griffin is Irish. She can say stuff about the Irish. But if Patty Griffin was *not* Irish, and she was the GM of an NBA team, and she was using someone's Irish descent to determine whether they should be hired--well, Patty Griffin would then be a racist. That's, like, the definition of racism.

Yeah, it's hard to believe that we are debating whether a claim that is essentially that "Africans are bad people that we should not employ" is bigotry or cultural analysis, but here we are.

[Des Esseintes]

Luol Deng, talking about Africans.

“HE HAS A LITTLE AFRICAN IN HIM”

These words were recently used to describe me. It would ordinarily make any African parent proud to hear their child recognized for their heritage.

I’m proud to say I actually have a lot of African in me, not just “a little”. For my entire life, my identity has been a source of pride and strength. Among my family and friends, in my country of South Sudan and across the broader continent of Africa, I can think of no greater privilege than to do what I love for a living while also representing my heritage on the highest stage. Unfortunately, the comment about my heritage was not made with the same respect and appreciation.

Concerning my free agency, the focus should purely have been on my professionalism and my ability as an athlete. Every person should have the right to be treated with respect and evaluated as an individual, rather than be reduced to a stereotype. I am saddened and disappointed that this way of thinking still exists today. I am even more disturbed that it was shared so freely in a business setting.

However, there is comfort in knowing that there are people who aren’t comfortable with it and have the courage to speak up. In the same way a generalization should not define a group of people, the attitude of a few should not define a whole organization or league.

Ultimately, I’m thankful to be with an organization that appreciates me for who I am and has gone out of its way to make me feel welcome.

[OldSchool]

Luol:

Ultimately, I’m thankful to be with an organization that appreciates me for who I am and has gone out of its way to make me feel welcome.

I'm reading this as a veiled shot at Cleveland, since he was never at Atlanta to feel welcomed or not, and pointing to Cleveland as the source of the insulting scouting remark. (which does not let Ferry off the hook for repeating it)

But can anyone really imagine people at Cleveland getting all hothead and lobbing nasty insults at a player who decided to leave them to go elsewhere? Must be some other explanation.

[lotusland]

Look, Patty Griffin is Irish. She can say stuff about the Irish. But if Patty Griffin was *not* Irish, and she was the GM of an NBA team, and she was using someone's Irish descent to determine whether they should be hired--well, Patty Griffin would then be a racist. That's, like, the definition of racism.

In any case, I'd be excited to see this fascinating cultural anthropology monograph on how Africans run nice storefronts and then turn around and sell hot merchandise out of the back. I bet that's a super-well-researched and rigorous monograph.

Can I also add that Danny Ferry shouldn't get much of a pass for reading someone else's words, if in fact they were not his own. Because it would pretty straightforward for him to read aloud that quote and then immediately follow it with: "Whoa, guys, that's--that's pretty out there, that scouting report. Just so we're clear, I do not think Luol Deng should be compared to a corrupt small business owner just because he is from the Sudan. That would be preposterously, almost comically racist, and I definitely do not think that." Yet he apparently did no such thing. Perhaps he thought he would look incompetent for not having read the scouting reports ahead of time? Incompetence isn't much of a defense.

Well in this case, the comment was about a perceived personality trait or behavior that was attributed to his African heritage. In other words they don't care a lick that Deng is African apart his perceived behavior.

If an Irish player was thought to drink a lot wouldn't that be appropriate to discuss? If someone else on the call commented that he was Irish in response would that make it worse for the player?

[lotusland]

Yeah, it's hard to believe that we are debating whether a claim that is essentially that "Africans are bad people that we should not employ" is bigotry or cultural analysis, but here we are.

I don't doubt that is what you and your straw men are debating but not me.

[throatybeard]

If I'm moving into PPB territory, forgive me. I will try to put this as neutrally as possible. However, the response to Levenson's email seems utterly absurd considering that only a short while ago my beloved Atlanta Braves announced that they were moving the team to Cobb County to be closer to their "core" fan base. It is simply impossible NOT to conclude that serious demographic research (which must include race, as well as class and geography) went into that decision. The language of the organization's justification for the move always troubled me, as the Braves seemed to be blatantly giving up any attempt to appeal to Atlanta as a whole and instead decided to focus on a smaller demographic. Call me crazy, but I'm far, far, far more comfortable with Levenson and other ownership groups having conversations about how to diversify the fan base, even if those conversations are crude and based on stereotypes. I certainly hope that society can rise above simple stereotypes, but it is also important that we confront our biases and figure out ways to overcome them. To me, the Braves' move to Cobb County warrants far more scrutiny than Levenson's email.

To bring this back out of PPB territory, I agree with others who think that there is a good chance that rival owners had no problem giving Levenson a reason to cash out. The whole thing is really strange and, ultimately, no one is really harmed. My hope is that the situation forces the Atlanta area into some serious soul-searching about the social dynamics that still obviously play a large role in the workings of the city.

Aaaand that's why I'm done with the Braves. Despite driving 2300 miles to see the HOF inductions this year.