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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dev11 View Post
    I don't think what happened at UNC could happen at Duke.
    It did happen at Duke -- about 40 years ago. I won't use player names. But at least two coeds tutoring football players got fed up with doing all the athletes' work and turned themselves in. "Really," said one, "he was dumb as a post."
    Sage Grouse

    ---------------------------------------
    'When I got on the bus for my first road game at Duke, I saw that every player was carrying textbooks or laptops. I coached in the SEC for 25 years, and I had never seen that before, not even once.' - David Cutcliffe to Duke alumni in Washington, DC, June 2013

  2. #22
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    Feb 2007
    Quote Originally Posted by sagegrouse View Post
    It did happen at Duke -- about 40 years ago. I won't use player names. But at least two coeds tutoring football players got fed up with doing all the athletes' work and turned themselves in. "Really," said one, "he was dumb as a post."
    Unless there's a lot more to that story, that is not what happened at UNC. Is there?

  3. #23
    I have to say that it does bother me that people can compare this to UNC and then act like that means nothing. I also believe ND will get to the bottom o fit and apply appropriate punishment. Heck the Harvard cheating scandal shows that students can cheat anywhere. I just wish more questions were asked about the UNC scandal by the national media. I am sure they won't let this ND scandal go until they receive full discovery.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duvall View Post
    Unless there's a lot more to that story, that is not what happened at UNC. Is there?
    Despite the clear quote, for some reason I was thinking of a comparison to ND,
    Sage Grouse

    ---------------------------------------
    'When I got on the bus for my first road game at Duke, I saw that every player was carrying textbooks or laptops. I coached in the SEC for 25 years, and I had never seen that before, not even once.' - David Cutcliffe to Duke alumni in Washington, DC, June 2013

  5. #25
    Unless it was academic tutors doing the school work or if the coaches knew about it, I really don't see what the big deal is. The story is basically: college students suspected of cheating. It happens everywhere. The fact that they are football players is irrelevant. ND (like Duke) has a history of investigating and doling out the appropriate punishment in line with their honor code. Most recently ND's star quarterback was suspended from school for a year because of cheating.

  6. #26
    alteran is offline All-American, Honorable Mention
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    Quote Originally Posted by CameronBlue View Post
    Course, UNC prides itself on establishing standards of performance no other school can achieve.
    Turns out they were right, just not in the way they thought they were.

    Of course, now UNC has provided a roadmap for cheating like mad and avoiding massive NCAA sanctions on a technicality-- just make sure that you have a few more non-athletes in the cheating program, and the NCAA flags it all as "academic, not athletic." All you have to do is not care about your reputation.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duvall View Post
    Which turn of events? Anyway, Notre Dame doesn't need to join the ACC in football.
    we could be in ND's shoes any year. I'd like to think we wouldn't be in Carolina's shoes in regards to institutional acceptance of cheating.

    this may not be the right thread, but, if there's a big 5 for football, why doesn't ND have to join up?

  8. #28
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    Feb 2007
    Quote Originally Posted by johnb View Post
    we could be in ND's shoes any year. I'd like to think we wouldn't be in Carolina's shoes in regards to institutional acceptance of cheating.

    this may not be the right thread, but, if there's a big 5 for football, why doesn't ND have to join up?
    Because Notre Dame is popular enough to have its own television contract, and popular enough with ESPN to get guaranteed access to the network's fake made-for-TV tournament. That won't change any time in the next ten years, and probably longer.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Duvall View Post
    Because Notre Dame is popular enough to have its own television contract, and popular enough with ESPN to get guaranteed access to the network's fake made-for-TV tournament. That won't change any time in the next ten years, and probably longer.
    so instead of the BCS, ESPN chooses the playoff teams now? So what was the point of all the conference realignment?

  10. #30
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    Feb 2007
    Quote Originally Posted by lotusland View Post
    so instead of the BCS, ESPN chooses the playoff teams now?
    No, ESPN set up the system under which the playoff teams are chosen, a system in which Notre Dame has an explicitly protected role.

    So what was the point of all the conference realignment?
    To improve the product that ESPN packages around its commercials.

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dev11 View Post
    That isn't true. I tend to believe it, but I've met a number of people who have stated that they don't think that the guys in the revenue sports have the same academic burden as everybody else. Sure, they go to class, but that doesn't mean they do all the same work in the same classes. It's not UNC-level cheating, but it could be lax enforcement of the academic standard.

    If it can happen at Notre Dame, it can happen at Duke. I hope all the staff and students don't let that be the case.
    I have always believed that Duke Football and Basketball players go to real classes filled with non-athlete students, taking the same curriculum as the non-athlete's, same coursework, same tests, etc. I will continue to believe that until shown otherwise. Now, like any other "group" of people, not all of them take the same majors, and some majors are more difficult than others. Miles Plumlee for example started out in an extremely difficult major his freshman year, then changed majors as a Sophomore, but even there, did not drop down to basket weaving. It was still a solid major, just less difficult than the original.

    So I would assume some take extremely difficult majors, others moderately difficult majors, and some take the easiest majors possible, but the point is, they all go to regular classes. With their travelling, they obviously have to miss class time and make that work up, but I believe the young man responsible for the basketball team's academics (name escapes me) is 100% on top of that at all times, making sure the guys know their requirements, and making sure the guys perform that work adequately, and finish their assignments on time.

    Unless proven otherwise, I fully believe all of the above. If that makes me a naïve sucker then so be it.

  12. #32
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    Las Vegas, Nevada
    There's a sharp distinction to be drawn between academic fraud committed by student-athletes and academic fraud committed by a university. The former can happen at any university, and it undoubtedly does. But the latter goes to the heart of a university's very commitment to academics, and I'm sure it's less common. People who see the two as somehow equivalent ("See, even ND does it, so cut UNC a break") have very poor discernment skills. Other posters have made approximately the same point above.

    The two types of fraud are, however, related in this way: How a university responds to academic fraud by students says a lot about that core commitment to academics. ND is under a microscope on this one and really does have an institutional commitment to academics. So I'm pretty sure they'll handle it well, and UNC-CH will continue uncomfortably to sit at the far end of the "commitment to academics" spectrum. They need the Wainstein report and aggressive action by the UNC BoG to help bring them away from that end of the spectrum.

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Henderson View Post
    There's a sharp distinction to be drawn between academic fraud committed by student-athletes and academic fraud committed by a university. The former can happen at any university, and it undoubtedly does. But the latter goes to the heart of a university's very commitment to academics, and I'm sure it's less common. People who see the two as somehow equivalent ("See, even ND does it, so cut UNC a break") have very poor discernment skills. Other posters have made approximately the same point above.

    The two types of fraud are, however, related in this way: How a university responds to academic fraud by students says a lot about that core commitment to academics. ND is under a microscope on this one and really does have an institutional commitment to academics. So I'm pretty sure they'll handle it well, and UNC-CH will continue uncomfortably to sit at the far end of the "commitment to academics" spectrum. They need the Wainstein report and aggressive action by the UNC BoG to help bring them away from that end of the spectrum.
    Not allowed to spork you - but very well said, sir.

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Henderson View Post
    There's a sharp distinction to be drawn between academic fraud committed by student-athletes and academic fraud committed by a university. The former can happen at any university, and it undoubtedly does. But the latter goes to the heart of a university's very commitment to academics, and I'm sure it's less common. People who see the two as somehow equivalent ("See, even ND does it, so cut UNC a break") have very poor discernment skills. Other posters have made approximately the same point above.

    The two types of fraud are, however, related in this way: How a university responds to academic fraud by students says a lot about that core commitment to academics. ND is under a microscope on this one and really does have an institutional commitment to academics. So I'm pretty sure they'll handle it well, and UNC-CH will continue uncomfortably to sit at the far end of the "commitment to academics" spectrum. They need the Wainstein report and aggressive action by the UNC BoG to help bring them away from that end of the spectrum.
    Very well said. However, to do the right thing UNC does not need any more reports. They have admitted by firing the head of the department that something was wrong. Athletes were taking these classes so they need to just take the agressive action.

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkD83 View Post
    However, to do the right thing UNC does not need any more reports. They have admitted by firing the head of the department that something was wrong. Athletes were taking these classes so they need to just take the agressive action.
    Agreed. UNC-CH has blown through opportunities to get this right. They get another opportunity after the BoG takes action on the Wainstein report.

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Henderson View Post
    Agreed. UNC-CH has blown through opportunities to get this right. They get another opportunity after the BoG takes action on the Wainstein report.
    I would not be surprised if a majority of the Board of Governors come up with something like this:

    1. The actions of the UNC athletic department and certain academic departments are an embarrassment to the university, to its students and alumni, to the Board, and to me personally.
    2. We want our athletic teams to be successful in the conference and on a national basis, but we want the student-athletes who go to UNC to get a good college education. We do not believe the two objectives are incompatible.
    3. We hereby direct the UNC-CH Chancellor to ensure that (a) all student athletes admitted to UNC are capable of doing college-level work; (b) they take courses of instruction that lead toward an undergraduate degree at UNC; (c) all courses offered to athletes and other students meet the proper standards of the University of North Carolina; and (d) that academic counseling for athletes is independent of the athletic department and reports to the appropriate academic official.


    As Henderson and I have both noted, the UNC scandal is not about athletes cheating but about UNC arranging fraudulent, undemanding courses of instruction that cheat both the athletes as students and their legitimate competitors in college sports.
    Sage Grouse

    ---------------------------------------
    'When I got on the bus for my first road game at Duke, I saw that every player was carrying textbooks or laptops. I coached in the SEC for 25 years, and I had never seen that before, not even once.' - David Cutcliffe to Duke alumni in Washington, DC, June 2013

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