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  1. #4421
    Quote Originally Posted by sagegrouse View Post
    Not clear what you mean. Restate?
    Typed too fast, didn't make sense.

    In my original statement, I didn't mean that parents didn't bother me, but rather that behavior as the parent of a high school player is something I don't really worry about anymore.

    In response to your Tank Thornton question... Tank was most assuredly not pleased with the way DT was used and was one of the primary forces in encouraging DT to transfer. However, DT's "uncle" is the one that made it a big public mess via Twitter.
    Whatever the hell "it" is, Jabari found it.

    -Roy "Ole Huck" Williams

  2. #4422
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Raleigh, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by lotusland View Post
    He doesn't want to share minutes and shots with Carter and Bolden. I wish him much success at Kansas or wherever he ends up.
    Assuming facts not otherwise in evidence?
    Last edited by JasonEvans; 07-22-2017 at 03:21 PM.

  3. #4423
    Quote Originally Posted by Kedsy View Post
    At the ACC level? Antonio has played a grand total of 18 minutes (over two years) against ACC competition (and 7 of those minutes were in a 50+ point rout), and Jack has played 11 minutes against ACC competition (5 of those in the 50+ point rout). I'm sorry but neither of them have shown they can definitely do anything.



    Again, this doesn't seem applicable to either Antonio or Jack, neither of whom were rated anywhere near 30 to 50 -- or even in the top 200.

    Your fears could possibly be somewhat justified regarding Javin, but I don't understand the idea of not going for a top 5 guy so that guys like Antonio and Jack -- ranked outside the top 230 -- can develop. Doesn't make any sense to me at all.
    It makes perfect sense if one is looking at more than just the upcoming season, but looks further down the road. As i've argued before, the OAD always looks better for "now" but almos invariably leaves one is a worse position for the next year, and you'll need to take even more OADs to fill your roster. We've already seen this at Duke where we graudally transitioned from taking 1 a year to taking 2 a year to now where we're having to take 3+eacher year just to even field a starting 5. Taking Bagley now will probably mean that next season we could possibly have a all freshmen starting 5.

    If having Duke fully transition into a copy of UK is how you want the direction of the program to take, then I guess you'd be fine with it. It's not what I want to see.

  4. #4424
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    North Raleigh
    Uuhm.
    Last year we suffered mightily thru injuries.

    If it happens again many of you saying Bagley should "move on" will say "if only we got him" ...
    Can't please everybody.

    Tatum was criticized undeservedly after the state game for trying to do too much and being a ball hog.. no one said a peep after he posterized Meek.

    Get the best players you can and lace them up and see what happens. They don't come her to be coddled and have their hands held. They rise to the situation or they don't. They are happy being along for the ride or they aren't.

    Believe me when I say I hope all our players go out and get a double double every game.

    I don't want competition. I don't want to HAVE to worry about a missed FT. I want to see one last Duke juggernaut team that inspires fear, intimidation and make every opponent think "we're gonna lose, I should have gone to Duke"..,

    And I don't see how you get there with players that can't deliver the mail, or "think" they can deliver the mail against the best.

    If players need a small pond to be their best... that's fine. Nothing but love and good luck. Better to be the biggest fish in the deepest water

    (I know I've got another metaphor somewhere...)

  5. #4425
    Quote Originally Posted by Ian View Post
    It makes perfect sense if one is looking at more than just the upcoming season, but looks further down the road. As i've argued before, the OAD always looks better for "now" but almos invariably leaves one is a worse position for the next year, and you'll need to take even more OADs to fill your roster. We've already seen this at Duke where we graudally transitioned from taking 1 a year to taking 2 a year to now where we're having to take 3+eacher year just to even field a starting 5. Taking Bagley now will probably mean that next season we could possibly have a all freshmen starting 5.

    If having Duke fully transition into a copy of UK is how you want the direction of the program to take, then I guess you'd be fine with it. It's not what I want to see.
    But hasn't Duke always recruited the "best" players? Does anyone think grant hill wouldn't be a one and done or jay Williams? The times have just changed. The only way to avoid the one and done is to only recruit players ranked past 20 or so. I don't want to see that.

  6. #4426
    Quote Originally Posted by LasVegas View Post
    But hasn't Duke always recruited the "best" players? Does anyone think grant hill wouldn't be a one and done or jay Williams? The times have just changed. The only way to avoid the one and done is to only recruit players ranked past 20 or so. I don't want to see that.
    Between that and seeing Duke become nothing more than a sponsor for a pre-draft training program, I'll take it.

  7. #4427
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Lincoln Ne
    Isn't Bagley in town? Any word?

  8. #4428
    Quote Originally Posted by Ian View Post
    Between that and seeing Duke become nothing more than a sponsor for a pre-draft training program, I'll take it.
    Well the pre-draft training program more than likely wins more titles. And I'm all for the route that give Duke the most titles. I guess it depends on what you want out of watching/following Duke basketball.

  9. #4429
    Quote Originally Posted by LasVegas View Post
    Well the pre-draft training program more than likely wins more titles. And I'm all for the route that give Duke the most titles. I guess it depends on what you want out of watching/following Duke basketball.
    ...And life?

  10. #4430
    Quote Originally Posted by LasVegas View Post
    Well the pre-draft training program more than likely wins more titles. And I'm all for the route that give Duke the most titles.
    I definitely would draw a line somewhere on this side of "the route that gives Duke the most titles."

  11. #4431
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Washington DC
    Quote Originally Posted by G man View Post
    Isn't Bagley in town? Any word?
    Two questions on The Bag Man -

    Is he taking the courses necessary to reclassify? Time is growing short.

    Where and when are his other visits? Looks like Arizona and SoCal are the other two. Hope Kentucky doesnt make the cut.

  12. #4432
    Join Date
    Apr 2016
    Location
    Maryland
    Quote Originally Posted by Indoor66 View Post
    ...And life?
    There's a difference?

  13. #4433
    Quote Originally Posted by drummerdevil View Post
    There's a difference?
    Be patient, Grasshopper, and you, too, shall learn.

  14. #4434
    Quote Originally Posted by Ian View Post
    It makes perfect sense if one is looking at more than just the upcoming season, but looks further down the road. As i've argued before, the OAD always looks better for "now" but almos invariably leaves one is a worse position for the next year, and you'll need to take even more OADs to fill your roster. We've already seen this at Duke where we graudally transitioned from taking 1 a year to taking 2 a year to now where we're having to take 3+eacher year just to even field a starting 5. Taking Bagley now will probably mean that next season we could possibly have a all freshmen starting 5.

    If having Duke fully transition into a copy of UK is how you want the direction of the program to take, then I guess you'd be fine with it. It's not what I want to see.
    Duke is not a carbon copy of UK. For one, Duke will have a senior that was a former McDonald's All-American for the 4th year in a row this year. UK has had one the entire tenure of John Calipari (Alex Poythress). We don't have players leave the team for the NBA draft after their sophomore season and go undrafted. UK (and KU, for that matter) has had multiple seasons in which a player has done just that. Players at Duke either leave for the NBA when they are nearly guaranteed of getting drafted - when it is in their best interest -, or they grow and develop. Players aren't scrambling to get out Durham. Contrary to popular opinion, Duke also has had fewer than average players transfer. There were more than 700 players that transferred after the end of the regular season, an average of 2 per Division 1 school. Duke has averaged about 1 transfer per year over the last decade.

    Does this era look like Duke in the late 1990's and early 2000's? No. But we are still competitive every season and often have a championship caliber team. Last year, for example, our team put together an historic run in the ACC Tournament and came home champions. It's a shame we lost in the 2nd round of the NCAA Tournament lest we forget the stirring performance the week before. Hopefully next season, we will have a similarly talented team to enjoy. The fact of the matter is that Coach K is 70 years old and is at the very top of his profession, where he has been for the past 30+ years. It's amazing, and something we don't appreciate enough.

    The very best players aren't going to stay in college for 3-4 years as often as they did 10, 20, or 30 years ago. Every team in the nation is trying to deal with this reality. But our coach and our program still adapts, is still at the top, and looks like it will remain there for the foreseeable future. Enjoy the ride.

  15. #4435
    Quote Originally Posted by DavidBenAkiva View Post
    Duke is not a carbon copy of UK.

    Yet.

    But we certainly look more like them than we did 5 years ago. No we haven't had someone leave after their sophomore year to be undrafted, but we have had someone leave after their freshmen year to be picked in the 2nd round.

    If you can follow patterns and trend lines, it's pretty clear while we are not all the way there yet we are well on our way unless the pattern is reversed.

    That's what people like me are advocating, rather than continuing down this path to the destination we all know its leading to, let's reverse course. I see taking Bagley now as doubling-down on the current course of becoming UK II.

  16. #4436
    Quote Originally Posted by Ian View Post
    As i've argued before, the OAD always looks better for "now" but almos invariably leaves one is a worse position for the next year, and you'll need to take even more OADs to fill your roster.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ian View Post
    I see taking Bagley now as doubling-down on the current course of becoming UK II.
    I don't think it has an effect, one way or the other. How does letting Bagley come to Duke "leave one in a worse position for the next year"? In what way will our roster be different in 2018-19 if our 2017-18 roster includes an additional player? I question your seeming premise, that having good players on your roster makes the backups less capable when it's their turn.

    Sure, some players transfer because they'd rather be starters on a lesser team than backups on a better one, but transfers happen on every team, and some players are going to transfer no matter what (e.g., Derryck Thornton, Elliot Williams). And the idea that seldom-used players of one season can't be big contributors the next is belied by the facts. For example, someone upthread mentioned Marshall Plumlee, but Marshall never played even as many as 10mpg until he was a fifth-year senior, yet he thrived in a 30mpg role when he finally got his chance. Hopefully Javin DeLaurier and Antonio Vrankovic and Jack White will similarly thrive, but if they don't it will probably be because they just weren't capable of that large a role, rather than your apparent assumption that they weren't given enough chances earlier.

  17. #4437
    Making a statement like "transfers happen" as though by saying it, it absolves the current recruiting strategy of any responsiblity in causing them is blatantly turning a blind eye to the problem.

    Sure, no one is suggesting that's the only factor in play, and indeed there are usually multiple reasons that would cause a player to transfer.

    But the evidence is clear as OAD has become part of the recruiting strategy, it's has increasingly become necessary to get more and more of them just to remain competitive each year. If we had only gotten say one OAD type players this year the 2018 team probably would be a bubble team. And it's even more true for next year, without at least 3-4 of them we might not even be a bubble team. The question is, is this the future for Duke Basketball that you'd like to see.

  18. #4438
    Someone on this thread noted that at least sometime in the past year Bagley had a 4.0 GPA. Tyus and Winslow were All-ACC academically. I prefer the old days when players stayed multiple years, too, but, as Coach K says, if someone meets the criteria of showing he can make it academically at Duke, he can fit in culturally at Duke, and he's one of the best basketball players in the country, we've never turned too many of those guys down. I also don't think we can automatically assume that just because someone is a one-and-done that he won't take his academic requirements and dedication to the team seriously during his time at Duke.

  19. #4439
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Winston-Salem, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by Ian View Post
    Yet.

    But we certainly look more like them than we did 5 years ago. No we haven't had someone leave after their sophomore year to be undrafted, but we have had someone leave after their freshmen year to be picked in the 2nd round.

    If you can follow patterns and trend lines, it's pretty clear while we are not all the way there yet we are well on our way unless the pattern is reversed.

    That's what people like me are advocating, rather than continuing down this path to the destination we all know its leading to, let's reverse course. I see taking Bagley now as doubling-down on the current course of becoming UK II.
    I admit I was as upset as anybody (except maybe Ozzie LOL) when Frank signed with an agent. But Frank was taken 31st and signed a contract with 2 guaranteed years with the 3rd year partial. At 19 years old, Frank is following his dream of playing in the NBA and getting paid very handsomely for doing so. By leaving early, if he does well he may get an extra year of good NBA money in his prime.

    No clue, but I'm betting that if Frank and his family knew that contract would be the outcome, they would make the same choice again. Frank bet on himself with the information he had - I have to respect that because it looks like it worked out. Of course I like what Quinn Cook contributed to Duke more than what Frank Jackson did. But if Quinn could have gotten a guaranteed 2 year NBA contract after his first year or been OAD with a first round pick, I'm guessing he would have too. That is what most of the best of these players want to do now, and the system isn't their fault. That is the system imposed on college basketball by the NBA, and in many cases these players are making the best financial decisions by leaving early. Most of Duke's players who have left early recently have received pretty good information and seemingly made pretty good decisions.

    I respect your and others opinions who wish Duke was recruiting more 4 year players. But Duke has adapted and doing the best they can to continue to be successful in this environment. We didn't know that Kennard would be a lottery pick by the end of his sophomore year. But Coach K is probably happy for Luke that he earned that. Or we didn't know that Thornton would want to transfer because his family didn't like how Coach K was using him in our offense.

    So please know that me and probably some other Duke fans just disagree with you, Lotusland, Chillin, and others. I like that Coach K is recruiting the best players, and I'm thrilled that his track record has put us in position to be a serious contender for most guys we recruit.

    It's a well nuanced argument, and you all are right that more experienced older players can beat more talented freshmen, and often do. You all are right that it's probably ideal to get just the right mix of experience and OAD. But oftentimes the best talent wins. And it's hard to always predict development and departure dates of guys like Kennard, Justin Jackson, or Frank Jackson.

    But when our guys leave early and get a good contract, it looks good to recruits. When UNC keeps most highly rated players longer than they should, I think it looks worse to recruits (who understandably want to get to the NBA faster). It worked out for UNC last year and they won a title. But our strategy worked out for us in 2015, and that was one of the most fun Duke seasons I've ever seen.

    I miss the days when good players stayed as long as Battier, Tim Duncan, Grant Hill, etc. But those days are gone if we're recruiting the best players. I respect the opinions of those who don't like recruiting as many OADs as we are. But I love exactly what Coach K is trying to do with our recruiting. just my 2 cents. (DavidBenAkiva said it really well a little upthread).

  20. #4440
    Quote Originally Posted by Ian View Post
    Making a statement like "transfers happen" as though by saying it, it absolves the current recruiting strategy of any responsiblity in causing them is blatantly turning a blind eye to the problem.
    Duke joined the "OAD era," starting with Kyrie Irving in 2010-11. In the seven seasons since (and including that season), Duke has had six (6) transfers:

    Alex Murphy
    Michael Gbinije
    Rasheed Sulaimon
    Semi Ojeleye
    Derryck Thornton
    Chase Jeter

    In the seven seasons immediately before Kyrie arrived on campus (2003-04 to 2009-10), Duke had six (6) transfers:

    Michael Thompson
    Jamal Boykin
    Eric Boateng
    Taylor King
    Elliot Williams
    Olek Czyz


    Absolutely no difference in the number of transfers in the two time periods. So it seems to me that blaming the recent transfers on one-and-dones is "blatantly turning a blind eye" to the fact that transfers happen.

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