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  1. #3221
    Quote Originally Posted by fgb View Post
    i think the point is that at unc it happens on a regular basis.
    When a kid doesn't live up to a national high school ranking is that a flaw in the ranking system or is it a problem for the school that signed him? The examples you gave are Hicks, Pinson, and I will throw in McAdoo. These are local kids that ranked in the top 15 nationally. All three stayed at least three years. Hicks didn't start until his senior season. He basically committed to UNC on the spot. He never considered going to the NBA early. He loved the school and wanted to be there all four year. If this was a Duke player, you would sing his praises. Pinson was horribly over-ranked. He is a playmaker, but not a top 10 player. McAdoo was similar to Pinson, a great athlete that is offensively challenged. He could have made the jump after his freshman season even though he didn't have a break out debut. He struggled his last two years and made the jump before his senior season.

    How do they differ from Jeter or Bolden, other then where they go to school? Neither have lived up to their ranking. Jeter transferred out and Bolden will stick around for a sophomore season. Bad ranking? Better players in front of them? Not ready to contribute? What excuse are you willing to make for them that you are not willing to make for the UNC players?

  2. #3222
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
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    Raleigh, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by freshmanjs View Post
    So if their fans are hypocritical and silly, we should be too?
    No but I'm not going to be too hard on Duke fans complaining. At the same times when UNCheat fans tell me they care about their players and we don't and point out length of stay as a reason...well they don't care much for my reaction.

    Quote Originally Posted by UNCfan View Post
    I agree that the hypocrisy is the issue. I see it on both sides and I will call it out on both sides.
    Yes, both sides are hypocritical. There is one difference however, and that is that UNCheat doesn't just keep it's players longer than Duke, they are keeping them longer than everyone right now. One of the reasons I'm not OK with this is because it's allowed them to span the recruiting lull that they earned by cheating for multiple decades meanwhile Dewey, Cheatem and Howe have delayed punishment. That whole picture, of which keeping players longer is just a piece, does not sit well with me to say the least.

  3. #3223
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
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    NC
    Quote Originally Posted by UNCfan View Post
    When a kid doesn't live up to a national high school ranking is that a flaw in the ranking system or is it a problem for the school that signed him? The examples you gave are Hicks, Pinson, and I will throw in McAdoo. These are local kids that ranked in the top 15 nationally. All three stayed at least three years. Hicks didn't start until his senior season. He basically committed to UNC on the spot. He never considered going to the NBA early. He loved the school and wanted to be there all four year. If this was a Duke player, you would sing his praises. Pinson was horribly over-ranked. He is a playmaker, but not a top 10 player. McAdoo was similar to Pinson, a great athlete that is offensively challenged. He could have made the jump after his freshman season even though he didn't have a break out debut. He struggled his last two years and made the jump before his senior season.

    How do they differ from Jeter or Bolden, other then where they go to school? Neither have lived up to their ranking. Jeter transferred out and Bolden will stick around for a sophomore season. Bad ranking? Better players in front of them? Not ready to contribute? What excuse are you willing to make for them that you are not willing to make for the UNC players?
    McAdoo was not a local kid. He was from Virginia. And he is a clear example of a guy who should have gone while the getting was good. He's roughly the equivalent of Harry Giles. Whereas Giles made the right decision, McAdoo made the wrong one.

    Pinson and Hicks fall in a different category. Both were uber-athletic players who were - because Williams plays a bunch of guys and almost always overplays his veterans relative to his freshmen - sat the bench early. Had they gone to another school, who knows? I don't think either would have been one-and-done, but I wouldn't rule out two-and-done. But, both of those guys were indeed North Carolina products, so they chose the local school.

    Bradley is another interesting case study. Like McAdoo, he's not a local kid. Like McAdoo, he was a backup on a UNC team that did very well, and his warts weren't exposed. Unlike McAdoo, he has chosen to test the waters. If he comes back, I think it will be a mistake in terms of his NBA prospects. Because like McAdoo I'd expect his exposure as a starter to magnify his deficiencies, and it will cause him to lose some of the "projection" benefit that NBA teams fall prey to. In a way, he's closer to Mason Plumlee - a top-25-ish recruit with some raw gifts, but lacking polish who played for a title team and would be a 1st rounder as a freshman on potential alone.

    I don't begrudge UNC for them keeping guys like Pinson and Hicks. Just like I don't begrudge Duke for keeping Jeter for an extra year and Bolden. But it's the slew of top-5 recruits over the years that UNC seems to keep whereas other schools simply don't that is highly annoying. Hansbrough, Wright, Lawson, Ellington, Davis, Henson, Barnes, McAdoo, and Jackson. Those are their last nine top-10 recruits. Only one went pro after one year. Whereas we have had only three top-10 recruits (McRoberts, Singler, and Henderson) of our many many top-10 recruits stick around more than one year in that span. And it is not just Duke. The early-entry rate for top-10 recruits in the last 12 years is extremely high. At UNC, it simply doesn't happen.

    UNC has had an enormous horseshoe up their rear-ends with regards to top-10 recruits not being one-and-dones over the past decade-plus. Which may be a big part of why they haven't had a top-10 recruit in the last 4 recruiting classes, along with the scandal (though I suspect that hasn't really deterred one-and-done candidates, as they'd be gone before the scandal resolve that year anyway). I think that guys who see themselves as one-and-dones have seen that UNC doesn't produce one-and-dones, and have chosen to go elsewhere. Maybe that will swing back in the future, but probably not until UNC gets and sends a few more one-and-dones to the NBA.

  4. #3224
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Quote Originally Posted by flyingdutchdevil View Post
    Why is this a bad thing?
    It wouldn't be IF Duke could retain top-10 players three to four years during the OAD era and not experience consequences on the recruiting trail. If we could pull that off, heck yeah, I'd be on board! But I don't think that's been UNC's experience in recent recruiting cycles, although I think the academic scandal has also played a role.

    Duke and UNC also happen to be going head to head right now for Kevin Knox, a player that definitely wants to be OAD. So when a Duke fan is making fun of UNC for keeping players too long, one of the implications is that UNC doesn't have as much of a chance with Knox as Duke does. Whether they're right or wrong, this is reasonable fan-on-fan trash talk. I support the Duke fan who made the original post and don't feel a need to counter them.

  5. #3225
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
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    Raleigh
    Quote Originally Posted by elvis14 View Post
    So lets not forget history here. There was a time that players stayed longer at Duke than at UNCheat and other schools. UNCheat fans regularly railed against our coach and program stating that he was selfish, was holding players back, only cared about winning and didn't care about these kids because they were staying in school at Duke. Now that it's UNCheat that is keeping players longer, UNCheat fans regularly say that their coach/team cares more about their players, are developing them more, care more about the kids than we do, etc. At the same time UNCheat fans claim that our coach and program are selfish and only care about winning because we are sending players to the NBA early and that we don't care about these kids because they aren't staying etc. So before you ask us to celebrate UNCheat for keeping players longer than any other schools, let's remember what they had to say about us when the shoe was on the other foot. We don't need to give them props for anything! Wanker them all. They cheated for 20 plus years and should be in the middle of 5 year post season ban.
    Only 5?
    [redacted] them and the horses they rode in on.

  6. #3226
    Quote Originally Posted by UNCfan View Post
    When a kid doesn't live up to a national high school ranking is that a flaw in the ranking system or is it a problem for the school that signed him?
    It is all perspective. If Roy wins with young talent - well, ANYONE could win with those guys. If Roy's top talent sticks around, then clearly, he hasn't coached them up to their potential and has cost them millions in draft potential. If the young talent goes early, Roy's inept coaching isn't even worth sticking around for.

    If a Duke one-and-done leaves as expected, he really made the most of the one year he wad required to spend in college and he has blossomed under coach K. If someone sticks around, then they value education and Coach K's tutelage so much that they are willing to forgo riches to learn more.

    Got it?

  7. #3227
    Quote Originally Posted by Olympic Fan View Post
    Fair point, but not quite right. There is a difference between what's been happening the last decade at UNC and what has happened at Duke.

    Relative to their prep rankings, UNC's five star prospects stay in school significantly longer than any other D1 school.

    I've posted this info before, but it's not even close -- top 5 and top 10 and to 25 players stay at UNC much longer than any other school.

    Just this past season, UNC had the highest ranked (as a prep prospect) senior still playing (Isaiah Hicks) and the TWO highest ranked juniors still in school (Theo Pinson and Justin Jackson).

    Jackson (who was ranked almost exactly where Knox is this year) is the only top 10 player in the strong 2014 class that didn't go pro after his freshman year ... and he stayed THREE years.
    Haters accused K of selfishly influencing kids to stay longer at Duke than what would have been in their best interest for years. I heard that most recently about MP2's senior year at Duke. I'm never going to criticize Roy or anyone else for not getting kids to the NBA quick enough. Btw you can still read on UK boards today how X player screwed up their NBA career by choosing Duke over UK . I realize that they are being very one sided but I hope Duke never defines success by how many pros they produced or how quick they can cycle kids through to the pros. I hate UNC, hate their championship but envy how they contended for the past two years with veteran teams of familiar faces.

  8. #3228
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    North of Durham
    Not to hijack this thread too much but in keeping with the recent theme, has anyone seen the 30 for 30 on Calipari? I am far from president of his fan club but it is interesting to see his take on one and dones and his interactions with the players. He saw an opportunity and jumped at it, with the help of World Wide Wes.

  9. #3229
    Quote Originally Posted by CrazyNotCrazie View Post
    Not to hijack this thread too much but in keeping with the recent theme, has anyone seen the 30 for 30 on Calipari? I am far from president of his fan club but it is interesting to see his take on one and dones and his interactions with the players. He saw an opportunity and jumped at it, with the help of World Wide Wes.
    Part of me actually kind of wanted to watch it because I was interested in hearing his take on that, but the problem is I utterly despise him and the thought of having to watch any sort of special on him makes me want to regurgitate whatever food and/or drink I've recently put into my body. But I am interested in his take. But again, he makes me sick to my stomach. So you can see the catch-22 I find myself in haha.

  10. #3230
    Quote Originally Posted by CDu View Post
    McAdoo was not a local kid. He was from Virginia. And he is a clear example of a guy who should have gone while the getting was good. He's roughly the equivalent of Harry Giles. Whereas Giles made the right decision, McAdoo made the wrong one.

    * * *

    Bradley is another interesting case study. Like McAdoo, he's not a local kid. Like McAdoo, he was a backup on a UNC team that did very well, and his warts weren't exposed. Unlike McAdoo, he has chosen to test the waters. If he comes back, I think it will be a mistake in terms of his NBA prospects. Because like McAdoo I'd expect his exposure as a starter to magnify his deficiencies, and it will cause him to lose some of the "projection" benefit that NBA teams fall prey to.
    While I agree with you that McAdoo should probably have left after his freshman year, I don't entirely agree with your characterization of him vis-a-vis the other players you mention. Statistically, he had a much worse freshman season than Giles, and WAY, WAY worse than Bradley. The chart below shows some advanced stats for all three players during their freshman seasons:

    Code:
    Player		PER	TS%	ORB%	DRB%	Usage%	asst%	stl%	blk%	Ortg
    JM McAdoo	17.2	47.8	9.2	15.6	20.6	3.1	3.1	2.1	104.7
    T Bradley	26.1	59.0	18.7	18.9	20.7	7.2	1.0	4.4	129.1
    H Giles		19.8	57.7	16.4	21.5	17.9	5.6	1.7	5.3	115.1
    Comparably, those numbers for McAdoo were horrible. If he could have been drafted in the lottery, or even in the first round, then he should have jumped on it, because his deficiencies were obvious from his play. Giles numbers were much better (though not super-great) and considering his injuries an NBA team might reasonably project him to be significantly better than that.

    Bradley's numbers, on the other hand, were outstanding. Maybe his smaller role made him look better than he was, though if so that's the opposite of McAdoo -- for an NBA team to have drafted JMM after his freshman year they would have had to gamble that the smaller role had diminished his productivity and he'd massively improve with more reps. Unlike McAdoo, Bradley's freshman stats suggest he'd be a monster if given a bigger role. If he chooses to go pro now, good for him, but (again, unlike McAdoo) I don't see any statistical warning signs that suggest his stock would go down as a featured college player.

  11. #3231
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    Boston
    Quote Originally Posted by CrazyNotCrazie View Post
    Not to hijack this thread too much but in keeping with the recent theme, has anyone seen the 30 for 30 on Calipari? I am far from president of his fan club but it is interesting to see his take on one and dones and his interactions with the players. He saw an opportunity and jumped at it, with the help of World Wide Wes.
    I saw it and agree that it was very interesting. I'm fascinated by the way Cal has tailored elements of his program to match the 1&D phenomenon to a much greater degree than his peers. His spiel about serving his players' best interests foremost (UK success being a byproduct of this, rather than the primary objective) is very compelling to blue chip recruits (whether the rest of us agree with it or whether Cal truly believes it or not).

  12. #3232
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    NC
    Quote Originally Posted by Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15 View Post
    It is all perspective. If Roy wins with young talent - well, ANYONE could win with those guys. If Roy's top talent sticks around, then clearly, he hasn't coached them up to their potential and has cost them millions in draft potential. If the young talent goes early, Roy's inept coaching isn't even worth sticking around for.

    If a Duke one-and-done leaves as expected, he really made the most of the one year he wad required to spend in college and he has blossomed under coach K. If someone sticks around, then they value education and Coach K's tutelage so much that they are willing to forgo riches to learn more.

    Got it?
    To be fair, there is certainly hypocrisy in fandom. But I think it is fair to point out how drastically different the results have been for UNC's top-10 recruits in the one-and-done era as compared with the results for every other schools' top-10 recruits. One or two recruits who the recruiting services missed on? Yeah, that can be written off as a fluke. But virtually every single one of the top-10 recruits over a 10-year period? Yeah, that's systemic.

  13. #3233
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    NC
    Quote Originally Posted by Kedsy View Post
    While I agree with you that McAdoo should probably have left after his freshman year, I don't entirely agree with your characterization of him vis-a-vis the other players you mention. Statistically, he had a much worse freshman season than Giles, and WAY, WAY worse than Bradley. The chart below shows some advanced stats for all three players during their freshman seasons:

    Code:
    Player		PER	TS%	ORB%	DRB%	Usage%	asst%	stl%	blk%	Ortg
    JM McAdoo	17.2	47.8	9.2	15.6	20.6	3.1	3.1	2.1	104.7
    T Bradley	26.1	59.0	18.7	18.9	20.7	7.2	1.0	4.4	129.1
    H Giles		19.8	57.7	16.4	21.5	17.9	5.6	1.7	5.3	115.1
    Comparably, those numbers for McAdoo were horrible. If he could have been drafted in the lottery, or even in the first round, then he should have jumped on it, because his deficiencies were obvious from his play. Giles numbers were much better (though not super-great) and considering his injuries an NBA team might reasonably project him to be significantly better than that.

    Bradley's numbers, on the other hand, were outstanding. Maybe his smaller role made him look better than he was, though if so that's the opposite of McAdoo -- for an NBA team to have drafted JMM after his freshman year they would have had to gamble that the smaller role had diminished his productivity and he'd massively improve with more reps. Unlike McAdoo, Bradley's freshman stats suggest he'd be a monster if given a bigger role. If he chooses to go pro now, good for him, but (again, unlike McAdoo) I don't see any statistical warning signs that suggest his stock would go down as a featured college player.
    That's my point. McAdoo absolutely SHOULD have gone. He was an athletic reserve who had a couple of nice moments in the NCAA tournament for a title-contending team. And - as a top-10 recruit with lots of buzz - his stock would have made him a likely lottery pick on potential. He should have cashed in on his "potential" because his skill set was nonexistent at that point. But Williams apparently talked him out of going. So McAdoo stayed. And didn't get better. And didn't get better after staying for his junior year. And it appears that he became fed up and decided to go pro after his junior year even though he wasn't going to be a 1st round pick.

  14. #3234
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
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    Deeetroit City
    Quote Originally Posted by fan345678 View Post
    We all know that if Knox goes to UNC, he'll be there at least three years.
    And should earn class credit in those three years sufficient to get a GED.

  15. #3235
    Sigh ... when talking about one guy, there could always been good explanations as to why they stayed or why they went. And I agree, it's always a fair point to wonder whether a kid's slow development was due to poor coaching or being overrated out of high school.

    But when there is a consistent pattern of guys going or guys staying, that's hard to ignore or excuse. I did this study two years ago, measuring top 10 and top 5 prospects (according to the RSCI) and how long it took them to get to the NBA:

    There are 16 programs that have recruited more than one top 10 prospect since 2006 (the first year prep stars couldn't jump straight to the NBA). Eight schools have recruited five or more. Here’s the list (along with each school’s success at turning potential one-and-dones into real one-and-dones):
    (17) Kentucky – 12 of 17 top 10 (70.5 percent); 8 of 9 top 5 (88.9 percent)
    (8) UNC – 1 of 8 top 10 (12.5 percent); 1 of 4 top 5 (25 percent)
    (7) Duke – 5 of 7 top 10 (71.4 percent); 4 of 4 top 5 (100 percent)
    (5) Kansas – 5 of 5 top 10 (100 percent); 2 of 2 top 5 (100 percent)
    (5) Arizona – 3 of 5 top 10 (60 percent); 2 of 2 top 5 (100 percent)
    (4) UCLA – 3 of 4 top 10 (75 percent); 3 of 4 top 5 (75 percent)
    (4) Texas – 3 of 4 top 10 (75 percent); 2 of 2 top 5 (100 percent)
    (4) Memphis –2 of 4 top 10 (50 percent); 2 of 2 top 5 (100 percent)
    (3) Ohio State – 2 of 3 top 10 (66.7 percent); 1 of 2 top 5 (50 percent)
    (3) Florida – 1 of 3 top 10 (33.3 percent); 1 of 1 top 5 (100 percent)
    (3) Baylor – 2 of 3 top 10 (66.7 percent); 1 of 2 top 5 (50 percent)
    (3) Indiana – 2 of 3 top 10 (66.7 percent); 1 of 1 top 5 (100 percent)
    (2) Georgia Tech – 2 of 2 top 10 (100 percent); 1 of 1 top 5 (100 percent)
    (2) Southern Cal – 2 of 2 top 10 (100 percent); 2 of 2 top 5 (100 percent)
    (2) UNLV – 2 of 2 top 10 (100 percent); no top 5
    (2) Oklahoma State – 0 for 2 top 10 (0 percent); no top 5

    While 64.4 percent of the top 10 prospects are one-and-dones, that number skyrockets when we look at the top five prospects each year – 37 of 45 have gone to the NBA after one college season – 82.2 percent.
    The eight top 5 prospects (with their rank) who did not turn out to be one-and-dones:
    (5) Ty Lawson, UNC – Three years
    (4) Samardo Samuels, Louisville – Two years
    (5) John Henson, UNC – Three years
    (1) Harrison Barnes, UNC – Two years
    (2) Jared Sullinger, Ohio State – Two years
    (3) Kyle Anderson, UCLA – Two years
    (4) Isaiah Austin, Baylor – Two years*
    (5) Andrew Harrison, Kentucky – Two years

    North Carolina's track record in that period sticks out like a sore thumb ... the Tar Heels are easily the worst school at preparing one-and-dones. Not only do they have -- by far -- the worst record at getting top 10 guys into the pros, their record with top 5 guys is astonishing -- there are only two top five guys in the entire era that have stayed three years and both are Tar Heels. There is just one No. 1 prospect in that time to stay two years and he is a Tar Heel (to be fair, if you go back one year earlier, No. 1 Josh McRoberts stayed two years)

    Now, is that a bad thing? Well, it depends -- are the kids staying to improve their NBA chances? To get a degree (or at least closer to a degree)? We can debate those points if you want.

    But the record is clear -- if you are a prep senior and you want to be a one-and-done player, North Carolina is the absolute last place you should want to go.

    PS I haven't updated the above list for the last two years, but updating wouldn't change much -- all three of Duke's top 10 recruits were one-and done (Ingram, Giles and Tatum); UNC hasn't had a top 10 recruit in the last two years, although Justin Jackson would lower UNC's percentage with top 10 guys to 1 of 9 OADs since 2006.

  16. #3236
    Quote Originally Posted by UNCfan View Post
    I agree that the hypocrisy is the issue. I see it on both sides and I will call it out on both sides.
    Totally fair. And you are one of few, maybe the only UNC poster on this board who comes correct, so know that at least some of us appreciate that.

  17. #3237
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Charlotte, NC
    Do we have a shot of signing Mark Smith?

  18. #3238
    Quote Originally Posted by Olympic Fan View Post
    Sigh ... when talking about one guy, there could always been good explanations as to why they stayed or why they went. And I agree, it's always a fair point to wonder whether a kid's slow development was due to poor coaching or being overrated out of high school.

    But when there is a consistent pattern of guys going or guys staying, that's hard to ignore or excuse. I did this study two years ago, measuring top 10 and top 5 prospects (according to the RSCI) and how long it took them to get to the NBA:

    ...

    North Carolina's track record in that period sticks out like a sore thumb ... the Tar Heels are easily the worst school at preparing one-and-dones. Not only do they have -- by far -- the worst record at getting top 10 guys into the pros, their record with top 5 guys is astonishing -- there are only two top five guys in the entire era that have stayed three years and both are Tar Heels. There is just one No. 1 prospect in that time to stay two years and he is a Tar Heel (to be fair, if you go back one year earlier, No. 1 Josh McRoberts stayed two years)

    Now, is that a bad thing? Well, it depends -- are the kids staying to improve their NBA chances? To get a degree (or at least closer to a degree)? We can debate those points if you want.

    But the record is clear -- if you are a prep senior and you want to be a one-and-done player, North Carolina is the absolute last place you should want to go.
    Yes- we all know this. Its been discussed ad nauseum. The real question is- So What????? Roy is still recruiting decent talent (albeit slightly below past years) with back to back Final Fours and a national championship (and if kendall marshall doesnt get hurt in 2012, they probably get another FF in there). All this with an NCAA cloud hanging over his head.

    We all say success is based on performance in March. Or as Herm Edwards says: "You play to win the game." Right now, Roy's winning. Everything else is noise.

  19. #3239
    Quote Originally Posted by SilkyJ View Post
    Yes- we all know this. Its been discussed ad nauseum. The real question is- So What????? Roy is still recruiting decent talent (albeit slightly below past years) with back to back Final Fours and a national championship (and if kendall marshall doesnt get hurt in 2012, they probably get another FF in there). All this with an NCAA cloud hanging over his head.

    We all say success is based on performance in March. Or as Herm Edwards says: "You play to win the game." Right now, Roy's winning. Everything else is noise.
    Oh God, this again ...

    Look, Roy's recruiting remained strong through the fall of 2014 -- when the Wainstein Report was released. He already had on campus five-star freshmen Joel Berry, Justin Jackson and Theo Pinson.

    Since the report was released, his recruiting has taken a nose dive. He's gotten some good players -- two five stars in Tony Bradley and Jalek Felton -- but also a bunch of three stars.

    Skeptics keep saying -- as you do -- that "Roy is still recruiting decent talent and back to back final fours and a national championship" But every starter on those two final four teams was recruited BEFORE the Wainstein Report was released. Yes, he had talent on hand and, yes, he did a great job keeping kids from going pro.

    But his recruiting has suffered ... and we'll start to see it next season, when Berry and Pinson will be the last pre-Wainstein Report holdovers. And they will be seniors.

    Unless Roy can reverse the impact of the NCAA investigation (and the likely penalty this summer), his program will begin to suffer.

    UNC has prospered over the last two seasons -- but they are running of pre-scandal fumes.

  20. #3240
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Winston Salem, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by Olympic Fan View Post
    Fair point, but not quite right. There is a difference between what's been happening the last decade at UNC and what has happened at Duke.

    Relative to their prep rankings, UNC's five star prospects stay in school significantly longer than any other D1 school.

    I've posted this info before, but it's not even close -- top 5 and top 10 and to 25 players stay at UNC much longer than any other school.

    Just this past season, UNC had the highest ranked (as a prep prospect) senior still playing (Isaiah Hicks) and the TWO highest ranked juniors still in school (Theo Pinson and Justin Jackson).

    Jackson (who was ranked almost exactly where Knox is this year) is the only top 10 player in the strong 2014 class that didn't go pro after his freshman year ... and he stayed THREE years.
    Maybe the uncheat players stay longer because they are not required to go to class. Sorry UNCfan. I couldn't resist. GoDuke!

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