Twerps kicking sand on their way out

[Olympic Fan]

Truth be told, while I think the Maryland obsession with Duke is still alive and well, I feel like its intensity level has been...well, not waning, but maybe flattening a bit lately, even before Maryland bolted for the Big Can't Count Conference. It took off in the late 1990s and early 2000s, when Maryland started to become really good, but still...just....couldn't...beat...Duke (at least, not when it counted). Things really went nuclear on the Maryland side in 2001, after the Gone in 60 Seconds game and Duke's huge comeback win over Maryland at the Final Four. I really thought that Maryland winning the national title in 2002 would finally extinguish the inferiority/persecution complex that permeated its fanbase, but it didn't. It stayed at fever pitch for a few more years -- but ultimately, as with all things, generational migration took over.

I agree with this timeline ... I know that through the late 1990s, Gary Williams and the Maryland fanbase was incredibly frustrated with their inability to beat Duke. That frustration peaked in 1999 when the great Stevie Francis/Terrence Morris team was flattened twice by Duke.

But the series changed, not in 2001, but in 2000. Duke went up and whacked the Terps in January (to extend it's winning streak in the series to six straight and 29-5 since 1985). But the next month, Maryland came to Cameron and snapped the longest ACC home winning streak in history. Duke did bounce back to beat Maryland in the ACC Tournament. The four great 2001 games followed. Between that 2000 win and the end of the 2007 season,, Duke-Maryland was as competitive as any series in college basketball -- Duke held a 10-8 edge, only because of a number of close wins -- that was an oddity of that stretch -- Duke won all the close games ... Maryland's wins were all fairly lopsided.

But after 2007, it's been fairly one-sided again. There was a great Maryland win in College Park late in 2010 that gave the Terps a share of the ACC regular season title and two wins in three games in 2013, but basically Duke dominated -- 13-3 after 2007 ... and that took a bit of heat out of the rivalry.

PS Just one addition/quibble with Here Is a Turtle's take on how Debbie Yow got Maryland into such a financial hole. You left out the 2007 economic collapse -- and that wasn't Debbie Yow's fault (I couldn't talk about whose fault it was without getting into PP territory). The economic downturn hurt everybody -- but because Maryland had committed to a massive rebuilding program -- based on projected fund-raising, the Terps were hurt worse than anybody. Their experience explains why Duke is being so slow and careful with its current athletic building project. They don't want to get caught if the economy turns again.

[Here is a Turtle]

You've posted 250 times here in a little over a year. So I don't think you're a particularly good case in point for the claim that there is no Duke obsession among MD fans. Glad to have you here, enjoy your posts, but don't feign a lack of Duke obsession.

P.S. Maryland = not our rival.

Sigh.... You're never going to get it and to try to make you get it is a waste of my time. You have been posting these retorts at me for months now.

Ralph Friedgen was 75-50 as the Maryland Head Coach. His teams went to bowl games in seven out of 10 years. He was fired at the end of a 9-4 season (2010) including a 51-20 victory over East Carolina in the Military Bowl. Maryland's four losses were @West Virginia, @Clemson, @Miami and Florida State. The team went 6-1 at home. Coach Friedgen was the ACC Coach of the Year.

Attendance may have plummeted, but it wasn't because Maryland was not winning.

Remove the three years when he was using Vanderlinden's players (01-03), and he was a mediocre coach who did not want to recruit. His last year was great but that season was a victim of what happened with UVA basketball. He did not really beat anyone notable outside of NC State. And the year before was a 2-10 year that easily could have been 0-12. He was up for contract renewal, and the new AD did not want to extend a contract to a guy in his mid 60s who was mediocre when using his players. Not saying I agree with the decision, but I get it.

The ACC will be fine without Maryland.

Maryland will be fine without the ACC.

Next play.

This.

[gumbomoop]

I hope Turtle stays around, at least for one more season, as I need some optimism re the Terps' prospects for making the 2015 NCAAT. Having placed a friendly wager [I told you so/I am a dimwit] with Olympic Fan, I find myself in the unenviable, if not ban-inducing, position of needing to "support" the Terps, at least just barely enough to hope they'll sneak in as the 68th team. Happy for the ESPN bloviators and Internets to melt down at their inclusion, over, I don't know, Cincy, Georgetown, Arkansas, somebody. Ok by me if they lose in Dayton by 30, but need them to get there. Otherwise, have to admit to dimwittery.

If Turtle is willing to support my "support" for Dez and Jake, I certainly can support his whimsical name change to There Goes a Turtle. Don't go just yet.

[Newton_14]

Except that your "lose-lose" completely negates the financial aspect. If UM felt their sports programs (for whatever reasons) were not financially solvent, they had an obligation to make a move. If the Big Whatever felt that adding Maryland gave them stronger east coast markets and a better TV footprint, you can see their perspective too. Ignoring the money trail and wishing that things could go back to the 8 team conference and good old rivalries is nice and all, but pretending that the reasons don't exist is just silly.

ACC fans don't like it. UM fans don't like it. Big Ten fans don't like it. But it isn't a "lose-lose."

I went to a tiny college that made lots of unpopular financial decisions while I was attending. Given the economic complications of the last ten years, it's quite likely that my small school would have gone under without the tough choices they made at the time.

I would argue that if Maryland really did have to make this move to survive, and the ACC basically traded them for Louisville, this could be a "win-win." Time will tell I suppose.

Until we have the benefit of 20/20 hindsight, I will be satisfied with not having to watch our players get abused by fans in College Park.

Your last line says it all for me. As a lifetime triangle area resident and ACC Traditionalist, I did not want to lose a charter member, however, I will not miss the cursing chants that came through the ESPN TV audio, nor the abuse like the parents (Boozer;s mom) the players (JJ/Scheyer) took at games in College Park

[Tom B.]

I know that through the late 1990s, Gary Williams and the Maryland fanbase was incredibly frustrated with their inability to beat Duke. That frustration peaked in 1999 when the great Stevie Francis/Terrence Morris team was flattened twice by Duke.

Speaking of great flattenings in Duke-Maryland history, let's not forget the previous year (1998), when Duke utterly humiliated a pretty good Maryland team twice, by a combined margin of 59 points.

The first game, in College Park, started with Trajan Langdon nailing a three-pointer right off the opening tip, and Duke never looked back. Duke was up 61-39 at halftime and cruised to a 104-72 victory.

The second game, in Durham, was the game in which Gary Williams got two technicals and was tossed with less than six minutes elapsed in the first half. His ejection came in the middle of a 28-4 run by Duke, who went on to win 86-59.

Good times.

[Faison1]

I've said this once before, but it is worth repeating, in ten years, most students will not know or care about this rivalry unless its in lacrosse or something, even then Hopkins wins by a mile there, just like most current students don't have a problem with Penn State.

Most students, ESPECIALLY at Maryland, are idiots. The people I heard and saw exchanging colorful pleasantries about Duke were not students. They were adults in the workplace, people in airports, jacklegs at bars. It was not a healthy environment.

At least with UNC, there seems to be some sort of sense of humor and sometimes respect amongst their fans. With Maryland inhabitants, it was a deep seeded hate mixed with unbridled viciousness directed towards anyone in dark blue.

So, no, you're kidding yourself if you think that's disappearing anywhere else than the surface.

[CameronBornAndBred]

A lot of damage was caused by the previous AD, Debbie Yow, who is currently at NC State. Basically, when the early 2000s happened and Maryland was a top ten team in football and basketball, Yow began building on the football stadium and adding premium seating and built the Comcast Center. She was banking on the fact that the attendance would keep increasing because both teams would put a good product on the field. Then Fridgen and Williams forgot how to recruit and the results were middling at best and attendance plummeted, especially in football.

Maryland had a huge rainy day fund set up from the basketball teams success in the 90s and 2000s and used it to pay off the rising debt. Yow also rubbed a lot of boosters the wrong way, and basically slowed down athletic donations to a crawl. Once she realized how bad the situation got, Yow looked for an out which came from NC State. She took the job and left the athletic department in a ton of debt. The positive thing she did was make the Maryland non-revs more well rounded, especially in soccer where I wish that money to expand the football stadium went.

But that still does not dismiss that her decisions, however right or wrong they were at the time, is a large part of the reason that things unfolded like they did. There was talk about Maryland to the Big Ten for at least 5 years.




Again, from a student perspective, most just want to leave the ACC and be done with it. I think the Duke obsession is overstated here. Do a lot of people still care? Of course, it's fresh. Will people care in five years? I'd argue no, especially if Maryland/Georgetown happens consistently after the B10/BEast challenge forces them to play each other.
I've said this once before, but it is worth repeating, in ten years, most students will not know or care about this rivalry unless its in lacrosse or something, even then Hopkins wins by a mile there, just like most current students don't have a problem with Penn State.

That is a solid post, I appreciate the history lesson from a Terp's perspective. I read your comments on the football aspect, and I wonder with an apprehensive fear that Duke is heading down the same road. I'd rather see our team succeed for a little while longer before we make the bold changes that we are. Some of them are long overdue, such as the removal of the track, but I don't agree with the new seating and the rebuilding of the press box. Parking is due to be a disaster in the coming seasons with changes in Iron Duke pass requirements. I would much rather see us prove that we can fill the seats and the parking lots we currently have before we start charging a premium for those amenities. Last year was a great football season, but if you were there all year, you saw the numbers on game day actually decrease. Charge more, and you will see more of the same I fear.
There is a lot that any team can learn from Maryland's mistakes; Duke would be wise to view them in depth.

[weezie]

Parking is due to be a disaster in the coming seasons with changes in Iron Duke pass requirements. I would much rather see us prove that we can fill the seats and the parking lots we currently have before we start charging a premium for those amenities.

Hear, hear brother. We've got a running joke in this family that if we ever have 35 mil in loose change sitting around we're going to donate/build the 'weezie family' Duke parking structure for the benefit of all Duke sport fans and ensure that no Duke fan has to pay for parking ever again. Sure, visiting team fans have to pay though. Some kind of a forehead tattoo will be involved, I think.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

There is a lot that any team can learn from Maryland's mistakes; Duke would be wise to view them in depth.

But it is so much easier and so much more fun to make poke at our little cousin instead of learning from their mistakes.

[Bob Green]

I'd rather see our team succeed for a little while longer before we make the bold changes that we are. Some of them are long overdue, such as the removal of the track, but I don't agree with the new seating and the rebuilding of the press box.

I agree the track needs to go as part of a stadium renovation. What I don't know/understand is the details of the renovation. What renovations need to take place? Does the press box need to be rebuilt? I have no idea. Do more seats need to be added? I don't think so because we can't fill the stadium to capacity as is. My expectation is attendance will be up in 2014, but I expected the same in 2013 and it did not happen. As far as Luxury Boxes being added, who is going to rent them?

It seems Duke is moving forward slowly by ensuring funding is in place prior to renovations being executed. That is a very smart strategy. I am not excited by the prospect of parking become more difficult or my season ticket prices increasing.

[DU82]

I agree the track needs to go as part of a stadium renovation. What I don't know/understand is the details of the renovation. What renovations need to take place? Does the press box need to be rebuilt? I have no idea. Do more seats need to be added? I don't think so because we can't fill the stadium to capacity as is. My expectation is attendance will be up in 2014, but I expected the same in 2013 and it did not happen. As far as Luxury Boxes being added, who is going to rent them?

It seems Duke is moving forward slowly by ensuring funding is in place prior to renovations being executed. That is a very smart strategy. I am not excited by the prospect of parking become more difficult or my season ticket prices increasing.

Here's links to the site plans submitted to the City for the east gate renovations and west tower (press box) and concourse modifications. (Can't find the stadium modification/track removal plans right now. The City may have removed them. There's a previous thread on this subject.)

http://durhamnc.gov/ich/cb/ccpd/DevR...%20Review).pdf

http://durhamnc.gov/ich/cb/ccpd/DevR...0SP%20Set).pdf

I was originally against the track removal, as I didn't see why we would remove the chances of hosting a major meet, plus spending money on building something we already had. But a story about the track team changed my mind. They have very limited access to facilities during football season, since the football team had priority. With schedules so tight, multi-function facilities create a problem. It's one reason Duke built the new basketball practice facility, so that Cameron could be used primarily for games/matches.

Same with the sports medicine facility. The sports facilities team doesn't get access to the facility until late Friday evening, after the medical teams are finished. It also limits the medical side from providing services during fall weekends.

What worked in the '20s and '80s (when the stadium and track were built, and when the sports medicine facility was opened) isn't necessarily the case now. Same with other facilities across campus, most noteworthy the library and union right now. Of course, there's the thought that the new club seating will provide additional revenue, hopefully paying for itself. But most of the changes are to bring WW up to modern standards (the bathrooms, as I'm sure you know, date back to the original stadium. The new facilities are very much appreciated!)

Regarding the stadium changes, there's a story on GoDuke.com, written by Al Featherston, on the facility upgrade plans
http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.db...CLID=209543028

the first changes to be finished will be removing the track, lowering the field about five feet, and adding about seven rows of seats on the sidelines, and ten in the end zone. The field will be centered in the bowl (moving it about 2.5 yards towards the closed end.) It seems from publicity/articles (but a detail not shown in the site plans) that the new stadium walls will have a "Duke Stone" veneer similar to the facade on the new bathroom facilities. This should be completed in time for the 2015 season.

The east gate will be moved a little towards the open end of the stadium, and the concourse will be leveled and "enhanced" (my word) by putting in a difference surface and removing the asphalt. New concession stands will be included. The president's box will be removed with new handicapped accessible seating at the top of most sections added. This also should be completed for the 2015 season.

The west tower (press box) will also include leveling the concourse, with the entrance being modified to include a bridge connecting it to the second level of the press box, and ramps going down to the entrance to the main concourse. (From a grade standpoint, this makes sense, the entrance currently is well above the concourse at the top of the seating area.)

There's also plans for a multi-level parking deck to be built on the current 751 lot starting in early 2015. This will provide parking for sporting events, but primarily serve the business and law schools.

[Capn Poptart]

In a weird way, both sides ultimately emerged as winners.

Maryland has had a large chip on its shoulder for decades, living some kind of Nixonian paranoia about Duke, the ACC and the state of North Carolina. If they lost a big game, or attendance flagged, or they weren't showcased by ESPN, well, everybody was against the Terps.

Or, at the very least, Maryland was in an inferior position, because the North Carolina schools had the protection of some sort of ACC version of the Knights Templar. The refs, the conference brass, the media, all swearing oaths under a full Greensboro moon, conspiring to deny Maryland its true potential.

Now, Maryland's debts have conspired to lure them from a place they haven't been happy for years. They have what they always seemed to want.

And ACC fans get to replace an eternally disgruntled fan base with one that's elated.

Funny how things work out.

[formerdukeathlete]

Here's links to the site plans submitted to the City for the east gate renovations and west tower (press box) and concourse modifications. (Can't find the stadium modification/track removal plans right now. The City may have removed them. There's a previous thread on this subject.)

http://durhamnc.gov/ich/cb/ccpd/DevR...%20Review).pdf

http://durhamnc.gov/ich/cb/ccpd/DevR...0SP%20Set).pdf

I was originally against the track removal, as I didn't see why we would remove the chances of hosting a major meet, plus spending money on building something we already had. But a story about the track team changed my mind. They have very limited access to facilities during football season, since the football team had priority. With schedules so tight, multi-function facilities create a problem. It's one reason Duke built the new basketball practice facility, so that Cameron could be used primarily for games/matches.

Same with the sports medicine facility. The sports facilities team doesn't get access to the facility until late Friday evening, after the medical teams are finished. It also limits the medical side from providing services during fall weekends.

What worked in the '20s and '80s (when the stadium and track were built, and when the sports medicine facility was opened) isn't necessarily the case now. Same with other facilities across campus, most noteworthy the library and union right now. Of course, there's the thought that the new club seating will provide additional revenue, hopefully paying for itself. But most of the changes are to bring WW up to modern standards (the bathrooms, as I'm sure you know, date back to the original stadium. The new facilities are very much appreciated!)

Regarding the stadium changes, there's a story on GoDuke.com, written by Al Featherston, on the facility upgrade plans
http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.db...CLID=209543028

the first changes to be finished will be removing the track, lowering the field about five feet, and adding about seven rows of seats on the sidelines, and ten in the end zone. The field will be centered in the bowl (moving it about 2.5 yards towards the closed end.) It seems from publicity/articles (but a detail not shown in the site plans) that the new stadium walls will have a "Duke Stone" veneer similar to the facade on the new bathroom facilities. This should be completed in time for the 2015 season.

The east gate will be moved a little towards the open end of the stadium, and the concourse will be leveled and "enhanced" (my word) by putting in a difference surface and removing the asphalt. New concession stands will be included. The president's box will be removed with new handicapped accessible seating at the top of most sections added. This also should be completed for the 2015 season.

The west tower (press box) will also include leveling the concourse, with the entrance being modified to include a bridge connecting it to the second level of the press box, and ramps going down to the entrance to the main concourse. (From a grade standpoint, this makes sense, the entrance currently is well above the concourse at the top of the seating area.)

There's also plans for a multi-level parking deck to be built on the current 751 lot starting in early 2015. This will provide parking for sporting events, but primarily serve the business and law schools.

wallace wade renovation 2.jpg

The differences between the plans for lowering the field which you linked in the other thread and the plans which were highlighted in President Brodhead's Athletic Department fundraising video were that the rows of added seating along each sideline varied in elevation as well length - more seats were added on the sidelines in the fundraising video.

In the field lowering plan highlighted in the other thread, one set of continuous rows of seats were added as the field was lowered. The number of rows added and the length of these rows were limited as the oval of such seats approached NCAA minimum distances from the sidelines.

In the fundraising video, a second set of seats and rows were added within the first oval. The length and numbers of rows added within the rows in the second oval were again limited by minimum required distances from the sidelines as these seats were added. In the fundraising video, in effect, we added two concentric sets of ovals of rows of seats along each sideline rather than a single set of rows.

This creates a more intimate venue (seating is closer to the field at the 50 yard line).

I have read some things out of the Athletic Department which suggest that the field lowering plan may be in the process of being tweaked.

[DU82]

wallace wade renovation 2.jpg

The differences between the plans for lowering the field which you linked in the other thread and the plans which were highlighted in President Brodhead's Athletic Department fundraising video were that the rows of added seating along each sideline varied in elevation as well length - more seats were added on the sidelines in the fundraising video.

In the field lowering plan highlighted in the other thread, one set of continuous rows of seats were added as the field was lowered. The number of rows added and the length of these rows were limited as the oval of such seats approached NCAA minimum distances from the sidelines.

In the fundraising video, a second set of seats and rows were added within the first oval. The length and numbers of rows added within the rows in the second oval were again limited by minimum required distances from the sidelines as these seats were added. In the fundraising video, in effect, we added two concentric sets of ovals of rows of seats along each sideline rather than a single set of rows.

This creates a more intimate venue (seating is closer to the field at the 50 yard line).

I have read some things out of the Athletic Department which suggest that the field lowering plan may be in the process of being tweaked.

If you have specifics about the last item, please provide a link. Otherwise I'm not interested in repeating the same thread from TDD.

[blazindw]

I agree the track needs to go as part of a stadium renovation. What I don't know/understand is the details of the renovation. What renovations need to take place? Does the press box need to be rebuilt? I have no idea. Do more seats need to be added? I don't think so because we can't fill the stadium to capacity as is. My expectation is attendance will be up in 2014, but I expected the same in 2013 and it did not happen. As far as Luxury Boxes being added, who is going to rent them?

It seems Duke is moving forward slowly by ensuring funding is in place prior to renovations being executed. That is a very smart strategy. I am not excited by the prospect of parking become more difficult or my season ticket prices increasing.

The gradual adding of the seats, replacing the bleachers, will be how we can add rows and still not increase in capacity that much. I believe in the end, the entire stadium with the exception of the student section will be actual seats. I know initially expansion plans would have seen capacity go up into the neighborhood of 45,000, but I think those plans have been tempered a little bit to the high-30s.

[JasonEvans]

when the early 2000s happened and Maryland was a top ten team in football and basketball,

There is a little bit of revisionist history going on here. In 2001-2003, the Terps were ranked #11, #13, and #17 in the AP poll at the end of the year. They were ranked inside the top ten a grand total of 3 weeks during those 3 years (twice at #10, once at #6). In 2002 and 2003, they were barely a top 25 team all season long, but managed to win their bowl game and valuted into the teens as a result. But, to describe the football program as "Top ten" during the early 2000s may be overstating things a bit.

Big 10 football is going to be an uphill climb. I think that we will be competitive and potentially make a bowl game this year, but I definitely don't expect a winning record in conference play for a few years.

I think projecting Maryland to make a bowl game their first season in the Big Ten is quite a leap. Last year, Maryland barely snuck their way into a lower-tier bowl and got whupped by Marshall in that bowl game. This coming season, they get a gift from the Big Ten by playing Rutgers, but the rest of their Big Ten slate is pretty tough (outside of Indiana). Teams like Ohio State, Michigan, Michigan St, Wisconsin, Penn St, and even Iowa are probably going to make a mess of Maryland. Maybe the Terps will surprise and do better than expected in the Big Ten (and I'd love to see it happen, because it would reflect well on the ACC), but I am not sure I see it.

-Jason "I am hoping Maryland can be more competitive in Big Ten basketball, though I am not overly optimistic -- I don't think much of Turgeon as a coach" Evans

[formerdukeathlete]

If you have specifics about the last item, please provide a link. Otherwise I'm not interested in repeating the same thread from TDD.

Apologies to the mods for touching again on the stadium which became part of this thread.

"Cragg said plans are for Wallace Wade Stadium’s track to be removed, the playing field lowered and around 4,000 new seats along the field added in time for the 2015 season." http://www.heraldsun.com/news/localn...t-Wallace-Wade

July 8th Herald Sun.

What I am interested in is that our folks at Duke may be taking another look at how to lower the field. The fundraising video depicted lowering the field 10 feet or more, adding more seating on the sidelines (about 60 to 70% more). More rows of end-zone seating would be added as well.

Virginia Tech's stadium illustrates converging an oval shape as close as possible to the field. Notice how intimate a setting is achieved at Virginia Tech. What is proposed in the Fundraising video is simpler - 2 concentric ovals as the stadium is brought down rather than the 4 in Lane Stadium. But it does achieve a much more intimate setting for Wade than when lowering the field 5 feet and adding a little less than 3k in seats.

Virginia_Tech_Lane_Stadium.jpg

[Duvall]

If you have specifics about the last item...

Why would you do this

[Duvall]

I hope Turtle stays around, at least for one more season, as I need some optimism re the Terps' prospects for making the 2015 NCAAT. Having placed a friendly wager [I told you so/I am a dimwit] with Olympic Fan, I find myself in the unenviable, if not ban-inducing, position of needing to "support" the Terps, at least just barely enough to hope they'll sneak in as the 68th team. Happy for the ESPN bloviators and Internets to melt down at their inclusion, over, I don't know, Cincy, Georgetown, Arkansas, somebody. Ok by me if they lose in Dayton by 30, but need them to get there. Otherwise, have to admit to dimwittery.

If Turtle is willing to support my "support" for Dez and Jake, I certainly can support his whimsical name change to There Goes a Turtle. Don't go just yet.

Wager update.

Trayvon Reed’s career as a Maryland basketball player has ended before it even began, after his arrest Wednesday night in College Park caused the athletic department to prohibit him from enrolling in classes.

...

Reed was arrested shortly before midnight Wednesday following an incident outside a 7-Eleven convenience store on Route 1, adjacent to campus.

According to court documents, two plainclothes officers working in the store saw Reed putting a Twix ice cream bar into his pants pocket and leaving the store without paying.

[FerryFor50]

Wager update.

Weird. Career over for a kid because he stole a Twix ice cream bar, but this guy steals crab legs (which are WAY more expensive) and still is in school, playing both football and baseball?

Yea, that seems about right.

(granted, part of the issue sounds like he fought the officer. But I wonder if the officer produced proof he was an officer)