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  1. #1
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    John Feinstein Is Wrong About Len Bias

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/sports...d23_story.html

    I found this article, in which John Feinstein argues that Len Bias should not be honored at Maryland, to be arrogant, mean-spirited, and totally tone deaf. I don't know how you could look at what happened to Len Bias as anything other than a great tragedy, and would hope that if something similar ever happened to a Duke great, that we would respond only with compassion.

    I've never started a thread before, and I know this is not directly about Duke Basketball (though our great comeback against Maryland in the 2001 Final Four gets a mention) but it's the off-season, and given the author and the subject, I thought this was worth the Board's attention.

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Monmouth77 View Post
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/sports...d23_story.html

    I found this article, in which John Feinstein argues that Len Bias should not be honored at Maryland, to be arrogant, mean-spirited, and totally tone deaf. I don't know how you could look at what happened to Len Bias as anything other than a great tragedy, and would hope that if something similar ever happened to a Duke great, that we would respond only with compassion.

    I've never started a thread before, and I know this is not directly about Duke Basketball (though our great comeback against Maryland in the 2001 Final Four gets a mention) but it's the off-season, and given the author and the subject, I thought this was worth the Board's attention.
    Feinstein? Arrogant?

    surely you jest.

    He has some really good stuff, but he's quite steadfast in his opinions, and he will shout them down your throat come hell, high water, or rebuttal
    1200. DDMF.

  3. #3
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    Did John Feinstein lose a bet?

    Even stranger than the argument he is making is the idea that he can find enough outrage within him to have a contrary opinion. Aside from writing a few old books about college hoops in general and living in the area, he has no connection with Maryland's basketball program. A lawyer would say he lacks standing.

    By way of analogy, maybe there is some issue at LSU that may attract my attention, but even if it did, I doubt I would feel strongly enough to publish an unpopular opinion. It would be like me complaining about LSU honoring Shaquille O'Neal with a campus statue because he couldn't hit free throws in the NBA.

    It's not just a dumb argument, it's an outsider manufacturing enough interest to make a dumb argument.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Monmouth77 View Post
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/sports...d23_story.html

    I found this article, in which John Feinstein argues that Len Bias should not be honored at Maryland, to be arrogant, mean-spirited, and totally tone deaf. I don't know how you could look at what happened to Len Bias as anything other than a great tragedy, and would hope that if something similar ever happened to a Duke great, that we would respond only with compassion.

    I've never started a thread before, and I know this is not directly about Duke Basketball (though our great comeback against Maryland in the 2001 Final Four gets a mention) but it's the off-season, and given the author and the subject, I thought this was worth the Board's attention.
    Feinstein states that Bias made poor judgements in terms of his associates, and implies that it wasn't Bias's first use of cocaine. Yes, his death was tragic, but no one held him down and forced cocaine up his nose or forced him to inject himself. And his death had pretty terrible consequences on the Maryland basketball program and the broader university as a whole.

    I don't know that I agree with Feinstein here, but I think his argument is valid. Bias and Rose were both undone by their own choices, and while the heights they achieved while playing were spectacular, so were their falls, and the consequences to those around them. Does that mean that they shouldn't be honored? He argues yes.
    JBDuke

    Andre Dawkins: “People ask me if I can still shoot, and I ask them if they can still breathe. That’s kind of the same thing.”

  5. #5
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    Probably should just make this a "John Feinstein Is Wrong" omnibus thread.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by JBDuke View Post
    Feinstein states that Bias made poor judgements in terms of his associates, and implies that it wasn't Bias's first use of cocaine. Yes, his death was tragic, but no one held him down and forced cocaine up his nose or forced him to inject himself. And his death had pretty terrible consequences on the Maryland basketball program and the broader university as a whole.

    I don't know that I agree with Feinstein here, but I think his argument is valid. Bias and Rose were both undone by their own choices, and while the heights they achieved while playing were spectacular, so were their falls, and the consequences to those around them. Does that mean that they shouldn't be honored? He argues yes.
    I'm among those who say Pete Rose should go in the Hall of Fame. But even so, I think it's pretty easy to distinguish Rose's crimes as significantly graver in terms of sporting worthiness. He bet on baseball. He almost certainly bet on games when he had an influence over the results. That's very bad.

    Len Bias, on the other hand, took a drug lots of people with statues and plaques and banners dedicated to themselves have also taken. He just happened to suffer catastrophic consequences as a result. Cocaine is not a moral failing. It might be quite inadvisable, but it is not proof of moral turpitude. Our last two presidents snorted cocaine, and we reelected both of them. I think Maryland should be allowed to celebrate its transcendent player in peace without an (admittedly apostate) Duke grad wagging his ponderous finger at them.

  7. #7
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    I was happy to see the Terps go, and really don't care much about whether they honor a former player.

    Feinstein isn't happy unless he's scolding someone.

  8. #8
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    Len Bias was an absolutely phenomenal player. As I linked in the Bias thread, I tweeted Jay Bilas and asked what it was like to play against him. Jay's response was "shock and awe. He was an awesome player."

    I will take Jay's opinion, and the games I personally watched him play, over anything.

    As far as JF's central argument -- that Bias' death set Md back so far that he should not be honored -- isn't that up to Md to decide? I defer to those who live in the community over an outside opinion (either mine or JF's).


    Oh, and Pete Rose should be in the HOF. And Shoeless Joe Jackson.


    And beer should be free on Fridays.


    Don't get me started.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by JBDuke View Post
    Feinstein states that Bias made poor judgements in terms of his associates, and implies that it wasn't Bias's first use of cocaine. Yes, his death was tragic, but no one held him down and forced cocaine up his nose or forced him to inject himself. And his death had pretty terrible consequences on the Maryland basketball program and the broader university as a whole.

    I don't know that I agree with Feinstein here, but I think his argument is valid. Bias and Rose were both undone by their own choices, and while the heights they achieved while playing were spectacular, so were their falls, and the consequences to those around them. Does that mean that they shouldn't be honored? He argues yes.
    JB, buddy, you know I respect your opinions and often agree, but have to go down the opposite street on this one. We had another thread on Bias recently and sorry for repeating my arguments here but I have to. Len Bias died a tragic death. As Des mentions above, many wiser, older, more mature men and women in this Country have ingested that exact same drug often, without paying anything other than hard earned cash. We are around pot, cocaine, and alcohol users every single day at our jobs, the mall, supermarket, and yes even on Sunday when when some of us sit in our church pews. Len Bias was a kid who hung around the wrong people, made some bad choices, and unfortunately paid THE ultimate price for his unwise choice. That does not make him a bad person, a thug, or immoral. Sure it wasn't his first time. That's well documented. We will never know if, after getting to Boston, and surrounded by hall of famers and grown men with more life experience, he would have made better choices, leaving drugs behind. I choose to believe he would have. Or he could have gone the way of Phil Ford and David Thompson (both of whom killed their career's but somehow survived it all). We will never know. But I fully believe we should remember Bias the great player with the great smile, fondly, and view his death as tragic.

    He should absolutely be honored at Maryland in my opinion.

    As for the destruction of Maryland's program that followed, that's on Bob Wade, not Len Bias. Again, just my opinion.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Newton_14 View Post
    ... As for the destruction of Maryland's program that followed, that's on Bob Wade, not Len Bias ...
    It could also be on Lefty, who Feinstein has campaigned to be in the Hall of Fame (Naismith, not Maryland, if I'm remembering correctly). Maryland at the time of Bias's death was not a saintly program, and its un-saintliness and ultimate demise was not the result of one four-year player, but rather of the administration and coach and culture. Bias's death may have shone a spotlight on the program; his death did not cause all that the spotlight highlighted.

  11. #11
    I have no opinion as to who some lame Big Ten school should or should not honor. That's their business.

    But please don't try to tell me Len Bias was some innocent victim of something a lot of people did.

    Isiah Austin was an innocent victim of something beyond his control. Bobby Hurley's pro career was wrecked by a drunk driver. That was not his fault.

    Len Bias died because he took an overdose of an illegal drug. Yeah, a lot of other people did coke and got away with it, but in my mind, that does not absolve his responsibility for his own death. There is a reason that cocaine is an illegal drug ... not only is it dangerous in itself, the use of cocaine has brought a lot of misery to this country. It's not some innocent pastime that he was engaged in.

    And FWIW, OldphiKap and I will just have to disagree on Pete Rose and Joe Jackson. Two scumbags -- one of whom bet on games that he could influence ... the other took money to throw a world series. There's not place for them in the HOF.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Olympic Fan View Post
    I have no opinion as to who some lame Big Ten school should or should not honor. That's their business.

    But please don't try to tell me Len Bias was some innocent victim of something a lot of people did.

    Isiah Austin was an innocent victim of something beyond his control. Bobby Hurley's pro career was wrecked by a drunk driver. That was not his fault.

    Len Bias died because he took an overdose of an illegal drug. Yeah, a lot of other people did coke and got away with it, but in my mind, that does not absolve his responsibility for his own death. There is a reason that cocaine is an illegal drug ... not only is it dangerous in itself, the use of cocaine has brought a lot of misery to this country. It's not some innocent pastime that he was engaged in.

    And FWIW, OldphiKap and I will just have to disagree on Pete Rose and Joe Jackson. Two scumbags -- one of whom bet on games that he could influence ... the other took money to throw a world series. There's not place for them in the HOF.
    I don't want to speak for others, but it's not my impression anyone is absolving Bias of responsibility for his own death. Of course that's on him. Rather, I just don't see how overdosing on cocaine makes him unworthy of being celebrated for his amazing contributions as a basketball player. There are obviously times when an individual's private actions make he or she an inappropriate subject to be celebrated in their professional or athletic fields. I do not believe this is one of those times. Cocaine use in and of itself doesn't make you a bad person.

  13. #13

    Why put him in the Hall of Fame

    Quote Originally Posted by Olympic Fan View Post
    I have no opinion as to who some lame Big Ten school should or should not honor. That's their business.

    But please don't try to tell me Len Bias was some innocent victim of something a lot of people did.

    Isiah Austin was an innocent victim of something beyond his control. Bobby Hurley's pro career was wrecked by a drunk driver. That was not his fault.

    Len Bias died because he took an overdose of an illegal drug. Yeah, a lot of other people did coke and got away with it, but in my mind, that does not absolve his responsibility for his own death. There is a reason that cocaine is an illegal drug ... not only is it dangerous in itself, the use of cocaine has brought a lot of misery to this country. It's not some innocent pastime that he was engaged in.

    And FWIW, OldphiKap and I will just have to disagree on Pete Rose and Joe Jackson. Two scumbags -- one of whom bet on games that he could influence ... the other took money to throw a world series. There's not place for them in the HOF.
    First of I agree completely with you that Rose and Jackson are scumbags and there is not place for them in the HOF. PERIOD.

    Bias is another matter, in my opinion. He did not bet or throw basketball games (to our knowledge anyway). On the court he was spectacular, off the court he got involved in something that lots of people do and it turned out tragically for him. I would put him in the Maryland HOF.

    SoCal

  14. #14
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    I have far more respect for Len Bias than Feinstein.
    Love, Ima

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Newton_14 View Post
    JB, buddy, you know I respect your opinions and often agree, but have to go down the opposite street on this one. We had another thread on Bias recently and sorry for repeating my arguments here but I have to. Len Bias died a tragic death. As Des mentions above, many wiser, older, more mature men and women in this Country have ingested that exact same drug often, without paying anything other than hard earned cash. We are around pot, cocaine, and alcohol users every single day at our jobs, the mall, supermarket, and yes even on Sunday when when some of us sit in our church pews. Len Bias was a kid who hung around the wrong people, made some bad choices, and unfortunately paid THE ultimate price for his unwise choice. That does not make him a bad person, a thug, or immoral. Sure it wasn't his first time. That's well documented. We will never know if, after getting to Boston, and surrounded by hall of famers and grown men with more life experience, he would have made better choices, leaving drugs behind. I choose to believe he would have. Or he could have gone the way of Phil Ford and David Thompson (both of whom killed their career's but somehow survived it all). We will never know. But I fully believe we should remember Bias the great player with the great smile, fondly, and view his death as tragic.

    He should absolutely be honored at Maryland in my opinion.

    As for the destruction of Maryland's program that followed, that's on Bob Wade, not Len Bias. Again, just my opinion.
    I'm not sure I agree with Feinstein myself, I just think he has a valid argument. I'm not trying to equate Bias and Rose - one killed himself and indirectly damaged his alma mater. The other took actions that undermine faith in his game's integrity and then lied to cover it up and remains, essentially, unrepentant. And I tend to agree with Olympic Fan and others that have stated that if Maryland wants to honor him, it's really none of my business.

    But do I think he deserves it? That I'm not so sure about, and that's where I quibble a bit with what you wrote above.

    You say Bias wasn't immoral, and I'm not about to make the case that he was immoral to the core - I didn't know him that well. But, in my book, when he chose to use an illegal drug and when he chose to continue using it (to the extent that it was a voluntary choice, given the possibility of addiction), those were immoral decisions. That immoral decision damaged Maryland's program, devastated its fans, and led to Lefty's departure. That was significantly damaging to the program. Maryland made the mistake of hiring Bob Wade, who did further damage through his own immoral choices. But he wouldn't have had that opportunity if Bias hadn't died in the first place.

    You may be right in that Bias might have cleaned up his act in the pros and found a way to redeem himself from his immoral choice, but we'll never know that, will we? That's part of what makes his death tragic.

    So, does a player who makes an unredeemed immoral choice that leads directly to damage to his alma mater, and indirectly to even greater damage, deserve to be honored? That's what I'm not sure about. Of course, it's Maryland's choice, not mine.

    I'm also curious about the timing of the move. My opinion is that it's a sop by the Maryland administration to fans objecting to the Big 10 move. Honor a part of their ACC past to shut some of those folks up, at least for a while.
    JBDuke

    Andre Dawkins: “People ask me if I can still shoot, and I ask them if they can still breathe. That’s kind of the same thing.”

  16. #16
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    The way I look at it is that you have to judge him on his time at Maryland as a player, not after. He died after his collegiate career was over, even if only by a matter of weeks.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Len_Bias

    That would put just about anyone in anybody's HOF. The problem for the Twerps is that Bias' death exposed the corrupt system they were running, which SHOULD be viewed as a positive by anyone, but with rose tinted glasses is obviously seen as a negative.

    The circumstances surrounding Bias's death threw the University of Maryland and its athletics program into turmoil. An investigation revealed that Bias was 21 credits short of the graduation requirement despite having used all his athletic eligibility.[13] On August 26, 1986, State's Attorney Arthur A. Marshall Jr. stated that in the hours after Bias's death, Maryland head basketball coach Lefty Driesell told players to remove drugs from Bias's dorm room.[13] Two days later, Bias's father, James, accused the University of Maryland, and Driesell specifically, of neglecting the academic status of its athletes.[13] TheNational Collegiate Athletic Association subsequently began its investigation into the affair that fall.
    The controversy prompted athletic director Dick Dull to resign October 7, 1986, with Driesell following suit October 29, after serving as the Terrapins' coach for 17 years.[13] The grand jury presiding over the Bias case issued a final report on February 26, 1987, that criticized the University of Maryland's athletic department, admissions office, and campus police.
    The similarities between UMD and UNC in that one bold statement are spooky. At least nobody died in Chapel Hill to bring things to light.
    Q "Why do you like Duke, you didn't even go there." A "Because my art school didn't have a basketball team."

  17. #17
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    Len Bias was a great collegiate basketball player that died a horrific death. A life lost because of very poor choices. As some have said, many athletes do cocaine but that surely doesn't make it right. Drugs and alcohol have done more harm to families than anyone can imagine. Do I think Len deserves to be in Maryland's HOF? Yes, I think he does but that's the Terp's choice not mine. If Len had played at Duke, I would certainly be all in for his induction to the Duke HOF. GoDuke!

  18. #18
    John Feinstein is good friends with Gary, who is quoted at length in the column. Gary wants everyone to remember that one tragic consequence of the use of cocaine by Len Bias was the adverse impact upon recruiting, which apparently must be taken into account when considering admission to the Maryland HOF.

    “But it wasn’t until I got back to Maryland that I really understood the impact he’d had on the school. There were kids who were great players who were decent students who we couldn’t get in school because Maryland was trying to prove it was recruiting a different kind of athlete...

    But I think you have to remember everything in life, not just the good things. It’s as if some people want to forget that the reason he died was because he did something wrong. That’s a fact, and there’s no getting away from that fact. I saw the results of it up close.


    http://www.washingtonpost.com/sports...d23_story.html
    Last edited by Atlanta Duke; 07-18-2014 at 10:08 AM.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by JBDuke View Post
    I'm not sure I agree with Feinstein myself, I just think he has a valid argument.
    Indeed, if we assume that any HoF should follow its declared criteria for determining induction, then the conclusion of his argument is true as well! The real debate should be about whether Maryland should change the criteria for induction. I think they should so that the fans can enjoy seeing Len Bias in there. However, inducting him without changing the criteria first seems kind of bogus.

    Quote Originally Posted by JBDuke View Post
    But do I think he deserves it? That I'm not so sure about, and that's where I quibble a bit with what you wrote above.
    I doubt that Len Bias himself cares about this right now. I also believe that he doesn't deserve favors from anyone. However, I think that the fans (who really pay for everything) do deserve to see him in there.

    Quote Originally Posted by JBDuke View Post
    You say Bias wasn't immoral
    Recreational drug use is not objectively immoral as long as you take precautions not to be a danger to others. That said, Maryland's HoF seems to demand that the inductee be of "good character". Cocaine use, while not immoral, is certainly associated with the lack of good character.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Olympic Fan View Post
    I have no opinion as to who some lame Big Ten school should or should not honor. That's their business.

    But please don't try to tell me Len Bias was some innocent victim of something a lot of people did.

    Isiah Austin was an innocent victim of something beyond his control. Bobby Hurley's pro career was wrecked by a drunk driver. That was not his fault.

    Len Bias died because he took an overdose of an illegal drug. Yeah, a lot of other people did coke and got away with it, but in my mind, that does not absolve his responsibility for his own death. There is a reason that cocaine is an illegal drug ... not only is it dangerous in itself, the use of cocaine has brought a lot of misery to this country. It's not some innocent pastime that he was engaged in.

    And FWIW, OldphiKap and I will just have to disagree on Pete Rose and Joe Jackson. Two scumbags -- one of whom bet on games that he could influence ... the other took money to throw a world series. There's not place for them in the HOF.
    I don't think anyone (certainly not me) is trying to say that Len Bias was blameless for taking risks. And obviously cocaine is dangerous (and illegal, which is somewhat beside the point, unless you think all athletes who have ever done illegal things should be stripped of athletic accolades -- which did not even seem to be John Feinstein's point).

    But 22 year olds routinely make bad judgments. You bring up Bobby Hurley, but I was actually thinking of Jason Williams when I read this article. God forbid his high speed motorcycle accident ended up being fatal, I cannot in a million years imagine someone making a heartless argument that he should be divested of his Duke honors. And frankly, I think the facts show that reckless driving is just as dangerous (if not more dangerous) than using cocaine. Bias lost his life because of a tragic mistake he made when he was young. I can't understand why anyone would want to punish him (or his family) more. And by the way, are we even having this argument if he was arrested for cocaine possession, received some type of sentence, and ended up being an All-Star for the Celtics? No, we are not. Somehow he is more blameworthy because he died.

    The other really big problem I have here is with Feinstein making judgments about people and situations he knows little about. Others have mentioned that he's not really a Maryland insider, and that's true enough, although he does seem to have relationships with guys like Gary Williams, and he's lived in the larger orbit of College Park for decades. But what does Feinstein know about what it was like to grow up being Len Bias, or to live in his cultural surroundings in Prince George County, MD in the 1980s? Cocaine was a crisis in Washington, D.C. in 1986, especially where Len Bias lived. Len's brother was shot to death in their neighborhood.

    To me, it's just unseemly and graceless for Feinstein to wag his finger, especially after all this time. And to compare this situation to Pete Rose? A grown man in his 30s or 40s at the time he was cheating baseball and undermining the integrity of the game? I express no opinion about Rose's fitness for the Baseball Hall but I can say confidently that his situation has next to nothing to do with Len Bias' tragic death.

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