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  1. #201
    i think this article is a bit misguided; at the very least i don't find a whole lot to object to in the Complete Carolina program. first, athletes get plenty of special treatment - this is not going to change how the rest of the student body views them one bit. but, more importantly, there is plenty of scholarship money out there supporting some narrow special interest. supporting students who would like to complete their degree, and who had left school in good standing to pursue an opportunity that can't/would be risky to delay (and, coincidentally, tends to generate a lot of positive publicity for the school in the interim) seems like a pretty worthy cause to me. if a duke student-athlete didn't complete a degree to pursue their dream and continued to be, or even enhanced their ability to be, a great representative for the university later in life, why wouldn't the university do what it can to get them back to complete their degree?

  2. #202
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    Quote Originally Posted by bob blue devil View Post
    i think this article is a bit misguided; at the very least i don't find a whole lot to object to in the Complete Carolina program. first, athletes get plenty of special treatment - this is not going to change how the rest of the student body views them one bit. but, more importantly, there is plenty of scholarship money out there supporting some narrow special interest. supporting students who would like to complete their degree, and who had left school in good standing to pursue an opportunity that can't/would be risky to delay (and, coincidentally, tends to generate a lot of positive publicity for the school in the interim) seems like a pretty worthy cause to me. if a duke student-athlete didn't complete a degree to pursue their dream and continued to be, or even enhanced their ability to be, a great representative for the university later in life, why wouldn't the university do what it can to get them back to complete their degree?
    So you're saying that if a 19 year old athlete makes the decision to leave school to follow an athletice dream, even if that is a fool-hardy choice (see: Joe Forte, Will Avery, etc. etc.), then they are more entitled to receive financial and academic assistance than say a non-athlete who left school to attempt to make a fortune bar tending or who felt like 19 was the perfect age to travel the world for several years? One of these students is more entitled to get help in completing their college degree?

    You would prefer Will Avery get tuition assistance over a Duke undergrad who dropped out to participate in a start-up venture but then realized, after said start-up failed (as most do), that she really should have completed her Duke degree?

    C'mon. The world doesn't revolve around sports, and the idea that the only thing that generates positive pub for Duke (or UNC for that matter) is sports success is making me ill. The fact is that Complete Carolina is simply a pandering gesture to appease the masses and give UNC apologists something to point to while the administration continues to ignore the facts. If the AfAm scandal wasn't about athletes, then why is Complete Carolina only about athletes? If non-athletes took all these sham courses, then why aren't they being invited back to complete their degrees? What about non-athletes that majored in AfAm (were there any)? Are they being invited back for a "Complete" education? For those AfAm majors who legitimately completed their degrees, what reciprocity are they being offered now that letters after their names are met with ridicule?

    Complete Carolina is a Complete Joke.

  3. #203
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    Quote Originally Posted by MulletMan View Post
    So you're saying that if a 19 year old athlete makes the decision to leave school to follow an athletice dream, even if that is a fool-hardy choice (see: Joe Forte, Will Avery, etc. etc.), then they are more entitled to receive financial and academic assistance than say a non-athlete who left school to attempt to make a fortune bar tending or who felt like 19 was the perfect age to travel the world for several years? One of these students is more entitled to get help in completing their college degree?

    You would prefer Will Avery get tuition assistance over a Duke undergrad who dropped out to participate in a start-up venture but then realized, after said start-up failed (as most do), that she really should have completed her Duke degree?

    C'mon. The world doesn't revolve around sports, and the idea that the only thing that generates positive pub for Duke (or UNC for that matter) is sports success is making me ill. The fact is that Complete Carolina is simply a pandering gesture to appease the masses and give UNC apologists something to point to while the administration continues to ignore the facts. If the AfAm scandal wasn't about athletes, then why is Complete Carolina only about athletes? If non-athletes took all these sham courses, then why aren't they being invited back to complete their degrees? What about non-athletes that majored in AfAm (were there any)? Are they being invited back for a "Complete" education? For those AfAm majors who legitimately completed their degrees, what reciprocity are they being offered now that letters after their names are met with ridicule?

    Complete Carolina is a Complete Joke.
    I think I agree. Why should an athlete who dropped out get more help to complete his/her degree than any other Duke student?

    However, if the reason to drop out was to go to the NBA, then I'm guessing that the student in question was the star of the program for a year. Plenty of post-season tickets and jerseys were sold in no small part thanks to that athlete. The Booster Program (not the University as a whole) benefited financially from the student's participation. So I think the Booster Program can pony up at least four years in scholarship money -- the University funds don't need to come into play. What happens to some of the four year academic scholarships if they choose to take a year off? Some (not all) have provisions to take a break, so why not athletic scholarships?

    That said, the Carolina Complete is a sham, IMHO. The whole, "we've been doing this all along, we're just formalizing it" is a convenient diversion to the whole mess over there.

    As far as the sham AfAm classes, I think that all students, both athletes and non-athletes who took them were offered the ability to retake them at the University's expense, though few -- well, ONE -- has taken them up on it (info here). I've seen the same data in other sources (News & Observer), but it's not coming up in a quick Google search. Anyone who hadn't graduated in 2013 and took those sham classes has remedies to either prove that they did the coursework, take a test to prove their knowledge, or take another class. Graduates are in a different situation as transcripts are frozen, but they can come back and take a similar African, African-American, and Diaspora Studies course. No grade will be given, but it will be noted on their transcript. Again, only one alumnus has inquired. In this ONE particular instance, Carolina has done the right thing (that was hard to type!).

  4. #204
    Quote Originally Posted by MulletMan View Post
    So you're saying that if a 19 year old athlete makes the decision to leave school to follow an athletice dream, even if that is a fool-hardy choice (see: Joe Forte, Will Avery, etc. etc.), then they are more entitled to receive financial and academic assistance than say a non-athlete who left school to attempt to make a fortune bar tending or who felt like 19 was the perfect age to travel the world for several years? One of these students is more entitled to get help in completing their college degree?
    That is not what I said, but I'll play along. "More entitled" (although that seems to be a bit of a misuse of "entitled" to begin with) is a fuzzy concept. Are people from sub Saharan Africa, people from the Carolinas, and scholarship, but non-revenue, athletes more deserving of scholarship money than others? Well, they get it at Duke, either way.

    Rightly or wrongly, schools do need to look out for their own interests. One of those interests is having the positive brand impact of high profile/successful alums. So, finding ways to strengthen ties with these people (e.g. helping them graduate) is a good thing for the school regardless of whether these individuals are more deserving.

    And of course, this whole line of thinking misses the fact that this is more about getting the kids you want in the door to begin with, rather than what happens in the event they leave early. UNC can now tell the parents of kids it wants to attend its school that they have a better package to offer than others.

    Quote Originally Posted by MulletMan View Post
    You would prefer Will Avery get tuition assistance over a Duke undergrad who dropped out to participate in a start-up venture but then realized, after said start-up failed (as most do), that she really should have completed her Duke degree?
    Simply put, I'd rather Duke do what is best for Duke. To your narrow example, I don't believe Avery left the school in good standing, but you seem confident otherwise - are you? Frankly, I think it would make sense to extend this idea to lots of scholarships - it would appeal most to the most ambitious students. These are the ones we should want in the Duke network. Meanwhile, I doubt it would cost the school a whole lot (although I suppose that would require a proper study).

    Quote Originally Posted by MulletMan View Post
    C'mon. The world doesn't revolve around sports, and the idea that the only thing that generates positive pub for Duke (or UNC for that matter) is sports success is making me ill.
    Your straw man skills are strong! So because sports is not the only thing to generate good publicity, we should discount that value completely? That's a pretty naive perspective. Given this is a Duke sports website, it's pretty ironic too.

    Quote Originally Posted by MulletMan View Post
    The fact is that Complete Carolina is simply a pandering gesture to appease the masses and give UNC apologists something to point to while the administration continues to ignore the facts. If the AfAm scandal wasn't about athletes, then why is Complete Carolina only about athletes? If non-athletes took all these sham courses, then why aren't they being invited back to complete their degrees? What about non-athletes that majored in AfAm (were there any)? Are they being invited back for a "Complete" education? For those AfAm majors who legitimately completed their degrees, what reciprocity are they being offered now that letters after their names are met with ridicule?

    Complete Carolina is a Complete Joke.
    Okay, this part has nothing to do with my post, thankfully. I agree Complete dUNCe is part of a PR scheme, but that doesn't make it a bad idea. Lots of good things come from self interest.
       

  5. #205
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    I guess I am in the minority. Student athletes make schools lots of money, and they are very public representatives of the school. If a school wants to give something back to the athletes in a permissible way, good for them. And given that these folks are out there representing you, you might as well have it so they can speak with subject/object agreement.

    We have had players come back and finish their degrees. Is the objection here just a question of who picks up the tab?

    And yes, athletes are already granted access to scholarships that normal students are not. It's capitalism, not an egalitarian utopia.

  6. #206
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    Feb 2007
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    Steamboat Springs, CO
    Quote Originally Posted by MulletMan View Post
    So you're saying that if a 19 year old athlete makes the decision to leave school to follow an athletice dream, even if that is a fool-hardy choice (see: Joe Forte, Will Avery, etc. etc.), then they are more entitled to receive financial and academic assistance than say a non-athlete who left school to attempt to make a fortune bar tending or who felt like 19 was the perfect age to travel the world for several years? One of these students is more entitled to get help in completing their college degree?

    You would prefer Will Avery get tuition assistance over a Duke undergrad who dropped out to participate in a start-up venture but then realized, after said start-up failed (as most do), that she really should have completed her Duke degree?

    C'mon. The world doesn't revolve around sports, and the idea that the only thing that generates positive pub for Duke (or UNC for that matter) is sports success is making me ill. The fact is that Complete Carolina is simply a pandering gesture to appease the masses and give UNC apologists something to point to while the administration continues to ignore the facts. If the AfAm scandal wasn't about athletes, then why is Complete Carolina only about athletes? If non-athletes took all these sham courses, then why aren't they being invited back to complete their degrees? What about non-athletes that majored in AfAm (were there any)? Are they being invited back for a "Complete" education? For those AfAm majors who legitimately completed their degrees, what reciprocity are they being offered now that letters after their names are met with ridicule?

    Complete Carolina is a Complete Joke.

    This reminds me of the story of two divinity students arguing about whether one can smoke while praying. (Hey, I'm in Colorado -- who knows what fashionable these days in the Divinity Schools?) They agreed to consult two professors and came back with different answers. "I am incredulous," said one, upon learning that his colleague had found out it was OK to smoke during prayers. "What specifically did you ask?" His colleague responded, "I asked if it was all right to pray while smoking."

    The Complete Carolina program was announced by the AD. Now, it turns out that the Athletic Department has a budget of $100 million or so (maybe more like $80M). It chooses to spend a small portion on getting athletes who left school to compete their studies and get a degree. Who can object to the UNC Athletic Department putting a trifle more into educating athletes?
    Sage Grouse

    ---------------------------------------
    'When I got on the bus for my first road game at Duke, I saw that every player was carrying textbooks or laptops. I coached in the SEC for 25 years, and I had never seen that before, not even once.' - David Cutcliffe to Duke alumni in Washington, DC, June 2013

  7. #207
    Your point is well taken Kap, but in your heart of hearts is UNC doing this "for the kids" or for their own self interest? While "regular" students don't make their school lots of money a large percentage leave school heavily in debt. No one seems to care about them. While I have no data to back this up I say the smart money says more non athletes give back to their school via alumni donations than athletes. IMO UNC is doing this to make themselves look good to those who view them in a more suspicious light than they once did. Some of the twisted tools who have tried in vain to keep their transgressions from the public probably view this as a good recruiting tactic as well

  8. #208
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    Quote Originally Posted by blueduke59 View Post
    Your point is well taken Kap, but in your heart of hearts is UNC doing this "for the kids" or for their own self interest? While "regular" students don't make their school lots of money a large percentage leave school heavily in debt. No one seems to care about them. While I have no data to back this up I say the smart money says more non athletes give back to their school via alumni donations than athletes. IMO UNC is doing this to make themselves look good to those who view them in a more suspicious light than they once did. Some of the twisted tools who have tried in vain to keep their transgressions from the public probably view this as a good recruiting tactic as well
    Very good post, bd59, Sporkz your way.

    Are they doing it for their own good? I am sure they are. It is still the right thing to do IMO, so glad they're doing it. Carolina can still go to Hell as far as I am concerned though -- different issue.

    Again, I respect those who feel differently.

  9. #209
    Quote Originally Posted by OldPhiKap View Post
    Very good post, bd59, Sporkz your way.

    Are they doing it for their own good? I am sure they are. It is still the right thing to do IMO, so glad they're doing it. Carolina can still go to Hell as far as I am concerned though -- different issue.

    Again, I respect those who feel differently.
    Carolina can go to hell as far as I'm concerned too but I can't respect those who feel differently.

  10. #210
    some things I'm still not sure about re UNC's "Look at us! We're doing it for the kids!" program...

    I assume room and board is offered.

    Questions: What if 500 former athletes come back for their degrees? Where would they be housed? For how long? What if they're slow learners and it takes John Belushi Delta House time to obtain a sheepskin in whatever field of endeavor they choose? Does Bluto get to stay until he finally crosses the finish line? What if some decide to take advantage of free room and board for as long as possible

    I hope UNC Athletic Dept goes broke taking care of these scholars

  11. #211
    Quote Originally Posted by blueduke59 View Post
    \What if they're slow learners and it takes John Belushi Delta House time to obtain a sheepskin in whatever field of endeavor they choose? Does Bluto get to stay until he finally crosses the finish line?
    [PJ] Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? Heck no! 'Cause when the going gets tough... ...the tough gets going! Who's with me? Let's go!

    [Runs out of room, alone... Then returns]

    [PJ] You guys are pathetic. What happened to the UNC I used to know? Where's the spirit? Where's the guts? Where's the luxury SUV rental with the $500 in Dean Dome parking tickets that can do 0-150 mph on I-85 in the blink of an NC state trooper's strobe? 'Oooh, we're afraid to go with you, PJ, we might get in trouble.' Well, just kiss LMac's $1,500 mouthguard from now on. Not me! I'm not gonna take this...

    [Ray Felton, waving a handgun] Yo, yo, listen up... PJ's right. This situation absolutely requires a really futile and stupid gesture be done on somebody's part, and we're just the guys to do it!

  12. #212

    Ad hominem

    Hardly surprising that whistleblowers are subject to intense scrutiny and personal attacks - Mary Willingham has long been subjected to the latter by UNC true believers, but it is the former which could be a mortal blow in the PR war.

    http://www.newsobserver.com/2014/08/...ml?sp=/99/103/

    While it would be preferable that a whistleblower have zero skeletons in their closet, and this is a pretty big one for a learning specialist, it actually negates zero of her specific claims about UNC's behavior. It does hurt her credibility, but to the extent that she has evidence to back her claims, this strikes me a bit like the Jose Canseco thing. He was dead-on right, but was dismissed early on and for some time afterwards because ... well, because he wasn't a choirboy himself.

    If she doesn't have corroboration for her claims (either documentary or other witnesses) then that may help get UNC off the hook. I expect she has a lot of documentation though ... maybe it'll get cited in a forum that matters.

  13. #213
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    Quote Originally Posted by cspan37421 View Post

    If she doesn't have corroboration for her claims (either documentary or other witnesses) then that may help get UNC off the hook. I expect she has a lot of documentation though ... maybe it'll get cited in a forum that matters.
    What documentation would she have that could be released publicly? Emails from the athletic department?

  14. #214
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    Feb 2008
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    New Bern, NC unless it's a home football game then I'm grilling on Devil's Alley
    You can shoot the messenger, but it doesn't do much good unless the message hasn't been delivered yet. Unfortunately for UNC and IC, her message already got to its destination.
    Q "Why do you like Duke, you didn't even go there." A "Because my art school didn't have a basketball team."

  15. #215
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    Raleigh, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by cspan37421 View Post
    Hardly surprising that whistleblowers are subject to intense scrutiny and personal attacks - Mary Willingham has long been subjected to the latter by UNC true believers, but it is the former which could be a mortal blow in the PR war.

    http://www.newsobserver.com/2014/08/...ml?sp=/99/103/

    While it would be preferable that a whistleblower have zero skeletons in their closet, and this is a pretty big one for a learning specialist, it actually negates zero of her specific claims about UNC's behavior. It does hurt her credibility, but to the extent that she has evidence to back her claims, this strikes me a bit like the Jose Canseco thing. He was dead-on right, but was dismissed early on and for some time afterwards because ... well, because he wasn't a choirboy himself.

    If she doesn't have corroboration for her claims (either documentary or other witnesses) then that may help get UNC off the hook. I expect she has a lot of documentation though ... maybe it'll get cited in a forum that matters.
    The worst thing this does is make Mary Willingham a bit of a hypocrite, but it doesn't really absolve anyone, as you mentioned.

  16. #216
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    Las Vegas, Nevada
    So UNC isn't good at vetting people they hire. Not sure how this latest Willingham story helps them.

    On a different subject, Adam Rowe tweeted an interesting factoid today: "Crazy to me that UNC hasn't gotten a basketball commitment since May 22nd. Of 2013."

  17. #217
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    Feb 2007
    Quote Originally Posted by Henderson View Post
    So UNC isn't good at vetting people they hire. Not sure how this latest Willingham story helps them.
    It lets all of UNC's current and past employees that might have been thinking of speaking out know the potential consequences of crossing the light blue line.

  18. #218
    Quote Originally Posted by Henderson View Post
    So UNC isn't good at vetting people they hire. Not sure how this latest Willingham story helps them.

    On a different subject, Adam Rowe tweeted an interesting factoid today: "Crazy to me that UNC hasn't gotten a basketball commitment since May 22nd. Of 2013."
    Maybe I should have listed "no one wants to play for them" among my list for the optimal UNC season poll...
       

  19. #219
    Quote Originally Posted by Duvall View Post
    What documentation would she have that could be released publicly? Emails from the athletic department?
    I don't know about publicly. She's embroiled in a lawsuit, right? Perhaps somethings that can't be released now can be released through that process. Perhaps some recorded conversations? In person or telephone (depending on NC law, the latter is doubtful to me). What about voice mail on UNC systems? Emails, sure. Screenshots of before-and-after grade changes? I don't know. I guess the worst thing about the ad hominem attack is that those who are most motivated to believe her charges false will comfortably do so. The alums and UNC faithful will not feel that anything happened, so in their minds, nothing need be changed. Bidness as usual.

  20. #220
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    Feb 2007
    Quote Originally Posted by Mountain_Devil_91_92_01_10 View Post
    Maybe I should have listed "no one wants to play for them" among my list for the optimal UNC season poll...
    How many players would UNC be looking to recruit this year anyway? They have a deep roster without any real NBA prospects, so it's not like there will be any real rotation openings next season.

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