Jason Kidd is kind of an idiot

[duke74]

NYC's primary sports radio station is WFAN. The guys who cover the 10AM - 1PM slot are Evan Roberts and Joe Beningo.

Roberts is as big a Nets fan as you will find among media members. When I heard about Kidd's moves, his take was the first I wanted to hear.

For those who like a little regional color and well motivated ranting, Roberts delivers a fitting take-down of Kidd:

http://newyork.cbslocal.com/audio/benigno-roberts/

(go to June 30 - Joe and Evan Show open)

These two are also begging the Nets to hire Brooklyn native Mark Jackson.

Very familar with this pair, Billy (as you might expect). I like Evan; getting tired of Joe's schtick, though - the "everyman" thing - including on Daily News Live on SNY.

[Des Esseintes]

Pierce's greatest value in my view is as a late in the clock dead scorer. He's lost a lot of that, his ability to create his shot almost at will and make it. Pierce was half the player that he was once was and showed no other game than the one he always had, only it didn't work. I have to believe that that didn't stand well with Kidd; Kidd reinvented himself numerous times to remain high-value added; I don't know that Pierce tried; if he did, he didn't succeed.

Pierce played extended stretches as a power forward for the first time in his career last season. That shift to ultra-small ball was one of the key components to turning Brooklyn's season from a laughingstock campaign to a respectable one. So I don't understand why you would say he didn't try to change or failed in the attempt. Pierce's metamorphosis was critical to the success Brooklyn did find last season. Which, I grant you, is totally weird, what with him having not grown up in a soccer culture and all.

[greybeard]

Pierce played extended stretches as a power forward for the first time in his career last season. That shift to ultra-small ball was one of the key components to turning Brooklyn's season from a laughingstock campaign to a respectable one. So I don't understand why you would say he didn't try to change or failed in the attempt. Pierce's metamorphosis was critical to the success Brooklyn did find last season. Which, I grant you, is totally weird, what with him having not grown up in a soccer culture and all.

The Nets played ugly, as many NBA teams do. Pierce could not change that, or his need to create first and foremost for himself. I think that Kidd did not want to coach that team as constituted precisely because it comprises star players who all had the same create-for-myself and thus for the team approach. Did Kidd do his best to create wins with what he had, and did Pierce do what he could to make that happen. Sure. Was Pierce an asset that could play the game that Kidd embraces? I think pretty clearly not, at least on a team filed with players who perform the same role that he does, whatever their or his "position." Where you stand with that I do not know.

The league is filed with international players and teams that have won Championships, the Heat excepted, have in the main been lead and infused with them. The most attractive offenses the league has produced have come from teams that have played a soccer-oriented style infused with players steeped in that game. Even Jordan's Bulls played Phil's Triangle, an offense based upon elemental soccer principles that the international studded Spurs took to an entirely new, soccer style level. Live with it or be left blind. The American game is not American any longer, except when it comes to bling and parallel play, that consists of boring pick and rolls and sparkling dunks. Yummy.

[Des Esseintes]

If only Coney Island had a soccer stadium. We could have perfected basketball decades ago.

[lotusland]

If only Coney Island had a soccer stadium. We could have perfected basketball decades ago.

Couldn't they play soccer at the competitive eating stadium?

[greybeard]

If only Coney Island had a soccer stadium. We could have perfected basketball decades ago.

Keep playing with a peach basket. Speaking of Coney Island, holy Hot Dogs, Robin, seems your Heat are interested in Lance Stephenson. How could that be, I mean it was oh so unseemly that he dared blow in the King's ear. Or, maybe the interest is just in case, in which case our sides on this Coney Island thing might just wind up being reversed. Now, wouldn't that be something.

Just a coincidence that all those Spur internationals ended up kicking the Heat all over the court. Paris sure is the hotbed of good old American style basketball and Parker and Diaw are oh so good at throwing it down. Parker's quick feet and startling deliveries don't remind you more of Messi than anybody you've seen on a basketball court. Okay, I got it. Miami has South Beach.

[greybeard]

Couldn't they play soccer at the competitive eating stadium?

I suppose by you baseball still is an American game, America has always been and always will be the greatest country on earth and every other country is not, and Henry Ford invented cars so Americans buy Japanese and German only by mistake. Whatever floats your boat.

That 20th pick, the 6'9" Brazilian by Toronto, look out. I hear he can kick it. They said the next Kevin Durant; my guess, Magic.

[Duvall]

The American game is not American any longer, except when it comes to bling...

Okay.

[tommy]

That 20th pick, the 6'9" Brazilian by Toronto, look out. I hear he can kick it. They said the next Kevin Durant; my guess, Magic.

Wasn't it you who last year around this time, and before, was singing the praises of Otto Porter, saying he was such a special player, special talent, and would be a surefire star in the NBA? He was a huge bust as a rookie, even after recovering from his injury. Oh, I know, according to you nobody really is ever recovered from an injury, but still -- he couldn't crack the Wizards rotation as the #3 pick in the draft.

[tommy]

The Nets played ugly, as many NBA teams do. Pierce could not change that, or his need to create first and foremost for himself. I think that Kidd did not want to coach that team as constituted precisely because it comprises star players who all had the same create-for-myself and thus for the team approach. Did Kidd do his best to create wins with what he had, and did Pierce do what he could to make that happen. Sure. Was Pierce an asset that could play the game that Kidd embraces? I think pretty clearly not, at least on a team filed with players who perform the same role that he does, whatever their or his "position." Where you stand with that I do not know.

The league is filed with international players and teams that have won Championships, the Heat excepted, have in the main been lead and infused with them. The most attractive offenses the league has produced have come from teams that have played a soccer-oriented style infused with players steeped in that game. Even Jordan's Bulls played Phil's Triangle, an offense based upon elemental soccer principles that the international studded Spurs took to an entirely new, soccer style level. Live with it or be left blind. The American game is not American any longer, except when it comes to bling and parallel play, that consists of boring pick and rolls and sparkling dunks. Yummy.

I would be interested to hear you describe with specificity what you mean when you say you see a basketball team playing a "soccer-oriented style" or a basketball offense "based upon elemental soccer principles." Seriously. I saw the Spurs play beautiful offensive basketball characterized by unselfish play, excellent spacing, making the extra pass, the quick recognition of mismatches, and then burying a lot of shots. What about any of that is attributable to, or derivative of, any soccer training that any of their players or coaches had? All basketball teams seek to space the floor properly; all coaches implore their players to play unselfishly and to make the extra pass. The Spurs were very good at those things, but I'm not understanding what relationship any of it has to soccer or more specifically, soccer training, when the huge majority of players and coaches who have not had soccer training also value and execute those skills.

Spacing was and is the key to Phil Jackson's triangle offense (it's actually Tex Winter's offense) but I am unaware of any connection Tex Winter had with the game of soccer or any evidence that his design of his offense was inspired by anything soccer-related. Can you enlighten me on that?

Also, if you take the Spurs out of the mix, and also take Miami out as you recognize they don't typify that type of European-style game you are talking about, then the only other champions of the last 10 years are Dallas in 2011 and Boston in 2008. Boston had no foreign players in its rotation, and Dallas had only Dirk as a starter and JJ Barea as a rotation guy off the bench.

[Des Esseintes]

Wasn't it you who last year around this time, and before, was singing the praises of Otto Porter, saying he was such a special player, special talent, and would be a surefire star in the NBA? He was a huge bust as a rookie, even after recovering from his injury. Oh, I know, according to you nobody really is ever recovered from an injury, but still -- he couldn't crack the Wizards rotation as the #3 pick in the draft.

I think we all know that no Georgetown player has ever failed. He has only been betrayed. Paul George destroyed Roy Hibbert, for instance. It wasn't in any way cowardice or weak will on the part of Hibbert. So who on the Wizards committed the sin against Otto? Couldn't be Nene. He's from a soccer nation, where men care for one another and eschew bling and dunking. Same with Gortat and Kevin Seraphim. If I had to guess who ruined Otto Porter's rookie season, it's gotta be John Wall. The dribble-drive offense is fascist, amiright?

[theAlaskanBear]

Can we keep this thread on topic related to Jason Kidd and/or Bucks? Or merge it into an NBA offseason thread? We don't need the same arguments being hashed out in 4 different threads.

[greybeard]

I would be interested to hear you describe with specificity what you mean when you say you see a basketball team playing a "soccer-oriented style" or a basketball offense "based upon elemental soccer principles." Seriously. I saw the Spurs play beautiful offensive basketball characterized by unselfish play, excellent spacing, making the extra pass, the quick recognition of mismatches, and then burying a lot of shots. What about any of that is attributable to, or derivative of, any soccer training that any of their players or coaches had? All basketball teams seek to space the floor properly; all coaches implore their players to play unselfishly and to make the extra pass. The Spurs were very good at those things, but I'm not understanding what relationship any of it has to soccer or more specifically, soccer training, when the huge majority of players and coaches who have not had soccer training also value and execute those skills.

Spacing was and is the key to Phil Jackson's triangle offense (it's actually Tex Winter's offense) but I am unaware of any connection Tex Winter had with the game of soccer or any evidence that his design of his offense was inspired by anything soccer-related. Can you enlighten me on that?

Also, if you take the Spurs out of the mix, and also take Miami out as you recognize they don't typify that type of European-style game you are talking about, then the only other champions of the last 10 years are Dallas in 2011 and Boston in 2008. Boston had no foreign players in its rotation, and Dallas had only Dirk as a starter and JJ Barea as a rotation guy off the bench.

This is a dead horse. I've explained myself quite well. You think that the Heat were brought to their knees, looked completely lost, because the Spurs had good spacing and moved the ball well, just like other basketball teams, fine.

The NY Times Article I linked has Tex Winter saying that he came up with the Triangle offense on his own, but understands that there are similarities with how the game of soccer is played. http://www.topdrawersoccer.com/the91...t-love-soccer/

[lotusland]

I suppose by you baseball still is an American game, America has always been and always will be the greatest country on earth and every other country is not, and Henry Ford invented cars so Americans buy Japanese and German only by mistake. Whatever floats your boat.

That 20th pick, the 6'9" Brazilian by Toronto, look out. I hear he can kick it. They said the next Kevin Durant; my guess, Magic.

Pretty sure you didn't mean to respond to my post. I you did I have no idea what you're talking about. I just made a wise crack about competitive eating on Coney Island. I haven't kept up with all the previous posts which apparently relate soccer to the NBA.

[Henderson]

Can we keep this thread on topic related to Jason Kidd and/or Bucks? Or merge it into an NBA offseason thread? We don't need the same arguments being hashed out in 4 different threads.

Good call. So what is a Jason Kidd offense? What's his philosophy? I haven't been able to tell. He seems kind of like Mark Jackson. It's hard to see from a fan standpoint that there is anything other than, "Put good guys out there." I'm sure there is more than that; it's just hard to see.

Unlike the triangle offense, which has an internal logic. Is there a soccer influence? I wouldn't assume so, as I think Greybeard has suggested. I remember a debate I had with a colleague some years ago regarding the American federalist system. She argued that the Iroquois had a federation and that, therefore, the US delegates to the constitutional convention must have "stolen without attribution" the Iroquois federalist system. I argued that the concept of federalism isn't so complicated that people could only come up with the idea by borrowing it, and the Iroquois weren't the first. Great simple ideas can have multiple independent developers. Same thing with the triangle offense in basketball. I'll bet there was something like a triangle offense in ancient games.

[sagegrouse]

Good call. So what is a Jason Kidd offense? What's his philosophy? I haven't been able to tell. He seems kind of like Mark Jackson. It's hard to see from a fan standpoint that there is anything other than, "Put good guys out there." I'm sure there is more than that; it's just hard to see.

Unlike the triangle offense, which has an internal logic. Is there a soccer influence? I wouldn't assume so, as I think Greybeard has suggested. I remember a debate I had with a colleague some years ago regarding the American federalist system. She argued that the Iroquois had a federation and that, therefore, the US delegates to the constitutional convention must have "stolen without attribution" the Iroquois federalist system. I argued that the concept of federalism isn't so complicated that people could only come up with the idea by borrowing it, and the Iroquois weren't the first. Great simple ideas can have multiple independent developers. Same thing with the triangle offense in basketball. I'll bet there was something like a triangle offense in ancient games.

Having just returned from the Roman amphitheater in Merida, Spain, I can testify that groups of gladiators would frequently take on multiple animals at once -- boars or lions or such -- and I believe they used a triangle technique to separate individual beasts to be subdued. This kind of gladiator may have been a Bestiarius.

[greybeard]

Good call. So what is a Jason Kidd offense? What's his philosophy? I haven't been able to tell. He seems kind of like Mark Jackson. It's hard to see from a fan standpoint that there is anything other than, "Put good guys out there." I'm sure there is more than that; it's just hard to see.

Unlike the triangle offense, which has an internal logic. Is there a soccer influence? I wouldn't assume so, as I think Greybeard has suggested. I remember a debate I had with a colleague some years ago regarding the American federalist system. She argued that the Iroquois had a federation and that, therefore, the US delegates to the constitutional convention must have "stolen without attribution" the Iroquois federalist system. I argued that the concept of federalism isn't so complicated that people could only come up with the idea by borrowing it, and the Iroquois weren't the first. Great simple ideas can have multiple independent developers. Same thing with the triangle offense in basketball. I'll bet there was something like a triangle offense in ancient games.

ABSOLUTELY!!!! Did not mean to imply otherwise.

[theAlaskanBear]

Good call. So what is a Jason Kidd offense? What's his philosophy? I haven't been able to tell. He seems kind of like Mark Jackson. It's hard to see from a fan standpoint that there is anything other than, "Put good guys out there." I'm sure there is more than that; it's just hard to see.

Unlike the triangle offense, which has an internal logic. Is there a soccer influence? I wouldn't assume so, as I think Greybeard has suggested. I remember a debate I had with a colleague some years ago regarding the American federalist system. She argued that the Iroquois had a federation and that, therefore, the US delegates to the constitutional convention must have "stolen without attribution" the Iroquois federalist system. I argued that the concept of federalism isn't so complicated that people could only come up with the idea by borrowing it, and the Iroquois weren't the first. Great simple ideas can have multiple independent developers. Same thing with the triangle offense in basketball. I'll bet there was something like a triangle offense in ancient games.

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[greybeard]

Wasn't it you who last year around this time, and before, was singing the praises of Otto Porter, saying he was such a special player, special talent, and would be a surefire star in the NBA? He was a huge bust as a rookie, even after recovering from his injury. Oh, I know, according to you nobody really is ever recovered from an injury, but still -- he couldn't crack the Wizards rotation as the #3 pick in the draft.

Please provide me with that post. I thought Porter a terrific college player. I also thought the Wizards were nuts.

[Henderson]

Please provide me with that post. I thought Porter a terrific college player. I also thought the Wizards were nuts.

I do believe Otto Porter was the #1 selection in last year's DBR Mock Draft. IIRC it was AlaskanBear who made that choice? Easy to look up, but I'm lazy.