Hate the artist, hate the art?

[Olympic Fan]

OF, I always had a problem with John Wayne--the other end of the political spectrum from Jane Fonda, but I couldn't stand his politics and therefore didn't want to see his movies. I eventually got over that; I'm an old movie buff and I have a number of dvd's of his work, and i enjoy it. Not sure if my change of heart is indicative of some sort of maturing on my part (unlikely), or if it's because he's been dead for so long.

Actually, I agree about Wayne ... it's not just the politics, but the phoniness of the image. John Wayne was the ultimate chickenhawk -- a blustering patriot who twisted himself into knots to avoid service in WWII (to the disgust of his friend and mentor, director John Ford). Wayne portrayed heroes, but was anything but in real life -- not just avoiding service but in the great blacklist debate after the war, he was amazing wishy-washy until the blacklist side won ... then he became the loudest, most obnoxious anti-communist in Hollywood. A typical bully.

It's funny, but Mike Royko, the great columnist for the Chicago papers (he worked on all three major dailys in his career) wrote about this very issue ... his disgust for Wayne's pro-Vietnam stance and his dislike for a phony hero. But he admitted that watching True Grit, when Wayne puts the reins in his teeth and charges across the field against Ned Pepper and his two sidekicks, he was standing in his seat, jumping up and down.

I admit that despite my distain for Wayne the man, I too have DVDs of many of his movies (I'm a huge John Ford fan and have all his films -- many starring Wayne).

As for Jane Fonda ... that was my father's hangup, not mine. Although I shared his disgust at her actions. Believe me, I had not problem with somebody protesting the war (I was twice arrested and once teargassed myself in that cause), but allowing herself to be photographed on a North Vietnam anti-aircraft weapon -- used to shoot down American planes and pilots -- that's beyond the pale. I am glad that a more mature Fonda has expressed regrets for her actions. I wish my Dad were still alive to see how he would react to that admission.

[bjornolf]

Did she apologize for spitting on a POW?

[Duvall]

Did she apologize for spitting on a POW?

Do people normally apologize for urban legends?

[OldPhiKap]

Do people normally apologize for urban legends?

I personally apologize for releasing baby alligators into the New York City sewer system years ago, and also for inventing the "Rick Roll"

My bad

[Edouble]

As for someone like Woody Allen -- I'll do my best to avoid anything related to him until he is dead. I don't understand why more people aren't concerned about the allegations against him.

Because this is so well thought out, well written, and convincing:

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/02/09/op...-out.html?_r=0

I mean, my God, the person doing the allegation isn't sure if her child is Woody Allen's or Frank Sinatra's. Mia Farrow has always looked worse than Woody to me.

[Duvall]

Mia Farrow has always looked worse than Woody to me.

Wait, what?

[Edouble]

Wait, what?

Your question is open ended, so I'm not sure what you're asking.

What I was getting at though is that experts at Yale said that Woody Allen is not a child molester. It has always been pretty clear that a vindictive Mia Farrow coached her child. The evidence all points pretty strongly to Woody's innocence, hence his actual innocence.

Maybe you are asking about something else though.

[cspan37421]

As for someone like Woody Allen ... I don't understand why more people aren't concerned about the allegations against him.

I can't speak for others, but the Duke Lacrosse Rape Hoax reminded me of an important truth - that allegations are not proof. One can say, "If that's true, it certainly would be terrible." But one should follow up with, "But is it true?"

For many people, the lack of concern you cite results from proportioning their belief to the evidence offered.

[Blue in the Face]

I mean, my God, [Mia] isn't sure if her child is Woody Allen's or Frank Sinatra's.

I think anyone who's ever seen a picture of him is pretty sure whose child he is.

[lotusland]

I'm having a hard time coming up with an artist whose art I would otherwise appreciate except for the artist. I didn't care for Dennis Miller selling Iraq War Kool-aid but I never though he was very funny anyway. Furthermore he's probably the worst football announcer of all time. He's occasionally funny but never as clever as he seem to think he is. Even so I don't automatically turn the channel or go out of my way to avoid him. Artists in general seem to be a particularly temperamental and flawed bunch anyway.

If my carriage tour guide in Beaufort, SC is to be believed, Babs called the Marine Air Base during the filming of Prince of Tides and demanded that they stop flying over the house where she was staying so early in the morning. I'm not a very big Streisand fan either but that sounds more like the kind of Diva behavior that I would expect more than something that would cause me to avoid her work. In other words I don't know if it's true but I hope it is. I also hope the part about more and earlier flights being ordered as a result is true.

[theAlaskanBear]

The Dutch.

For me its the narcissism that turns me off. My examples are Adam Sandler, Ben Stiller, and Jim Carey. They expect big money for just being them, regardless of the caca they try to shovel. Of course, they each tried to conquer serious roles, and their audiences were not supportive. Maybe the audience is just getting what it deserves - tired re-run clichés that stopped being funny to many of us long ago.

I agree with you, let me add Vince Vaughn to this list. All of these actors has good movies and examples of good acting, but almost all their movies are microwaved shtick, playing off of the same character-types each movie. I call it "Will Ferrell disease" but he has the charisma to almost pull it off.

[cato]

Your question is open ended, so I'm not sure what you're asking.

What I was getting at though is that experts at Yale said that Woody Allen is not a child molester. It has always been pretty clear that a vindictive Mia Farrow coached her child. The evidence all points pretty strongly to Woody's innocence, hence his actual innocence.

Maybe you are asking about something else though.

A New York court disagreed. "There is no credible evidence to support Mr. Allen's contention that Ms. Farrow coached Dylan or that Ms. Farrow acted upon a desire for revenge against him for seducing Soon-Yi." http://www.vanityfair.com/dam/2014/0...stody-suit.pdf.

Also take a look at page 23 and 24, where the court criticises the Yale-New Haven report, including their "finthat that there was no abuse the the supporting data was inconclusive".

Another quote from the court: "I agree with Dr. Herm and Dr. Brodzinsky that we will probably never know what occurred on August 4, 1992. The credible testimony of Ms. Farrow, Dr. Coates, Dr. Leventhal and Mr. Allen does, however, prove that Mr. Allen's behavior must toward Dylan was grossly inappropriate and that measures must be taken to protect her."

At any rate, it is not just the allegations about child molestation. The thing with his daugher-wife is enough to tell me that Allen is a person who would be best ignored by society, instead of celebrated.

I find it curious that so many people are so forgiving of his admitted conduct, but to each their own.

[cato]

I can't speak for others, but the Duke Lacrosse Rape Hoax reminded me of an important truth - that allegations are not proof. One can say, "If that's true, it certainly would be terrible." But one should follow up with, "But is it true?"

For many people, the lack of concern you cite results from proportioning their belief to the evidence offered.

Are you familiar with the evidence offered? For just a taste, take a look at the court document linked above, and tell me there is no cause for concern.

[snowdenscold]

I'm surprised that after 2 pages, no one has brought up Roman Polanski.

[A-Tex Devil]

Really? 'cause Les Grossman was my biggest problem with an otherwise pretty great movie. Tropic Thunder is not a subtle movie, but charming non the less, and well acted. Les Grossman came off as heavy-handed, and so fake the point it was annoying. All I could think, Tom Cruise trying to be funny in a fat suit. And I don't particularly hate Tom Cruise either, I like most of his acting.

A shallow dive into the stories about Harvey Weinstein may change your mind on how fake the Les Grossman character was.

[nmduke2001]

I think Michael Jackson is the best example of this issue. I would guess that the majority of people believe that Michael Jackson, at the very least, had inappropriate relationships with children*. However, must people looked past his “issues” and continued to support his career. When MJ died, radio stations literally played his catalog over and over again for several days. People openly wept when they heard the news of his death. Had MJ been a politician instead of an international superstar entertainer, I don’t think history would have treated him so well.

*Maybe I'm off base with this assumption.

[lotusland]

I think Michael Jackson is the best example of this issue. I would guess that the majority of people believe that Michael Jackson, at the very least, had inappropriate relationships with children*. However, must people looked past his “issues” and continued to support his career. When MJ died, radio stations literally played his catalog over and over again for several days. People openly wept when they heard the news of his death. Had MJ been a politician instead of an international superstar entertainer, I don’t think history would have treated him so well.

*Maybe I'm off base with this assumption.

Inappropriate in that he had a bunch of kids living with him at the ranch and sleeping in his bed. For an adult that's not wise or appropriate. Part of me thinks he may have just been a child himself and meant them no harm. On the other hand I wouldn't have left my kids with him. I saw some blurbs from a tell-all book by his body guards on Yahoo today regarding how poorly he managed his money. I wonder if the child molestation issue is addressed. If the worst were known to be true I think his image would suffer greatly. On the other hand Pete Townsend was involved in very questionable child porn and I don't think I would ever stop listening to The Who.

[OldPhiKap]

I'm surprised that after 2 pages, no one has brought up Roman Polanski.

Another good example.

I see a difference between liking an artistic expression (film, music, painting, etc.) and the personal sins of the producer of that art. Chinatown is a great movie, period. Annie Hall is a great movie, period. And although I do not like Michael Jackson's music, Thriller was a groundbreaking album and video. I love Keith Richards' guitar work and song writing but would not really want to hang with the guy. My politics are different than both Clint Eastwood and Tim Robbins, but I like their movies. Phil Spector's Wall of Sound is still a gold standard, despite a subsequent murder conviction years after the fact.

And for many artists, it's the demons that drive them to the art. See, e.g. Vinny Van Gogh or Ernie Hemmingway.

If folks choose not to give an artist money because of personal taste, so be it. But art has an intrinsic quality; art IS intrinsic quality.

Calling Phaedrus.

[DukieInKansas]

I confess to avoiding Tom Cruise movies - but not because of his jumping on the couch and Scientology ties. I haven't forgiven him for Vanilla Sky. I think it is the only time I've every wanted a character to jump off a building. I will still watch Risky Business = but mainly because my PE teacher from Seoul Foreign School is in it than because Tom Cruise is in it.

[lotusland]

Another good example.

I see a difference between liking an artistic expression (film, music, painting, etc.) and the personal sins of the producer of that art. Chinatown is a great movie, period. Annie Hall is a great movie, period. And although I do not like Michael Jackson's music, Thriller was a groundbreaking album and video. I love Keith Richards' guitar work and song writing but would not really want to hang with the guy. My politics are different than both Clint Eastwood and Tim Robbins, but I like their movies. Phil Spector's Wall of Sound is still a gold standard, despite a subsequent murder conviction years after the fact.

And for many artists, it's the demons that drive them to the art. See, e.g. Vinny Van Gogh or Ernie Hemmingway.

If folks choose not to give an artist money because of personal taste, so be it. But art has an intrinsic quality; art IS intrinsic quality.

Calling Phaedrus.

I think there may be something about artists that make them more susceptible to addiction. For one thing they work odd hours largely unsupervised. Stage performers always have the after-party and musicians need not even wait until after he show to imbibe so there's easy access and a culture to also encourage it. With that said I don't know of any artist in recovery that believes their art suffers as a result of sobriety. Steve Earle says that he's much more productive now that he's clean and sober at least partially because the time required to acquire enough heroin to feed his addiction on a daily basis precluded him from writing much. F. Scott Fitzgerald regretted sorrowfully that Tender is the Night, his follow up novel to The Great Gatsby, suffered because he could not stay sober while writing it.