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Thread: Duke and Sex

  1. #1

    Duke and Sex

    Why is it that there seems to be so many national stories about Duke and sex? We had the lacrosse case, Karen Owen, the porn star and now
    this

    http://blogs.wsj.com/law/2014/06/02/...al-misconduct/

    It does seem like sexual misconduct on college campuses is a big issue, and not just at Duke.


    SoCal

  2. #2
    This is a delicate topic that is probably better left alone but...Date rape is almost by definition a situation that is one person's word against the other's. Regardless of how frequent or rare it is for a "victim" to falsely accuse, we know that it does happen as in the Duke LAX case. So you have a situation where the accuser willingly goes home with the accused and is admittedly very drunk. Couple that with the reality that our justice system weighted toward protecting the accused - i.e. we would rather a guilty person go free than an innocent person be convicted - so it's almost impossible to prove who's story is more accurate beyond a reasonable doubt. It seems like Duke would learn not to pick a side especially when the police don't choose to press charges. Nobody deserves to be raped but the reality is that she said he did, he said he didn't and no one else was there,

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by SoCalDukeFan View Post
    Why is it that there seems to be so many national stories about Duke and sex? We had the lacrosse case, Karen Owen, the porn star and now
    this

    http://blogs.wsj.com/law/2014/06/02/...al-misconduct/

    It does seem like sexual misconduct on college campuses is a big issue, and not just at Duke.


    SoCal
    PPB material prohibition for sure. I will say that Duke appears to have not learned lessons from the lacrosse mess. Guilty until proven innocent appears to still be the standard at Duke. Not a big surprise for those of us familiar with Larry Moneta's tenure at Penn. That he holds a position of responsibility at Duke speaks volumes about the university's approach to due process.

    http://www.phillymag.com/articles/pe...dent-20-years/

    Controversy at Duke in the media is a consequence of 2006. A recent book by a Duke alum. on the subject has brought it back to the forefront. Sad indeed.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by lotusland View Post
    This is a delicate topic that is probably better left alone but...Date rape is almost by definition a situation that is one person's word against the other's. Regardless of how frequent or rare it is for a "victim" to falsely accuse, we know that it does happen as in the Duke LAX case. So you have a situation where the accuser willingly goes home with the accused and is admittedly very drunk. Couple that with the reality that our justice system weighted toward protecting the accused - i.e. we would rather a guilty person go free than an innocent person be convicted - so it's almost impossible to prove who's story is more accurate beyond a reasonable doubt. It seems like Duke would learn not to pick a side especially when the police don't choose to press charges. Nobody deserves to be raped but the reality is that she said he did, he said he didn't and no one else was there,
    This is, of course, not a criminal proceeding.

  5. #5

    Multiple Catch 22s - maybe it's a Catch 44

    The situation is touchy, and it goes beyond just the Lax case. The Twitter age has made instant decisions the name of the game. Meanwhile, we continue to allow zero-tolerance situations to spin out of control. Down the road, UNC acted in a more even-handed way about 18 months ago, and they ended up on the Federal watch list because one young woman didn't like the result of the investigation into her incident. All it takes is one complaint that the case wasn't handled right, and you're in trouble, whether the complaint has merit or not.

    The worst part of this case wasn't the decision, itself, but that it seemed to be made without regard to Duke's own processes for investigations and reviews.

  6. #6
    Not sure if this matters but I would suggest that the news story relates not to public policy, but private policy - that is, policy at Duke University.

    I am quite troubled by the allegation that "... Duke discouraged him from seeking legal advice" - that sounds like the Lacrosse case all over again, and IF true, such a stand is a serious matter, to the point that you have to wonder if the administration/student relationship should be better seen is adversarial from day one.

    And this: " ... and expelled him under an unpublished policy" is despicable, IF true.

    It should be interesting to see how it plays out. It may be that Duke's decision (attempt?) to expel does not depend on any unpublished policy, or portions of a policy that are unpublished. If the standard for consent is not being drunk to the point of incapacitation, then establishing the latter would be sufficient, assuming other facts are agreed upon/conceded. But it sounds like the incapacitation part is disputed - perhaps by those witnesses the student (plaintiff) alleges he was not permitted to call.

    Oh what a fine mess. Has there been a net benefit for Duke to driving drunkenness off campus (or rather, trying to)?

  7. #7
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    As long as no one puts cameras in the stacks of Perkins, it'll all be okay . . . .

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldPhiKap View Post
    As long as no one puts cameras in the stacks of Perkins, it'll all be okay . . . .
    Based on the construction plan for Perkins that I observed at graduation weekend, I think you're out of luck. And the Great Hall was a big hole in the ground.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by cf-62 View Post
    Down the road, UNC acted in a more even-handed way about 18 months ago, and they ended up on the Federal watch list because one young woman didn't like the result of the investigation into her incident.
    That's a very...charitable reading of events at UNC. Either way, I would rather have Duke's problem than theirs.

  10. #10
    A university's punishment based on some perceived digression from the student code of conduct does not equal, rely on, or have the same burden of proof as a criminal investigation and conviction. Whether it should or not is certainly open to debate, and I'm not saying I side one way. But this situation is NOT even close to unique at Duke and happens everywhere. Universities' tend to err on the side of if an allegation is made that it's likely true (whether it be cheating on a test, public drunkenness, etc.). They do not conduct an investigation and trial in the same manner as our criminal justice system, and often dole out punishments for things that never make it to the public courts.

    For a high profile case, just look at Maryland basketball transfer Dez Wells who was expelled from Xavier for a rape allegation that Wells says was false (Xavier and Wells later settled). Again, I'm not suggesting that there should be such a disconnect between the two (university and criminal proceedings); just that such disconnect exists everywhere. It's a tough situation for a university to be in. When an alleged victim later publicly says that the university did nothing to punish a rapist (like at UNC), that also seems like an imperfect policy and is certainly bad for PR. These he said, she said cases are tough.

  11. #11
    I was going to write something on this. But it just got too long and too inclusive. The bottom line is that Duke continues to get in the news for this type of thing because they keep doing stupid things. When it comes to disciplinary measures, they act as if they are above the law, and they are not. When they do these things, they get sued, and they settle, aka lose. I love Duke athletics but certain aspects of the Duke administration, I don't exactly pine for. I thought Duke should have cleaned house after 06.
    Whatever the hell "it" is, Jabari found it.

    -Roy "Ole Huck" Williams

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Bluedog View Post
    A university's punishment based on some perceived digression from the student code of conduct does not equal, rely on, or have the same burden of proof as a criminal investigation and conviction. Whether it should or not is certainly open to debate, and I'm not saying I side one way. But this situation is NOT even close to unique at Duke and happens everywhere. Universities' tend to err on the side of if an allegation is made that it's likely true (whether it be cheating on a test, public drunkenness, etc.). They do not conduct an investigation and trial in the same manner as our criminal justice system, and often dole out punishments for things that never make it to the public courts.

    For a high profile case, just look at Maryland basketball transfer Dez Wells who was expelled from Xavier for a rape allegation that Wells says was false (Xavier and Wells later settled). Again, I'm not suggesting that there should be such a disconnect between the two (university and criminal proceedings); just that such disconnect exists everywhere. It's a tough situation for a university to be in. When an alleged victim later publicly says that the university did nothing to punish a rapist (like at UNC), that also seems like an imperfect policy and is certainly bad for PR. These he said, she said cases are tough.
    Yes these cases are extremely tough because it's so difficult to know with any degree of confidence what really happened. But if you don't know what happened with any degree of confidence why would you expel someone just weeks from graduation who's "damages" are so severe? I wouldn't think erring on the side of "if an allegation is made" it's probably true is not very fair or prudent.

  13. #13
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    Briefly: I'd recommend reading this story The Chronicle in March 2005. It discusses date rape and Duke.

    It is also worth noting that the Duke lacrosse imbroglio was not the first time false rape allegations shook up Duke's campus in the 2000s. Two accusations by the same student against no individual or individuals in particular--one in the winter of 2002, and one in the fall of 2004--were retracted in November 2004. Though no individuals were specifically accused, the fabricated accusations (and the revelation that they were fabricated) took their toll on many.

    Dean Moneta said it best, as quoted in the article immediately above: “The fact that we’ve had a community for a few years now on edge is damaging because it fuels fears,” Moneta said. “Even retracting the allegation may not necessarily retract the fear.”

    Full disclosure: I was a very close friend of the person who fabricated the accusations.

  14. #14
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    The main problem with campus date rape is the divide between the universities' obligations under federal law to protect and prevent sexual assaults on campus (leading to internal discipline) and the fact that sexual assault is actually a state crime, reportable to and investigated by the local police.

    There are two perceptions which are in conflict. The university does not want the assault reported federally because it impacts its crime rate, or may result in an unwanted federal oversight or possible loss of funds. It also knows it is not very good at dealing with such issues. (Much of this is due to regs from the Dept. of Ed, not exactly an agency with expertise). Nevertheless, the victim deserves justice of one sort or another--a university discipline imposed on the perpetrator--expulsion or suspension. At this point, neither the victim, if she has not been otherwise injured, nor the perpetrator has a particular desire to go outside the university system and be exposed to the criminal aspects. Yet, this leaves the parties in a structure which is ill-equipped to find the truth. In most date-rape cases, it is simply one person's word against the other. No school or student disciplinary system I am aware of (and I was in one briefly) is competent to uncover the truth. There is never any forensic evidence available to assist it. So crediting one party's word over another is too problematical to warrant confidence in the forum's decision.

    Yet, reporting the incident to the police, while driving the matter to a competent agency, may not be what anyone wants. The university, as a matter of policy, wants the incident to disappear. That won't happen unless the complaint is found to be without merit from the outset. If it proceeds past the preliminary stages, then it won't disappear no matter what the end result might to turn out to be. Second, the individual parties may not want to be there. Certainly the perpetrator would prefer not to be investigated or prosecuted, probably under the impression he's done no wrong. But the victim may not want that either--angry that she's a victim, but not so angry that she wants a former friend to go to jail.

    So in date rape there is no safety island between an incompetent student judiciary system and an overly punitive criminal system. Either one is likely to go badly.

    In some respects the federal rules and the state criminal laws are contraposed. That should be corrected.

    I certainly do not want to understate the seriousness of the issue--"no" should mean "no" and the event should halt when the word is uttered, but if there is no other harm,* the question ought to be what should anyone do. Ignore it? Put it into the student system; modify the criminal system so the victim gets reasonable redress of her complaint while the perpetrator gets a corrective wrist slap; or prosecute the SOB and send him to jail for 5 years? In the current system, both the first and last options are simultaneously available. Should that even be the case?

    ------

    * Questions of consent in date rape are very difficult to assess. Ordinary date rape resulting from sober fooling around or occurring under the mild influence of liquor is quite different from the chemically induced lack of consent (too drunk to consent, being drugged). "No" should be honored in the first two, but not even be an issue in the latter; those are clearly criminal. And what about the level of force used, even when both are reasonably sober? Some women, not consenting, will still capitulate, afraid of further harm. Again, difficult for any investigating body to assess. Should that body be the student system or the county? Can any university really judge that accurately? Xavier could not do so in the Wells case. Why should Duke or any other university be capable of it? Can any university do so under current policies?

  15. #15
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    The university seems to have an obligation to work towards having a safe campus. Some of this involves increased education as to what constitutes consensual (which would help average-expectable 20 year olds avoid legitimate differences of opinion) but also involves expelling students whose behavior makes it unsafe for women. In a recent Columbia case, multiple undergraduates came to the administration about the same guy (an athlete, by the way), They later found out that 6 women had complaints about him. He's still in school (though he took last semester off). Columbia has told the women there was no evidence and so dismissed all of the complaints. I'm not sure the answer. Perhaps this guy would sue Columbia if he were expelled. Others (though not I) would wonder whether these women colluded to frame someone. As has been pointed out, universities are unprepared to do this sort of investigation. But since they are, for better or worse, acting in loco parentis, it seems to me that the standard for expulsion is lower than imprisonment--akin to how a handful of failed exams can get you expelled but won't send you to prison. And from reading the newspaper, it seems these women shouldn't have to go to classes with their attacker.

  16. #16
    George Will echoing the points noted above that the state should handle these serious situations not the school.

    http://hotair.com/archives/2014/06/2...l-rape-column/

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