"The Lost Boys" - Duke players you wish had gotten more of a chance

[MarkD83]

After thinking about my post I did want to add something to show how spoiled we have been as Duke BBall fans.

Duke bball has been able to hoist the following banners since 1999.

ACC Championships :1999, 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2005, 2006, 2009, 2010, 2011
Final 4: 1999, 2001, 2004, 2010
NCAA championship: 2001, 2010

So Duke has done very well even when players leave early to go to the NBA. The issue is adjusting to stars leaving after 1 year.

[ChicagoCrazy84]

I'll give you guys a name that has more than likely been long forgotten by us Duke fans...

Andre Sweet.

I was so pumped when that guy came in (same year as Duhon). He came out of Harlem, I really thought he would give us an element similar to that of Corey Maggette after he left for the NBA. An energy pump off the bench and an edge. He only played 7 games his freshman year and got homesick so transferred back north to Seton Hall. Who knows if he would've stuck around if he played more, but it would've more than likely helped his homesickness.

[Saratoga2]

RE: Marty Pocius

A brief list of guys who played ahead of Pocius at the 2/3.

J.J. Redick
Sean Dockery (senior, when MP was a frosh)
DeMarcus Nelson
Jon Scheyer
Gerald Henderson
Nolan Smith

Which one of these guys would one want to sit in order for Pocius to have played more?

Duke lost Redick, Dockery and Lee Melchionni after 2006, Pocius' freshman season. He had every chance to win a starting spot in 2007 but Scheyer and Henderson simply beat him out. It's a meritocracy and Pocius simply wasn't as good as his competition.

This year we expanded the lineup for a few games with better results. Perhaps a little less of the top players and a little more of the good but not top would help not hurt team performance. This year it was Matt, Marshall and Semi who seemed to have something to offer but often player either no minutes or sparse minutes. Why do we recruit some very good players and let them sit totally? Seems to me that a better balance would be to give them a little more PT.

[jimsumner]

This year we expanded the lineup for a few games with better results. Perhaps a little less of the top players and a little more of the good but not top would help not hurt team performance. This year it was Matt, Marshall and Semi who seemed to have something to offer but often player either no minutes or sparse minutes. Why do we recruit some very good players and let them sit totally? Seems to me that a better balance would be to give them a little more PT.

A source of much legitimate discussion. And I do question the substitution rotation myself on occasion, sometimes occasions.

But K seems comfortable with a 7-8 man rotation and I suspect we won't see a lot of substantive changes at this point, a few hockey-style-substitution games this season, notwithstanding.

Let me throw in another bit of Pocius what-ifs. Recall that he missed most of one season with an ankle injury and qualified for a medical redshirt. That means he would have been eligible for a fifth year in 2010. Dawkins might have stayed in high school and Pocius would have been the only guard off the bench, behind Scheyer and Smith. He could have been the guy getting real PT off the bench, the guy slamming against Georgia Tech, the guy with nets hung around his neck. The opportunity was right there and he didn't grab it.

He had a chance to make big money going back home to play pro ball and we probably shouldn't read anything more into it than that. But I'll always wonder what might have been.

[MCFinARL]

A source of much legitimate discussion. And I do question the substitution rotation myself on occasion, sometimes occasions.

But K seems comfortable with a 7-8 man rotation and I suspect we won't see a lot of substantive changes at this point, a few hockey-style-substitution games this season, notwithstanding.

Let me throw in another bit of Pocius what-ifs. Recall that he missed most of one season with an ankle injury and qualified for a medical redshirt. That means he would have been eligible for a fifth year in 2010. Dawkins might have stayed in high school and Pocius would have been the only guard off the bench, behind Scheyer and Smith. He could have been the guy getting real PT off the bench, the guy slamming against Georgia Tech, the guy with nets hung around his neck. The opportunity was right there and he didn't grab it.

He had a chance to make big money going back home to play pro ball and we probably shouldn't read anything more into it than that. But I'll always wonder what might have been.

A potentially painful train of thought, as things might have turned out very differently for Dawkins as well as for Pocius.

[Edouble]

I'll give you guys a name that has more than likely been long forgotten by us Duke fans...

Andre Sweet.

I was so pumped when that guy came in (same year as Duhon). He came out of Harlem, I really thought he would give us an element similar to that of Corey Maggette after he left for the NBA. An energy pump off the bench and an edge. He only played 7 games his freshman year and got homesick so transferred back north to Seton Hall. Who knows if he would've stuck around if he played more, but it would've more than likely helped his homesickness.

If Sweet only played in seven games his freshman year, it is because he was on academic suspension for the spring semester. I recall that he left moreso for that reason than for being homesick.

[jimsumner]

A potentially painful train of thought, as things might have turned out very differently for Dawkins as well as for Pocius.

I intentionally didn't go there.

[brlftz]

Christian Ast
Joey Beard

[jimsumner]

Christian Ast
Joey Beard

Ah, Joey Beard. A consensus top-10 recruit. Played sparingly as a freshman in 1994, on a team that went to the title game.

But Duke lost both starting forwards, Grant Hill and Tony Lang and the expectation was that Beard would start at the 4 the following season. His competition was Tony Moore.

Senior Cherokee Parks would be the starting center. Duke decided to redshirt Parks' classmate Eric Meek, so that Meek would have a clear starting shot in 1996.

Greg Newton would be the back-up 5.

Seemed like a solid post rotation.

Then things began to fall apart. Beard developed mono. Duke got brutalized on the boards in one of their exhibition games. The decision was made to play Meek. Beard decided he didn't want to wait to get healthy and compete for PC and bailed for Boston University.

So, yes, things could very easily have turned out differently for Beard and Duke.

But here's the thing. Beard was a good player at BU, scoring in double figures. But he wasn't a star, not the way one would think a player with his prep reputation would be at a program at BU's level. After all he was a priority target for Duke, Carolina, Virginia, Kentucky. Shouldn't he have dominated at BU?

I know Duke thought he had put on some unneeded weight between high school and his freshman season, so there's that. His toughness has also been questioned. So, it's entirely possible he just wasn't that good to begin with.

[Newton_14]

RE: Marty Pocius

A brief list of guys who played ahead of Pocius at the 2/3.

J.J. Redick
Sean Dockery (senior, when MP was a frosh)
DeMarcus Nelson
Jon Scheyer
Gerald Henderson
Nolan Smith

Which one of these guys would one want to sit in order for Pocius to have played more?

Duke lost Redick, Dockery and Lee Melchionni after 2006, Pocius' freshman season. He had every chance to win a starting spot in 2007 but Scheyer and Henderson simply beat him out. It's a meritocracy and Pocius simply wasn't as good as his competition.

I fully agree with the facts and logic in your post Jim. No doubt. Marty could just never quite get over the hump of the competition. The weird thing for me though, was a few short years later, watching that very same kid, start at PG for his International Team in a game against the best players the USA team could put on the floor, aquit himself very well, and going down the stretch his team had a chance at victory. That was one of the most befuddling days ever for me, to be honest. One of those things I will never be able to reconcile.

And again, not mocking or being sarcastic. I honestly agree with every word you typed there. Those kids listed beat Marty out fair and square in each of the seasons.

[johnb]

RE: Marty Pocius

A brief list of guys who played ahead of Pocius at the 2/3.

J.J. Redick
Sean Dockery (senior, when MP was a frosh)
DeMarcus Nelson
Jon Scheyer
Gerald Henderson
Nolan Smith

Which one of these guys would one want to sit in order for Pocius to have played more?

Duke lost Redick, Dockery and Lee Melchionni after 2006, Pocius' freshman season. He had every chance to win a starting spot in 2007 but Scheyer and Henderson simply beat him out. It's a meritocracy and Pocius simply wasn't as good as his competition.

Even a roster of the competition that one player faced for PT over the span of a couple of years reminds me how many good players Duke has had.

[Kedsy]

His competition was Tony Moore.

Tony Moore is another guy who could make this "lost boy" list. Reportedly a great player in practice, and several times seemed on the verge of breaking into the starting lineup (or at least the rotation) when some weird off-court incident set him back. I've often wondered how good he could have been.

[tbyers11]

Tony Moore is another guy who could make this "lost boy" list. Reportedly a great player in practice, and several times seemed on the verge of breaking into the starting lineup (or at least the rotation) when some weird off-court incident set him back. I've often wondered how good he could have been.

If by weird off-court incident you meant being suspended for poor grades then I agree with you. He was getting some good minutes his senior year and definitely could have helped that team at the end of the season when Stan Brunson was getting serious minutes.

[jimsumner]

Tony Moore is another guy who could make this "lost boy" list. Reportedly a great player in practice, and several times seemed on the verge of breaking into the starting lineup (or at least the rotation) when some weird off-court incident set him back. I've often wondered how good he could have been.

Tony Moore. Talk about irony. He stays eligible for three seasons as a back-up. He gets a starting spot as a senior and flunks out.

He was an enigma. 6-8, 230, could jump out of the gym, strong as a horse. But his skill-set was limited and I'm not sure he ever really had a feel for the game.

Coulda, woulda, shoulda.

[GGLC]

Tony Moore was in my class year down in what were then "the new dorms" in Lancaster and Stratford, as was Chris Collins. Both were very nice, but in the few times I interacted with him, Moore never struck me as...the sharpest guy.

(Then again, I flunked out of Duke myself around the same time he did, so glass houses.)

[Wander]

RE: Marty Pocius

A brief list of guys who played ahead of Pocius at the 2/3.

J.J. Redick
Sean Dockery (senior, when MP was a frosh)
DeMarcus Nelson
Jon Scheyer
Gerald Henderson
Nolan Smith

Which one of these guys would one want to sit in order for Pocius to have played more?

Duke lost Redick, Dockery and Lee Melchionni after 2006, Pocius' freshman season. He had every chance to win a starting spot in 2007 but Scheyer and Henderson simply beat him out. It's a meritocracy and Pocius simply wasn't as good as his competition.

Pocius is the only example of the guys listed in this thread that I do think should have received more PT. Not in 2006, so drop Redick and Dockey off the list, but in 2007. Note that he played well in the game when he was forced to be a major contributor, the loss to NC State when Henderson was suspended. As for where the minutes would have come from - I know this is an example of "hindsight is 20/20," but ideally he would not have taken away minutes not from Henderson or Scheyer, but from Paulus, and the Scheyer at PG experiment would have started early (maybe Paulus and Pocius play 25 and 15 instead of 33 and 7, or something like that). Admittedly this was in no way the obvious solution at the time.

[jimsumner]

Pocius is the only example of the guys listed in this thread that I do think should have received more PT. Not in 2006, so drop Redick and Dockey off the list, but in 2007. Note that he played well in the game when he was forced to be a major contributor, the loss to NC State when Henderson was suspended. As for where the minutes would have come from - I know this is an example of "hindsight is 20/20," but ideally he would not have taken away minutes not from Henderson or Scheyer, but from Paulus, and the Scheyer at PG experiment would have started early (maybe Paulus and Pocius play 25 and 15 instead of 33 and 7, or something like that). Admittedly this was in no way the obvious solution at the time.

I'm not sure Scheyer could have handled point as a freshman in 2007. Paulus likely was Duke's only option. Pocius was competing against Scheyer, Henderson and Nelson at the 2/3.

As a relevant aside, Pocius is averaging 9.3 ppg in the Euro leagues this season. Solid but not close to star level.

[Kedsy]

If by weird off-court incident you meant being suspended for poor grades then I agree with you.

That was the last time. His junior year, the way I heard it, he'd earned his way into the rotation and then had to miss time because he was bitten by a jellyfish (and by the time he returned, the opportunity had passed). I think there was another odd thing, too, earlier than that, but I don't remember what it was.

[Kedsy]

Pocius is the only example of the guys listed in this thread that I do think should have received more PT. Not in 2006, so drop Redick and Dockey off the list, but in 2007. Note that he played well in the game when he was forced to be a major contributor, the loss to NC State when Henderson was suspended. As for where the minutes would have come from - I know this is an example of "hindsight is 20/20," but ideally he would not have taken away minutes not from Henderson or Scheyer, but from Paulus, and the Scheyer at PG experiment would have started early (maybe Paulus and Pocius play 25 and 15 instead of 33 and 7, or something like that). Admittedly this was in no way the obvious solution at the time.

I don't want to reignite the Paulus debate, nor am in any way a Paulus apologist, but Greg Paulus made the All-America freshman 2nd team in 2005-06 (the season before 2007) and was third-team All ACC in 2007-08 (the season after). It's true he was bothered by injury in 2006-07, but he still managed almost 12 ppg and almost 4 apg, while shooting 45% from three-point range. Marty Pocius's per minute and tempo free production suggest he wouldn't have done close to that well, but even giving him the benefit of the doubt and saying he might have scored a bit more if given Paulus's minutes, it's unlikely he would have scored too much more and he would almost certainly have assisted less and shot worse. Greg was a somewhat weak defensive player, but Marty was sort of famous for bad D as well. It's hard for me to see Pocius deserving any of Paulus's minutes.

[Wander]

I don't want to reignite the Paulus debate, nor am in any way a Paulus apologist, but Greg Paulus made the All-America freshman 2nd team in 2005-06 (the season before 2007) and was third-team All ACC in 2007-08 (the season after). It's true he was bothered by injury in 2006-07, but he still managed almost 12 ppg and almost 4 apg, while shooting 45% from three-point range. Marty Pocius's per minute and tempo free production suggest he wouldn't have done close to that well, but even giving him the benefit of the doubt and saying he might have scored a bit more if given Paulus's minutes, it's unlikely he would have scored too much more and he would almost certainly have assisted less and shot worse. Greg was a somewhat weak defensive player, but Marty was sort of famous for bad D as well. It's hard for me to see Pocius deserving any of Paulus's minutes.

I'll also avoid reigniting the Paulus debate, but I'm not suggesting that we plugged Pocius into Paulus' spot. I'm suggesting Scheyer at PG, and Henderson and Pocius at the wings - and again, not as our main lineup, just ~10 min a game. So even though Pocius would have assisted less than Paulus, this would be somewhat balanced out presumably by Scheyer's assist numbers going up, and in the most optimistic scenario, entirely balanced out or better by the team's turnover numbers going down. Maybe jimsumner is right and Scheyer was not ready for the PG attempt as a freshman, but I'm not convinced either way, and in hindsight I would have liked to see that experiment tried earlier (I would definitely not have thought to suggest this at the time).