Next jersey in the rafters?

[Wander]

Why not Nolan? Three reasons -- (1) he wasn't really a NPOY candidate

Nolan was definitely a serious NPOY candidate - he even won a couple minor NPOY awards from national media outlets (FoxSports and Yahoo).

I was on the fence for a while, but the more time passes, the more I support Singler, Smith, and Scheyer all going to the rafters. 2010 is our only national champion without two jerseys, let alone one. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe they're our only Final Four team without a jersey. I know the obvious counterargument is that those metrics are team accomplishments, but consider what the state of our program would be without those guys: we wouldn't have a single Final Four in the past decade, our status as a powerhouse could be seriously argued against, and Coach K would deservedly or not be feeling a ton of heat. Those guys saved the program.

[lotusland]

Why not Brand? Two years at Duke (but played only 1.6 seasons) is not enough to be recognized as an "all time great," even if he were to graduate some day. Led team to only one Final Four, but lost championship game.

Why Mullins? He was a star player on Duke's first two Final Four teams. Other than Heyman, he was clearly the best of the Bubas era.

If you start considering guys like Dunleavy, Boozer, Verga, Carawell, then what about Denton, Marin, Banks, etc., etc.? Where does it end when you have had so many terrific players?

Can't retire too many jerseys/numbers. In addition to lowering the extremely high standards, we'd run out of numbers for future players.

Retirement is for the extra special, super stars. Hall of Fame recognition is there for other greats who fall a bit short. I'd expect to see Nolan and Kyle in the Duke Sports HOF someday.

So this circles back to the original question (after the inevitable discussion about whether X former player deserves having their jersey retired) - how often will we see a player in the OAD era who meets the criteria (whatever it is) if you insist that they contribute more than Jon, Kyle, Nolan and Mason. It could happen and probably will again but almost certainly not at the rate it did in the latter part of the last century.

[lotusland]

That's what I was gonna suggest. If Tyus does JWill's 3 Year Plan, he's our guy for next retirement, I think.

Tyus will surely be a much different player than JWill but I wonder if JWill would stay three years in today's environment. His shortened NBA career is a pretty strong argument not to lengthen your college career any more than necessary. I really Doubt Tyus stays three years if his first two are comparable to Jwill's.

[Bay Area Duke Fan]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe they're our only Final Four team without a jersey.

The 1966 Final Four team had no player whose jersey has been retired. Heyman and Mullins were the only Bubas-era players so honored.

[gep]

I doubt Elton gets retired even if he does get his degree. I think that getting the degree years down the road doesn't mean as much to the legacy of the player as getting it while you're still in the program, but that could just be picking nits.

I was thinking about this too. Graduation, while being a player at the school, clearly puts you in the student/athlete category, which requires all of the necessary commitments to study, time management, practices, games... over 4 (or 3) years. Add to that the extreme commitment to excel as a player to earn a "national award". Leaving early, and then getting your degree years after leaving, while very admirable, doesn't quite fit the student/athlete definition, if a good portion of the "student" part is not while playing for the school. One minor exception... I think JWill got his final 2 courses done in the summer after his 3rd year and graduated in August(?).

[Tappan Zee Devil]

On the strength of their careers, I believe that Kyle and Nolan absolutely should be in -- I think they're on a qualitatively different level than most of the guys Bay Area Duke Fan mentioned (I don't know enough about Verga, Marin, or for that matter Spanarkel to offer a judgment). But I do agree with gurufrisbee that the fact that Scheyer was right there along with them as a core part of that national title team and a four-year player may be a key reason that we don't now see Kyle and Nolan's jerseys up there in the rafters.

My Freshman year was Verga's Senior year. He averaged over 26 points per game that year (which was the Duke record until JJ broke it) - and that was with no shot clock and no three point line. If there had a three point line he would have had well over 30 points a game. He could really bomb from long-distance. It was really something to watch.

I think one reason that he has not gotten the recognition that he probably deserves is that he was also a loner and not easy to like at a personal level.

[CameronBornAndBred]

Tyus will surely be a much different player than JWill but I wonder if JWill would stay three years in today's environment. His shortened NBA career is a pretty strong argument not to lengthen your college career any more than necessary.

I don't get it. Does staying only two years mean he wouldn't have jumped on the bike? His staying and graduating actually gave him the means to have a career after his playing days were quickly shortened, so I would think the opposite of your argument would be true.

[CDu]

I don't get it. Does staying only two years mean he wouldn't have jumped on the bike? His staying and graduating actually gave him the means to have a career after his playing days were quickly shortened, so I would think the opposite of your argument would be true.

Yeah, Williams (though he is a fairly unique case) absolutely was helped by staying. It got him that Duke degree and kept him firmly in the Duke family with those connections. One can only assume he'd have bought the motorcycle and not learned to ride (and thus been at the same risk) had he left as a sophomore or as a junior.

[roywhite]

IMO, next jersey in the rafters will come from someone yet to play their first game for Duke.

My hunch -- Tyus Jones or Luke Kennard
Tyus for his passing and leadership, which can result in assist numbers, team wins, and championships
Kennard -- a big-time scorer, I think, and he can also figure in championships

For serious consideration, their Duke careers would need to be at least 3 seasons
My crystal ball does not yet indicate how many seasons played or what final stats will be for these young men.

[msdukie]

You know it is the offseason when we are starting this ridiculous thread again. As to the original poster, I'd like to know how we are "recycling retired numbers?" Finally, instead of bringing up Gminski and Mullins and comparing them to NPOYs, has it occurred to anyone that as time has gone on and the program has become greater that the standards for and difficulty of getting one's number retired has changed?

If Mullins and Gminski played today, I think their chances of getting their jerseys retired would be lower than at the time the decisions were made.

While the only requirements are graduation and an honor of national significance (left undefined), if you play at Duke 4 years and graduate (or graduate in 3), and are NPOY you are getting your number retired. Anything else is mere speculation.

[uh_no]

You know it is the offseason when we are starting this ridiculous thread again. As to the original poster, I'd like to know how we are "recycling retired numbers?" Finally, instead of bringing up Gminski and Mullins and comparing them to NPOYs, has it occurred to anyone that as time has gone on and the program has become greater that the standards for and difficulty of getting one's number retired has changed?

If Mullins and Gminski played today, I think their chances of getting their jerseys retired would be lower than at the time the decisions were made.

While the only requirements are graduation and an honor of national significance (left undefined), if you play at Duke 4 years and graduate (or graduate in 3), and are NPOY you are getting your number retired. Anything else is mere speculation.

now that's something i'd pay to see!

though we might need the trainers on high alert

[Edouble]

We could assume that, but even that criteria has been violated. Because Hurley, Gminski, and Mullins didn't meet either of those criteria (as none got NPoY or NDPoY).

Unless Coach K changed his criteria midway through his tenure (sometime after Mullins and Hurley got their numbers retired), which I guess is possible.

I'm certain that he did.

At the Q&A segment of the pre-UNC game "team meeting" in probably '96 or '97, someone in the crowd asked what a player had to do to have his jersey retired.

Coach K's answer was that they had to be a "National Player of the Year, or on that level for several years" and also go to "probably a couple of Final Fours". It was a loose answer, but I remember what he said very clearly, as I had always wondered that myself.

Keep in mind of course that the last jersey retired at this time was Grant Hill's.

[Bay Area Duke Fan]

I'm certain that he did.

At the Q&A segment of the pre-UNC game "team meeting" in probably '96 or '97, someone in the crowd asked what a player had to do to have his jersey retired.

Coach K's answer was that they had to be a "National Player of the Year, or on that level for several years" and also go to "probably a couple of Final Fours". It was a loose answer, but I remember what he said very clearly, as I had always wondered that myself.

Keep in mind of course that the last jersey retired at this time was Grant Hill's.

Jeff Mullins' jersey was retired in 1994, same year as Hill's.

[wsb3]

My Freshman year was Verga's Senior year. He averaged over 26 points per game that year (which was the Duke record until JJ broke it) - and that was with no shot clock and no three point line. If there had a three point line he would have had well over 30 points a game. He could really bomb from long-distance. It was really something to watch.

Very good post. One other tidbit. Averaged 22 PPG for a career. He is without question for me the most obvious choice for a jersey missing in the rafters.

[lotusland]

I don't get it. Does staying only two years mean he wouldn't have jumped on the bike? His staying and graduating actually gave him the means to have a career after his playing days were quickly shortened, so I would think the opposite of your argument would be true.

Maybe your right that jwills situation doesn't inform others to leave early but my thought was that his experience emphasizes that your pro playing days are numbered and can end much sooner than expected.

[jimsumner]

Some random thoughts.

I've always wondered why Mullins but not Vega. Career stats very close,both three-time first-team All-ACC, All-America. Mullins was ACC POY, while Verga was a close second to Larry Miller in 1967 (Verga had the most votes for All-ACC), Mullins has an Olympic gold medal, and Mullins played in two FF's, to Verga's one.

But I suspect other factors may be at work. Mullins stayed very close to the program, while Verga did not.

But I still maintain that if Duke retires any more jerseys, Verga has to top the list.

Gminski is a no-brainer, for me. Look at his resume. ACC co-freshman of the year, three-time first-team All-ACC, 1979 ACC POY, two-time All-America. He was Duke's all-time leader in points, rebounds and blocks when his jersey was retired in 1980.

Singler? One of my favorite Duke players. I loved his fire, his competitiveness, his refusal to take off a single play.

And his cumulative stats are pretty impressive.

But. We are talking about a guy who never made AP All-America, never won ACC POY, was never even the best player on his team (Nelson, 2008: Henderson, 2009; Scheyer, 2010; Smith, 2011). Is that good enough to leap-frog Verga, Mark Alarie, Jim Spanarkel, Gene Banks, Trajan Langdon, et. al? I think not.

And yes, he was 2010 FF MOP and deservedly so. But guys like Jeff Shepard and Wayne Ellington also won that award and they aren't jersey-in-the-rafter kind of guys. So, I think Singler is a silly centimeter shy.

As for the next icon? Haven't a clue. It's a Catch-22. The guys good enough to merit jersey retirement are not likely to stick around long enough. Maybe Luke Kennard or some we haven't seen yet will stick around as an All-America. Maybe the NBA and the player's union will bump up the age requirement. Who knows?

[Edouble]

Maybe your right that jwills situation doesn't inform others to leave early but my thought was that his experience emphasizes that your pro playing days are numbered and can end much sooner than expected.

I have always assumed that if Jason had gone pro after his sophomore year that he would have been taken by the Wizards with the first pick. At some point, he most likely would have been blown away by Gilbert Arenas (doesn't like Coach K) or Lonny Baxter (doesn't like Duke). So, in my mind, he saved a broadcasting career, at least, by staying at Duke for his junior year.

[sagegrouse]

Singler? One of my favorite Duke players. I loved his fire, his competitiveness, his refusal to take off a single play.

And his cumulative stats are pretty impressive.

But. We are talking about a guy who never made AP All-America, never won ACC POY, was never even the best player on his team (Nelson, 2008: Henderson, 2009; Scheyer, 2010; Smith, 2011)...

And yes, he was 2010 FF MOP and deservedly so. But guys like Jeff Shepard and Wayne Ellington also won that award and they aren't jersey-in-the-rafter kind of guys. So, I think Singler is a silly centimeter shy.

"...was never the best player on his team..." Maybe you are right, Jim, but I wouldn't be be too sure about that. Kyle was the heart-and-soul of all four Duke teams. The knowledgeable college coaches even gave him an all-American selection in 2011, despite his poor shooting that year. And BTW what is Kyle doing now vs. the other guys you mentioned? Only Henderson is in the NBA.

Three years ago, it looked like Nolan Smith might be NPOY, which seems to always lead to a jersey retirement. Coach K started extolling the accomplishments of Singler (especially position on the all-time Duke scoring and rebounding lists). I thought at the time that, if Nolan got his jersey retired, Kyle's would go up as well.

[CameronBornAndBred]

And BTW what is Kyle doing now vs. the other guys you mentioned? Only Henderson is in the NBA.

To be fair to Scheyer, he obviously never got a chance due to his freak injury, BUT he is on our bench again on his way to a long coaching career. You are right about Demarcus and Nolan, both of which are surprising to me. I had lots of hopes for Nelson sticking around, especially since he started on opening night.

[jimsumner]

"...was never the best player on his team..." Maybe you are right, Jim, but I wouldn't be be too sure about that. Kyle was the heart-and-soul of all four Duke teams. The knowledgeable college coaches even gave him an all-American selection in 2011, despite his poor shooting that year. And BTW what is Kyle doing now vs. the other guys you mentioned? Only Henderson is in the NBA.

Three years ago, it looked like Nolan Smith might be NPOY, which seems to always lead to a jersey retirement. Coach K started extolling the accomplishments of Singler (especially position on the all-time Duke scoring and rebounding lists). I thought at the time that, if Nolan got his jersey retired, Kyle's would go up as well.

Marty Nessley played in the NBA, while classmate Tommy Amaker never did.

Pretty sure that doesn't mean Nessley was a better player than Amaker while they were at Duke.

Shavlik Randolph played in the NBA this season. Where would you rank him in the pantheon? Lance Thomas played in the NBA, Scheyer didn't.

Singler's cumulative stats are very impressive. Because he was good. But also because he played lots of games, almost twice as many as some guys from the '60s whose jerseys hang from the rafters. He helped his team play lots of games by helping them win in the post-season. But four years at 35-40 games per season is a lot different than three years at 30 games for season. His per-game stats aren't anywhere near as impressive as his cumulative stats. Apples and oranges,

I understand what Singler brought to the team and have stated many times that he is one of my favorite Duke players. I interviewed him numerous times, saw every home game and some road games he played at while at Duke. In person. Courtside. Close enough to be sweated on. So, yes I understand his value.
We probably share DNA.

But NBA success or lack thereof is irrelevant to the point at hand. Kyle Singler was never the best player on his Duke team.

As I stated earlier, I think he's a silly centimeter shy. That's pretty good. But the criteria, as explained to me by the last two Duke ADs, take into account national honors. Season-long national honors. Singler simply doesn't meet that threshold.

Unless we go all Carolina and count his pre-season national POY recognition for 2010-11.