Next jersey in the rafters?

[lotusland]

And Grant Hill's jersey is retired...

The players who don't have either an NDPoY or an NPoY but do have their jerseys retired are Mullins, Gminski, and Hurley.

Hurley was first team AA in 1993. He is also the NCAA ALL TIME leader in assists. Any criteria that would leave off Hurley is just wrong.

[Duvall]

I suppose I should have added "therefore, NDPOY is sufficient."

I think I remember it like dutch, win a national award or claim a national record, and that should be enough. The rules got stricter as time went on.

But I don't think NDPOY by itself *would* be enough. Look at the last three players to win the NABC National Defensive Player of the Year Award - Victor Oladipo, Jeff Withey and Aaron Craft. Good players, but jersey retirement good? If Duke had another good-but-not-great player win a NDPOY award, I don't think that should or would be enough for retirement, regardless of what Krzyewski and Brodhead have said.

[Dev11]

But I don't think NDPOY by itself *would* be enough. Look at the last three players to win the NABC National Defensive Player of the Year Award - Victor Oladipo, Jeff Withey and Aaron Craft. Good players, but jersey retirement good? If Duke had another good-but-not-great player win a NDPOY award, I don't think that should or would be enough for retirement, regardless of what Krzyewski and Brodhead have said.

Well, both Shelden and Grant were first team All-Americans. If NDPOY was all they needed, I think we would have a few more retired jerseys, including Tommy Amaker and Steve Wojciechowski.

[Dukehky]

The requirements per Coach K at Duke Basketball camp Circa 2003 is graduation and a significant national award/recognition. NDPOY is not enough as the record suggests because Wojo and Billy King's jerseys aren't retired. I think a two time winning of that award would do it. Final Four MOP is not one of those requirements because it isn't a season long thing. Hurley is the all time assist leader, that's a major national recognition. I cannot speak to the requirements in the pre-K era.

I think Nolan is more deserving than Kyle of having his jersey in the rafters because he had the best season of the two in 2011 than Kyle ever had.

I don't think any Duke player will ever have their jersey retired again. I don't think any player we have that wins a NPOY will stay long enough to graduate. Does the 2 and done rule potentially change that, yes. But as we are today, I do not foresee another Duke player getting his jersey in the rafters.

[Duvall]

Well, both Shelden and Grant were first team All-Americans. If NDPOY was all they needed, I think we would have a few more retired jerseys, including Tommy Amaker and Steve Wojciechowski.

Right. First-team All-America is not enough (see Nolan Smith) and NDPOY is not enough (see Amaker, Wojciechowski, King). Start combining them along with other factors, as Hill and Shelden did, and you have a jersey retirement case. But it's a matter of judgment - there are no hard and fast rules like they have at UNC.

[Dukehky]

Right. First-team All-America is not enough (see Nolan Smith) and NDPOY is not enough (see Amaker, Wojciechowski, King). Start combining them along with other factors, as Hill and Shelden did, and you have a jersey retirement case. But it's a matter of judgment - there are no hard and fast rules like they have at UNC.

Absolutely correct. The significant "national recognition" requirement gives K some wiggle room to add people he finds deserving if they weren't able to win a NPOY award that they maybe had earned, like Hill. Personally I don't think any of the four people you listed that don't have their jerseys retired should have them retired. Wojo is a legend, but he is not on the same level as the guys up there. Nolan is tougher, but there are lots of really good Duke players who aren't up there, but his senior season was something special.

[uh_no]

whenever I see these threads, I think of the dean dome...and you look up in the rafters and there's like 50 something jerseys...

we have standards at duke that are phenomenally high, so high that even some very good players and people don't meet them. Do we want to be like UNC with a billion jerseys up there for people nobody has ever heard of? not that i'm suggesting nobody has ever heard of kyle or nolan, or wojo...but the standard is simply very very high....

we can start with: how many all americans at duke didn't get retired? 23....if you can make a case for kyle or nolan based on AA, what about the other 21 guys? should we string them all up? They were all very very good players...good enough to be among the best in the nation. Being an all american quality player should be something EVERY duke basketball player should strive for. Getting retired is a step beyond that.

Edit: so apparently UNC only has EIGHT retired numbers...and another 50 "honored" numbers or some such....so we put them in the hall of fame, UNC hangs their number in the rafters....

[flyingdutchdevil]

whenever I see these threads, I think of the dean dome...and you look up in the rafters and there's like 50 something jerseys...

we have standards at duke that are phenomenally high, so high that even some very good players and people don't meet them. Do we want to be like UNC with a billion jerseys up there for people nobody has ever heard of? not that i'm suggesting nobody has ever heard of kyle or nolan, or wojo...but the standard is simply very very high....

we can start with: how many all americans at duke didn't get retired? 23....if you can make a case for kyle or nolan based on AA, what about the other 21 guys? should we string them all up? They were all very very good players...good enough to be among the best in the nation. Being an all american quality player should be something EVERY duke basketball player should strive for. Getting retired is a step beyond that.

Edit: so apparently UNC only has EIGHT retired numbers...and another 50 "honored" numbers or some such....so we put them in the hall of fame, UNC hangs their number in the rafters....

I really like the idea of "Honored". Gives credit where credit is due without having to sacrifice a number. I give UNC props for that one.

[uh_no]

I really like the idea of "Honored". Gives credit where credit is due without having to sacrifice a number. I give UNC props for that one.

we have a hall of fame attached to cameron...there simply isn't space to string up 30-40 more jersey numbers....

[flyingdutchdevil]

we have a hall of fame attached to cameron...there simply isn't space to string up 30-40 more jersey numbers....

Not true. There is space. It just won't look nice. And it won't effectively highlight the champ banners and retired jerseys.

Small sacrifice you make for keeping a small arena.

[Olympic Fan]

Why is this so hard to understand? The ONLY fixed-in-stone criteria for jersey retirement is graduation.

NPOY?

That certainly plays a big role -- but Elton Brand was the consensus NPOY and his jersey is not up there ... he didn't graduate. Every Duke NPOY with a degree is in the rafters. (The Brand case should tell you that Okafor is not going to get his jersey retired for one year's work -- no matter how good).

NDPOY?

It's a nice addition, but it's not enough in itself. Amaker, Billy King and Wojo were national defensive players of the year -- and they were players K loved. But none has had his jersey retired. The NDPOY with retired jerseys (Grant Hill, Shane Battier and Shelden Williams) were also consensus first-team All-Americans.

Consensus first-team All-American

MOST of the guys in the rafters were consensus first-team All-Americans -- Groat, Heyman, Gminski, Dawkins, Ferry Laettner, Hurley, G Hill, Battier, Jason Williams, JJ Redick, Shelden Williams.

But one guy in the rafters was never a consensus first-team A-A: Jeff Mullins (he was close in 1964, but did not make it).

THREE consensus first-team guys have degrees and aren't in the rafters: Bob Verga, Chris Carrawell and Nolan Smith.

Of course, Elton Brand and now Jabari Parker count as first-team guys without degrees.

We can talk about criteria all we want, but it basically comes down to one thing -- Coach K's judgment. It's his call, pure and simple. And he can change the criteria at will. He's already done that once. Early in his career, he retired jerseys on Senior Night -- before graduation, but for guys who were on track to graduating. Later, he delayed the retirement until after they had graduated.

Coach K is responsible for retiring Heyman and Mullins jerseys. You see, Duke retired Duke Groat in 1952 (both in basketball and baseball). When Heyman was a senior, Vic Bubas wanted to retire his jersey too, but AD Eddie Cameron blocked it -- he thought Groat's No. 10 should be Duke's only retired jersey. He also blocked jersey retirements for the rest of the Bubas era. But Cameron was gone when Mike Gminski finished a great career in 1980 and AD Tom Butters approved his jersey retirement. But that created resentment -- G-man was great and deserved a retired jersey, but he wasn't as good as Heyman, who had been passed over.

When K started retiring jerseys of his own stars, starting with Dawkins, he became aware of the situation and talked to Bubas about worthy players from the 1960s. Coach K got Heyman's jersey retired in 1990 and Mullins' in 1994. Why they passed on Verga (and Marin) is between K and Bubas.

The only question I have is this -- if Elton Brand retired to Duke after his retirement and got a degree, would Duke hang his jersey in the rafters?

[brevity]

Seems like not that long ago we were full of angst about guys getting snubbed vs. the danger that the rafters would get too crowded and we would run out of available numbers. Now we're recycling retired numbers and I'm wondering how long before Duke retires anther jersey.

We're recycling retired numbers? News to me.

The retired jersey question, like any Hall of Fame question, depends on whether you like your all-time pantheon to be more inclusive or exclusive. One way to measure the level of greatness is by seeing who can't get in. Over time I've adapted from a more inclusive mentality to a more exclusive one. Not to write off any future upperclassman players, but if no other jerseys are retired in my lifetime, I'm okay with that. It's not like the pantheon needs to be updated regularly to keep it modern.

[InSpades]

I think Nolan is more deserving than Kyle of having his jersey in the rafters because he had the best season of the two in 2011 than Kyle ever had.

This is definitely true, but Kyle's 1st 2 years were so much better than Nolan's 1st 2 years. Kyle's freshman year especially stands out. We went from a team w/ 11 losses and an 8-8 conference record to a team w/ 6 losses and an 11-3 conference record thanks in large part to Kyle's contributions. Of course Demarcus really stepped up and Jon and Gerald contributed a lot as well. Kyle played center for that team. One of the most impressive years I've ever seen out of a freshman. Grossly out of position, he was a warrior inside. He will always be one of my favorite Duke players.

[lotusland]

We're recycling retired numbers? News to me.

The retired jersey question, like any Hall of Fame question, depends on whether you like your all-time pantheon to be more inclusive or exclusive. One way to measure the level of greatness is by seeing who can't get in. Over time I've adapted from a more inclusive mentality to a more exclusive one. Not to write off any future upperclassman players, but if no other jerseys are retired in my lifetime, I'm okay with that. It's not like the pantheon needs to be updated regularly to keep it modern.

Hmmm I thought someone had been given JWill's #22 but, upon further review, it appears Jabari was given approval to wear it but chose not to.

[GGLC]

When K started retiring jerseys of his own stars, starting with Dawkins, he became aware of the situation and talked to Bubas about worthy players from the 1960s. Coach K got Heyman's jersey retired in 1990 and Mullins' in 1994. Why they passed on Verga (and Marin) is between K and Bubas.

For those who were wondering (as I was), Bob Verga wore #11, and Jack Marin wore #24.

Edited to add:

Hmmm I thought someone had been given JWill's #22 but, upon further review, it appears Jabari was given approval to wear it but chose not to.

Wow, really? I've never heard that before, and I find it extremely surprising.

[sagegrouse]

But of course that can't be the rule, because Shelden was never national player of the year. Now Brodhead did mention Shelden's National Defensive Player of the Year awards at his jersey retirement, but NDPOY alone just isn't enough to justify retirement.

Can we assume that graduation + NPOY or graduation + consensus 1st-team All-America + NDPOY will get a jersey retired? Probably, but it's not an actual rule, and never has been.

Let's not make this problem too hard.

Question: How many consensus first-term All-Americans have NOT had their Duke jerseys retired?

Answer: Four -- Bob Verga (1967), Elton Brand (1999), Chris Carrawell (2000) and Nolan Smith (2011)

Question: How many players who received at least one NPOY of the year award have not had their jerseys retired?

Answer: One -- Elton Brand (consensus, 1999)

Question: How many players have had their jerseys retired without getting at least one NPOY award?

Answer: Three -- Mullins (1960s), Hurley (1990s) and Shelden (2000s)

Why and why not?

Why not Brand is easy -- two years and no degree.

Why not Carrawell is tougher, but almost all of Chris's honors were concentrated in a single season and he did little in hoops after Duke.

Why not Nolan? Three reasons -- (1) he wasn't really a NPOY candidate; (2) IMHO -- where the H is silent -- Nolan ain't getting retired without Singler getting his jersey in the rafters. While not a consensus A-A, Kyle was All-ACC four years in a row (twice first team); he is #4 in Duke scoring and #7 in rebounds, surrounded by players with retired jerseys. Kyle was the gritty leader of the four teams he played on. (3) Nolan isn't likely to add to his status at Duke with his pro record.

Why Mullins? A helluva player but with beaucoup honors after Duke -- all previously cited -- Olympic gold, NBA championship, NBA all-star x3, successful college coach. And, did I mention, he is one of the most personable guys that ever lived.

Why Shelden? How the heck could he be NPOY being in the same class with JJ? But he was twice DPOY. And when JJ's jersey was retired it would have been unthinkable not to retire Shel's.

Why not Verga? Twice consensus All-American (2nd and then 1st team). He got no honors for NPOY of the year, but then there was that Alcindor kid at UCLA his senior year who won every honor in the land. He had a decent career in the ABA -- 21 PPG for five years -- but played only briefly in the NBA.

Well, since I brought his name up, why not Singler? Well, he wasn't a consensus A-A, mostly because he lost his 3-pt. shot during much of his senior year.

Verga may eventually get his jersey retired, but his absence from Duke and lack of closeness to the program isn't helping. But, of course, if he hadn't been sick and a non-factor against Kentucky, Duke might have posted its first banner and Verga's jersey would be waving in the rafters.

Nolan may get his jersey retired on merit -- NC, 1st team A-A -- but if so, look for Singler's to go up at the same time.

Carrawell doesn't seem to be much in the conversation, since his contributions were limited to just one year (2000 -- he was 3rd team All ACC in 1999). A NC in 1999 would have added a lot to his credentials.

Final thought: Don't be surprised if Mike Dunleavy Jr. gets some mention: consensus 2nd team; graduated in three years; won a NC; has had a long and productive career in the NBA. (Of which, I will always remember Kenny Smith's immortal question: "Six-nine? Six-nine? How does Mike Dunleavy [Sr.] have a son that is six-nine? What is he, five-eleven?")

Sage
'Also, Carlos Boozer, but I don't think he's gonna get a degree. 'Los had some A-A mention, won a NC, an Olympic gold (and bronze), and has been a star in the NBA for 12 years'

[Li_Duke]

Final thought: Don't be surprised if Mike Dunleavy Jr. gets some mention: consensus 2nd team; graduated in three years; won a NC; has had a long and productive career in the NBA. (Of which, I will always remember Kenny Smith's immortal question: "Six-nine? Six-nine? How does Mike Dunleavy [Sr.] have a son that is six-nine? What is he, five-eleven?")

I don't remember him graduating in 3 years. I remember that he had a choice of returning to Duke and likely getting his jersey retired after his senior year or going pro, and he chose going pro.

[Dukehky]

Let's not make this problem too hard.

Question: How many consensus first-term All-Americans have NOT had their Duke jerseys retired?

Answer: Four -- Bob Verga (1967), Elton Brand (1999), Chris Carrawell (2000) and Nolan Smith (2011)

Question: How many players who received at least one NPOY of the year award have not had their jerseys retired?

Answer: One -- Elton Brand (consensus, 1999)

Question: How many players have had their jerseys retired without getting at least one NPOY award?

Answer: Three -- Mullins (1960s), Hurley (1990s) and Shelden (2000s)

Why and why not?

Why not Brand is easy -- two years and no degree.

Why not Carrawell is tougher, but almost all of Chris's honors were concentrated in a single season and he did little in hoops after Duke.

Why not Nolan? Three reasons -- (1) he wasn't really a NPOY candidate; (2) IMHO -- where the H is silent -- Nolan ain't getting retired without Singler getting his jersey in the rafters. While not a consensus A-A, Kyle was All-ACC four years in a row (twice first team); he is #4 in Duke scoring and #7 in rebounds, surrounded by players with retired jerseys. Kyle was the gritty leader of the four teams he played on. (3) Nolan isn't likely to add to his status at Duke with his pro record.

Why Mullins? A helluva player but with beaucoup honors after Duke -- all previously cited -- Olympic gold, NBA championship, NBA all-star x3, successful college coach. And, did I mention, he is one of the most personable guys that ever lived.

Why Shelden? How the heck could he be NPOY being in the same class with JJ? But he was twice DPOY. And when JJ's jersey was retired it would have been unthinkable not to retire Shel's.

Why not Verga? Twice consensus All-American (2nd and then 1st team). He got no honors for NPOY of the year, but then there was that Alcindor kid at UCLA his senior year who won every honor in the land. He had a decent career in the ABA -- 21 PPG for five years -- but played only briefly in the NBA.

Well, since I brought his name up, why not Singler? Well, he wasn't a consensus A-A, mostly because he lost his 3-pt. shot during much of his senior year.

Verga may eventually get his jersey retired, but his absence from Duke and lack of closeness to the program isn't helping. But, of course, if he hadn't been sick and a non-factor against Kentucky, Duke might have posted its first banner and Verga's jersey would be waving in the rafters.

Nolan may get his jersey retired on merit -- NC, 1st team A-A -- but if so, look for Singler's to go up at the same time.

Carrawell doesn't seem to be much in the conversation, since his contributions were limited to just one year (2000 -- he was 3rd team All ACC in 1999). A NC in 1999 would have added a lot to his credentials.

Final thought: Don't be surprised if Mike Dunleavy Jr. gets some mention: consensus 2nd team; graduated in three years; won a NC; has had a long and productive career in the NBA. (Of which, I will always remember Kenny Smith's immortal question: "Six-nine? Six-nine? How does Mike Dunleavy [Sr.] have a son that is six-nine? What is he, five-eleven?")

Sage
'Also, Carlos Boozer, but I don't think he's gonna get a degree. 'Los had some A-A mention, won a NC, an Olympic gold (and bronze), and has been a star in the NBA for 12 years'

I don't think anyone's career in the NBA will have anything to do with getting their jersey retired. Nolan, Kyle, Dunleavy, Carrawell will not get their jersey's retired (C-Well can't because 23 is already up there).

I have heard these words out of coach K's mouth, "Graduation and a significant national recognition." While the first part is clear, the second part is much more vague, but I don't think that 1 first team AA or 1 NDPOY cuts it, nor does being in the top ten in more than one DUKE stat category.

And to answer your question, I think that if Brand were to get his degree, his jersey would be immediately retired. He was one of the most dominant players Duke has ever had. Dominant is the key word there, to stop him you had to triple team him. Not the best, the most dominating. If you don't understand what I'm trying to say, then don't worry about it. But if I'm starting an All Star Duke team, he's my Center. I hate Jake Voskhul forever.

[johnb]

I think it does come down basically to Coach K's judgment.

If, for example, Jabari had kept hitting his 3's at a 48% clip (or whatever), and if McDermott had gone pro a year early, and if we'd won the NC, Jabari would likely have been the NPOY. And would likely have gone pro after one year. If he'd left and never taken another college class, no jersey in the rafters. If he went on to have a solid NBA career, got a degree online, and returned to Durham only for K's retirement, no jersey in the rafters. If, however, he took classes at Duke regularly, and spent his summers in Durham when he wasn't playing for Team USA and being the next Lebron Bryant, and was clearly seen as a Duke guy, he'd be getting his jersey lifted at his college graduation ceremony.

Meanwhile, I was a little surprised by the decision about Nolan and Kyle, though I do think it was a decision rather than 2 decisions (kinda had to take both if you're going to take one). But if the criteria is excellent player and good guy, we really would run out of numbers. So, they got dinged much like Carrawell, Spanarkel, etc...

[gurufrisbee]

I know it's not criteria, but if you don't spend at least three years playing for Duke I don't think you should even be considered. Maybe if you were a huge leader and Duke won back to back national titles your two seasons. Maybe - assuming you did come back and eventually graduate.