Next jersey in the rafters?

[Olympic Fan]

One note about Kyle Singer.

He started in more victories than any other player in NCAA history.

The NCAA doesn't actually keep that stat. They do measure the number of wins players have played in -- and Kyle is like 6th or 7th on that list with 125 wins -- behind Shane Battier (132), among others.

But every player ahead of him came off the bench in a substantial number of wins (including Battier), while Singler started 124 of his 125 wins.

PS Jim, in your comparison of Mullions and Verga, you note that both were All-Americans -- but the fact is that Verga was a consensus first-team All-America ... Mullins was never more than a consensus second-team guy. But Mullins did win an ACC POY and an ACC Tournament MVP (when you had to win the tournament to go to the NCAA) ... Verga won neither, although he easily could have won twice -- in 1966 he was edged out for ACC POY by teammate Steve Vacendak (who was only second-team ACC, but won ACC POY; he also finished behind teammate Jack Marin). As you note in 1967, Verga was the leading All-ACC bote-getter, but he lost the POY vote to Larry Miller by a 52-48 margin.

That said, I agree with you that if any past player was added, it should be Verga (and his No. 11 has been retired -- for Hurley).

After that, I think the Singler/Smith combo should go in together.

[jimsumner]

One note about Kyle Singer.

He started in more victories than any other player in NCAA history.

The NCAA doesn't actually keep that stat. They do measure the number of wins players have played in -- and Kyle is like 6th or 7th on that list with 125 wins -- behind Shane Battier (132), among others.

But every player ahead of him came off the bench in a substantial number of wins (including Battier), while Singler started 124 of his 125 wins.

PS Jim, in your comparison of Mullions and Verga, you note that both were All-Americans -- but the fact is that Verga was a consensus first-team All-America ... Mullins was never more than a consensus second-team guy. But Mullins did win an ACC POY and an ACC Tournament MVP (when you had to win the tournament to go to the NCAA) ... Verga won neither, although he easily could have won twice -- in 1966 he was edged out for ACC POY by teammate Steve Vacendak (who was only second-team ACC, but won ACC POY; he also finished behind teammate Jack Marin). As you note in 1967, Verga was the leading All-ACC bote-getter, but he lost the POY vote to Larry Miller by a 52-48 margin.

That said, I agree with you that if any past player was added, it should be Verga (and his No. 11 has been retired -- for Hurley).

After that, I think the Singler/Smith combo should go in together.

Consensus second-team All-America is better than anything Singler accomplished.

I hate threads like this because they make it seem like I'm dissing Singler and I'm doing nothing of the sort. But my good friend Olympic Friend knows that Singler doesn't meet the national-honor guidelines. Doesn't mean Duke won't look the other way for him. But it is out there.

[Olympic Fan]

Consensus second-team All-America is better than anything Singler accomplished.

I hate threads like this because they make it seem like I'm dissing Singler and I'm doing nothing of the sort. But my good friend Olympic Friend knows that Singler doesn't meet the national-honor guidelines. Doesn't mean Duke won't look the other way for him. But it is out there.

It's the same problem with the Baseball Hall of Fame or the size of the NCAA Tournament field -- you have to draw a line somewhere and wherever you draw it, there's going to be somebody just on the other side of the line that's going to have an argument.

Right now, the line would seem to be between Mullins (the least qualified guy in the rafters) and Verga (the most qualified guy not in the rafters). But put Verga in and the Singler partisans start pushing for their man. Put him in and the Nolan Smith guys make a push for their guy .. then Jack Marin, Trajan Langdon, John Scheyer, Mark Alarie, Randy Denton ... the list of great players goes on.

If you put everybody in, it's not much of an honor. I like having honored jerseys for the guys who don't quite make the cut for retired jerseys -- and I like honoring them in the team's Hall of Fame museum, not hanging from the rafters (seriously, when you visit the Smith Center, look up -- it's like it's laundry day and they've hung 40 or so jerseys out to dry).

We can quibble about the line, but I happen to think it's about in the right place. And I grew up idolizing Verga. I think Singler is one of the greatest warriors to ever play for Duke.

And as for who will be the next guy to have his jersey retired? I can't guess -- but I do recall a conversation with an NBA scout back in 1994 who tried to tell me that Grant Hill would be the last guy at Duke to have his jersey retired. It took seven years before Battier got his number in the rafters ... and year later, there was Jason. It's been eight years since JJ and Shelden went up and there's no strong candidate in sight. But there will be ... just no telling when.

[jimsumner]

It's the same problem with the Baseball Hall of Fame or the size of the NCAA Tournament field -- you have to draw a line somewhere and wherever you draw it, there's going to be somebody just on the other side of the line that's going to have an argument.

Right now, the line would seem to be between Mullins (the least qualified guy in the rafters) and Verga (the most qualified guy not in the rafters). But put Verga in and the Singler partisans start pushing for their man. Put him in and the Nolan Smith guys make a push for their guy .. then Jack Marin, Trajan Langdon, John Scheyer, Mark Alarie, Randy Denton ... the list of great players goes on.

If you put everybody in, it's not much of an honor. I like having honored jerseys for the guys who don't quite make the cut for retired jerseys -- and I like honoring them in the team's Hall of Fame museum, not hanging from the rafters (seriously, when you visit the Smith Center, look up -- it's like it's laundry day and they've hung 40 or so jerseys out to dry).

We can quibble about the line, but I happen to think it's about in the right place. And I grew up idolizing Verga. I think Singler is one of the greatest warriors to ever play for Duke.

And as for who will be the next guy to have his jersey retired? I can't guess -- but I do recall a conversation with an NBA scout back in 1994 who tried to tell me that Grant Hill would be the last guy at Duke to have his jersey retired. It took seven years before Battier got his number in the rafters ... and year later, there was Jason. It's been eight years since JJ and Shelden went up and there's no strong candidate in sight. But there will be ... just no telling when.

I agree about the Duke Sports Hall of Fame, which currently includes people like Bob Verga, Jack Marin, Mike Lewis, Jim Spanarkel, Gene Banks, Mark Alarie, Tommy Amaker, Randy Denton and a boatload of pre-ACC players, like Bill Werber and Ed Koffenberger. I can certainly see a place there for Singler and Smith down the road and this is not an insignificant honor.

[sagegrouse]

It's the same problem with the Baseball Hall of Fame or the size of the NCAA Tournament field -- you have to draw a line somewhere and wherever you draw it, there's going to be somebody just on the other side of the line that's going to have an argument.

Right now, the line would seem to be between Mullins (the least qualified guy in the rafters) and Verga (the most qualified guy not in the rafters). But put Verga in and the Singler partisans start pushing for their man. Put him in and the Nolan Smith guys make a push for their guy .. then Jack Marin, Trajan Langdon, John Scheyer, Mark Alarie, Randy Denton ... the list of great players goes on.

OMG, Olympic Fan! You implied that the baseball Hall of Fame is an admirable organization. This, the organization that used a 75 percent vote for admission back in the 1930s when the voters were a small fraternity of fewer than 50 scribes and still uses 75 percent when you have over 700 voters of all stripes and levels of knowledge. You don't have to have a PhD in poli sci to realize that the original criterion is wholly inapplicable today. And this, the organization that honors Bowie Kuhn, whose business and legal career ended in disgrace, and snubs his successful protagonist, Marvin Miller, one of the most innovative labor leaders of the last century.

Oh, and Jeff Mullins was on campus last week for his 50th reunion. He'll probably give you a call. He can bring by his Olympic gold medal and his NBA championship ring plus other emoluments.

Kindly, Sage

[jimsumner]

OMG, Olympic Fan! You implied that the baseball Hall of Fame is an admirable organization. This, the organization that used a 75 percent vote for admission back in the 1930s when the voters were a small fraternity of fewer than 50 scribes and still uses 75 percent when you have over 700 voters of all stripes and levels of knowledge. You don't have to have a PhD in poli sci to realize that the original criterion is wholly inapplicable today. And this, the organization that honors Bowie Kuhn, whose business and legal career ended in disgrace, and snubs his successful protagonist, Marvin Miller, one of the most innovative labor leaders of the last century.

Oh, and Jeff Mullins was on campus last week for his 50th reunion. He'll probably give you a call. He can bring by his Olympic gold medal and his NBA championship ring plus other emoluments.

Kindly, Sage

I think you're reading too much into Olympic Fan's post, which simply suggested that there is controversy over qualifications. Trust me, I've had plenty of off board conversations with Olympic Fan on the subject of the Baseball HoF and he shares many of your concerns. As do I.

[arnie]

I agree about the Duke Sports Hall of Fame, which currently includes people like Bob Verga, Jack Marin, Mike Lewis, Jim Spanarkel, Gene Banks, Mark Alarie, Tommy Amaker, Randy Denton and a boatload of pre-ACC players, like Bill Werber and Ed Koffenberger. I can certainly see a place there for Singler and Smith down the road and this is not an insignificant honor.

Except for Jim Sumner' s posts, very little mention of Gene Banks. While I don't think his jersey should be retired, the impact of his decision to come to Duke was enormous. His matriculation and great play led us to heights not seen in the prior 12 years. Without Banks, Duke's recent role in college bball may have been a lot different.

[NYBri]

Except for Jim Sumner' s posts, very little mention of Gene Banks. While I don't think his jersey should be retired, the impact of his decision to come to Duke was enormous. His matriculation and great play led us to heights not seen in the prior 12 years. Without Banks, Duke's recent role in college bball may have been a lot different.

Banks was a game changer in Duke history. He opened the door.

[jimsumner]

Except for Jim Sumner' s posts, very little mention of Gene Banks. While I don't think his jersey should be retired, the impact of his decision to come to Duke was enormous. His matriculation and great play led us to heights not seen in the prior 12 years. Without Banks, Duke's recent role in college bball may have been a lot different.

I've written that, IMO, Art Heyman and Banks were the most important recruits in Duke history, with Dawkins just behind. For two reasons. At a time when Duke basketball was at a historic low point, Banks turned down Carolina, UCLA, Notre Dame and Penn to cast his lot with Bill Foster and Duke. Secondly, he was the first high-profile inner-city African-American athlete to pick Duke at a time when the school had not shed all of its racial baggage.

And he was pretty good on the court, too.

[sagegrouse]

I think you're reading too much into Olympic Fan's post, which simply suggested that there is controversy over qualifications. Trust me, I've had plenty of off board conversations with Olympic Fan on the subject of the Baseball HoF and he shares many of your concerns. As do I.

Oh, it was just a practice rant -- I was afraid I was getting stale. -- Kindly, Sage

[greybeard]

Singler was singularly responsible for Duke's having avoided a dramatic dive after Shelden and JJ left; instead, he was the figure around which Duke coalesced on a terrific run, with imaginative play and a national championship. He played several positions, or a position without definition. when needed, he was as good an inside scorer for short spurts as all but a few that Duke has had, was a terrific scorer who did not need the ball, and played with a sense of self that bespoke an all out commitment and competence that was captivating.

Singler stands out. I saw every guy mentioned in this thread play. They all thrilled. Singler stands out. A jersey in the rafters would not capture why. He just does.

[wsb3]

Except for Jim Sumner' s posts, very little mention of Gene Banks. While I don't think his jersey should be retired, the impact of his decision to come to Duke was enormous. His matriculation and great play led us to heights not seen in the prior 12 years. Without Banks, Duke's recent role in college bball may have been a lot different.

I agree with this post. Many of us suffered through that stretch after Bubas retired until 1978. Banks was a game changer for us. Reminds me of the book, 'Forever's Team.' Love that book.