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  1. #61
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    Feb 2007
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    Quote Originally Posted by sagegrouse View Post
    Amen, brother (or sister), amen! and, for that matter, you can take out the name "Greg" and substitute "Casey Sanders," "Josh McRoberts," "Taymon Domzalski," or a bunch of other names. Some recruits do not develop to be as good as coaches or fans expect. It isn't their fault.
    I totally agree (as you can see in my response to Kedsy in another post). I was never intending to place blame/fault on the players in this thread. I was just pointing out facts. High school success doesn't always translate to college success. Paulus, to a lesser degree McRoberts, and to a greater degree Sanders, Domzalski, etc., illustrate that.

    Those guys weren't as good as scouts, recruiting "experts", and even coaches thought. That's not their fault. Recruiting isn't an exact science, and you can never tell for sure how well a kid's talents will translate as the quality of competition increases.

    Paulus looked to the world like the second coming of Bobby Hurley in high school. He was an assist machine. Clearly, he wasn't as talented as folks thought, as his lack of quickness made him a liability defensively and (combined with shaky ballhandling) made him unable to attack with the dribble and create for others against pressure defense (the infamous turning of the back to the hoop whenever a defender got near him).

    Again, that's not Paulus's fault. It's the experts' fault for misevaluating him. But the result is still a disappointing outcome for the fans. And if Jones' career follows the same path as Paulus' career, it will be disappointing for fans though in no way his fault.

  2. #62
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    Feb 2007
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    Los Angeles
    Quote Originally Posted by CDu View Post
    Not to be a debbie-downer, but I'm gonna be a debbie-downer: Greg Paulus played in the 2005 McDonald's game (9 assists, 1 turnover) and the 2005 Nike Hoops Summit (10 assists, 2 turnovers). So he had 19 assists and just 3 turnovers in 2 all star game appearances. That obviously didn't translate to the next level.

    That being said, I'm absolutely hoping that Tyus Jones isn't another Greg Paulus. Not that Paulus was a terrible player; he just wasn't nearly the PG we had hoped he'd be. We need Jones to be MUCH better than that.
    If he's not, I'll eat my hat.

    I don't think there's one aspect of the game in which Tyus isn't superior to Paulus, and in several, he's clearly superior. Possibly long-range shooting could be the only exception, but Tyus can stroke it too, and I won't be surprised if he hurts a bunch of teams who don't guard him closely enough out there.

  3. #63
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    Feb 2007
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    NC
    Quote Originally Posted by tommy View Post
    If he's not, I'll eat my hat.

    I don't think there's one aspect of the game in which Tyus isn't superior to Paulus, and in several, he's clearly superior. Possibly long-range shooting could be the only exception, but Tyus can stroke it too, and I won't be surprised if he hurts a bunch of teams who don't guard him closely enough out there.
    I am inclined to agree, and I certainly hope so. Jones definitely looks quicker, which was the biggest problem for Paulus. When Paulus had space, he was a good player; it's just that folks quickly figured out that he struggled against pressure and didn't have the quicks to shake pressure. Jones seems to have better quickness/shiftiness than Paulus. He's probably not as strong as Paulus (which could hurt him finishing through contact and on defense), but Paulus never seemed able to really use that strength to his advantage anyway.

    I definitely don't expect Jones to struggle the way Paulus did, but I'm always wary until they actually play against the big boys.

  4. #64
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    Feb 2007
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    Raleigh, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by CDu View Post
    I totally agree (as you can see in my response to Kedsy in another post). I was never intending to place blame/fault on the players in this thread. I was just pointing out facts. High school success doesn't always translate to college success. Paulus, to a lesser degree McRoberts, and to a greater degree Sanders, Domzalski, etc., illustrate that.

    Those guys weren't as good as scouts, recruiting "experts", and even coaches thought. That's not their fault. Recruiting isn't an exact science, and you can never tell for sure how well a kid's talents will translate as the quality of competition increases.

    Paulus looked to the world like the second coming of Bobby Hurley in high school. He was an assist machine. Clearly, he wasn't as talented as folks thought, as his lack of quickness made him a liability defensively and (combined with shaky ballhandling) made him unable to attack with the dribble and create for others against pressure defense (the infamous turning of the back to the hoop whenever a defender got near him).

    Again, that's not Paulus's fault. It's the experts' fault for misevaluating him. But the result is still a disappointing outcome for the fans. And if Jones' career follows the same path as Paulus' career, it will be disappointing for fans though in no way his fault.
    Paulus had an rsci ranking of 13. Tyus Jones currently comes in at #5. It would be a larger mis-evaluation if Jones ends up having a career similar to Paulus. But I certainly get the point about not letting expectations get too high. I'm actually feeling that way more about Winslow, who I really like as a player from what I've seen, but appears to have a ways to go in developing offensively. Which is perfectly normal for the majority of players not ranked in the top 5.

    Quote Originally Posted by tommy View Post
    If he's not, I'll eat my hat.

    I don't think there's one aspect of the game in which Tyus isn't superior to Paulus, and in several, he's clearly superior. Possibly long-range shooting could be the only exception, but Tyus can stroke it too, and I won't be surprised if he hurts a bunch of teams who don't guard him closely enough out there.
    Paulus' 3 pt shooting improved a great deal by his sophomore year over his freshman year.
    "Just be you. You is Enough."

  5. #65
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    Feb 2007
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    NC
    Quote Originally Posted by jipops View Post
    Paulus had an rsci ranking of 13. Tyus Jones currently comes in at #5. It would be a larger mis-evaluation if Jones ends up having a career similar to Paulus. But I certainly get the point about not letting expectations get too high. I'm actually feeling that way more about Winslow, who I really like as a player from what I've seen, but appears to have a ways to go in developing offensively. Which is perfectly normal for the majority of players not ranked in the top 5.
    Yeah, I agree. I'm only a little worried with Jones. And I wouldn't be worried at all if it weren't for Paulus. I agree that Winslow is a bit more questionable than Jones. Not only because he's a little less heralded as a recruit (in the 10-15 range), but also because he could be one of those "jack of all trades, master of none" guys that don't quite translate fully to the next level.

    But even with him, I'm not that worried. Just a little worried.

  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by CDu View Post
    I totally agree (as you can see in my response to Kedsy in another post). I was never intending to place blame/fault on the players in this thread. I was just pointing out facts. High school success doesn't always translate to college success. Paulus, to a lesser degree McRoberts, and to a greater degree Sanders, Domzalski, etc., illustrate that.

    Those guys weren't as good as scouts, recruiting "experts", and even coaches thought. That's not their fault. Recruiting isn't an exact science, and you can never tell for sure how well a kid's talents will translate as the quality of competition increases.

    Paulus looked to the world like the second coming of Bobby Hurley in high school. He was an assist machine. Clearly, he wasn't as talented as folks thought, as his lack of quickness made him a liability defensively and (combined with shaky ballhandling) made him unable to attack with the dribble and create for others against pressure defense (the infamous turning of the back to the hoop whenever a defender got near him).

    Again, that's not Paulus's fault. It's the experts' fault for misevaluating him. But the result is still a disappointing outcome for the fans. And if Jones' career follows the same path as Paulus' career, it will be disappointing for fans though in no way his fault.
    Exactly...all I read was that Matt Jones was a great shooter. He gets to Duke and can't hit anything. I mean he looked like he couldn't even see the basket with some of his shots. Not every kid has a game that translate from high school to college.

  7. #67
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    Feb 2007
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    Raleigh, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by CDu View Post
    Yeah, I agree. I'm only a little worried with Jones. And I wouldn't be worried at all if it weren't for Paulus. I agree that Winslow is a bit more questionable than Jones. Not only because he's a little less heralded as a recruit (in the 10-15 range), but also because he could be one of those "jack of all trades, master of none" guys that don't quite translate fully to the next level.

    But even with him, I'm not that worried. Just a little worried.
    I'm not worried about Winslow either. But that's probably because I don't see him being a true impact player until his sophomore or junior year. But by then he could be a terrific weapon.

  8. #68
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    Feb 2007
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    NC
    Quote Originally Posted by jipops View Post
    I'm not worried about Winslow either. But that's probably because I don't see him being a true impact player until his sophomore or junior year. But by then he could be a terrific weapon.
    That's a fair point. If one is expecting Winslow to be Michael Kidd-Gilchrist 2.0 as a freshman, they may be setting themselves up for disappointment. If they are expecting him to be serviceable as a freshman and make a big impact as a sophomore or junior, they probably have the right mindset going in.

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by johnb View Post
    Having followed recruiting gossip and watched the all star games:

    Aside from the allure of Austin (with local heroism, an unusually good returning team--for Texas, and Durant's ghost), Turner would likely not start at Duke. He'd be a great 6th man (or co-6th man along with Quinn), and stranger things could happen: maybe he could bump Amile out of the starting 5, and presumably they would play comparable minutes with Myles getting some of Marshall's center minutes when Jahlil is off the floor). Maybe we'd go 3 shortish and two tallish players (TJ, QC, RS, MT, and JO), but I'm assuming that with a great PG and great C, a big priority is a having a strong wing on the floor. Since Winslow has been so impressive, I just don't see how he doesn't start. If so, we are unlikely to keep 4 freshmen on the floor at the same time. If Myles wants to be featured and be a top 5 pick in 2015, his all star experience might have made him concerned that he is simply not as good as Jahlil and that a year of playing and practicing alongside him would only underscore that difference when it came time to the 2015 draft.
    I think that Turner would almost certainly start at PF and he would probably get 25+ minutes a game (~same minutes as Jahlil). He would be Jahlil's backup at center for 5-10 along with Marshall and split the game minutes at PF with Amile. There's no way you would keep him off the floor with his height and athleticism. Turner is probably 3-4 inches taller than Amile (I don't think Amile is actually his listed 6'9" - more like 6'7"). Not only that, but he has a solid three point stroke as well. He would solve the spacing problem that we will have with Amile and Jabari.

    I actually believe that Duke is the best fit for Turner as far as available space on a good title contending team. He's the perfect complement to what we already have. If he goes to Texas, he'll play just as much, but for a much worse team. KU is good, but more of a logjam with Alexander, Ellis, Lucas, and Oubre, and if I'm Turner, I would rather play with an assist-machine like Tyus (or Quinn) than Tharpe (unless he wants tips on how to pick up older married women). I think the reason Turner probably won't end up here is because it's too far away from his family, but we'll see.

  10. #70
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    Feb 2007
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    Raleigh, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by FireOgilvie View Post

    I actually believe that Duke is the best fit for Turner as far as available space on a good title contending team. He's the perfect complement to what we already have. If he goes to Texas, he'll play just as much, but for a much worse team.
    Can't really agree with you there. Texas brings everybody back and with Turner they're a legit title contender.

  11. #71
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    Feb 2007
    Quote Originally Posted by jipops View Post
    Can't really agree with you there. Texas brings everybody back and with Turner they're a legit title contender.
    Did I miss some news in the Coaching Carousel thread?

  12. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by jipops View Post
    Can't really agree with you there. Texas brings everybody back and with Turner they're a legit title contender.
    A legit title contender? They might be a contender for 2nd place in the Big 12, but that's about it. Rick Barnes couldn't even get past the 2nd (now "3rd") round of the Tournament with Kevin Durant and DJ Augustin. They finished 11-7 in the Big 12 this year (tied for 3rd). KU will win the Big 12 title again for the 11th straight year. I believe Duke will absolutely be a much better team than Texas next year and out of the teams Turner is looking at, Texas is maybe the 3rd best option (although they could even be 4th behind SMU with Mudiay).

  13. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by jipops View Post
    Can't really agree with you there. Texas brings everybody back and with Turner they're a legit title contender.
    In addition to my previous post, I would say if Turner comes to Duke or KU, that team will become the pre-season number 1. Not true for Texas.

  14. #74
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    Feb 2007
    Location
    Nashville, TN
    Quote Originally Posted by Duvall View Post
    Did I miss some news in the Coaching Carousel thread?
    So wish I had sporks. This is hilarious.

  15. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by FireOgilvie View Post
    A legit title contender? They might be a contender for 2nd place in the Big 12, but that's about it. Rick Barnes couldn't even get past the 2nd (now "3rd") round of the Tournament with Kevin Durant and DJ Augustin. They finished 11-7 in the Big 12 this year (tied for 3rd). KU will win the Big 12 title again for the 11th straight year. I believe Duke will absolutely be a much better team than Texas next year and out of the teams Turner is looking at, Texas is maybe the 3rd best option (although they could even be 4th behind SMU with Mudiay).
    Texas will be "good" by default because they are the only team in the conference that brings everyone back. They fell off a bit in the 2nd half of the year, Isaiah Taylor hit the freshman wall pretty hard. I wouldn't pencil them in as Final 4 favorites or anything, but they should hover around the Top 10 most of the season (I expect them to land Turner).

  16. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by FireOgilvie View Post
    KU is good, but more of a logjam with Alexander, Ellis, Lucas, and Oubre, and if I'm Turner, I would rather play with an assist-machine like Tyus (or Quinn) than Tharpe (unless he wants tips on how to pick up older married women).
    Oubre's presence will have no affect on Turner, Oubre will take Wiggins's minutes, and Lucas is a career backup. The guys Turner could be concerned about are Jamari Traylor (3rd year in the system) and Hunter Mickelson (transfer from Arkansas). But those two are easily less talented, so I would think that after the November jitters, Turner would get the same amount of minutes as Cliff. He might not start, but would get plenty of playing time. IMO he would be a fantastic fit in the hi-lo with Alexander.

    And God bless DBR, the only place left that thinks Perry Ellis is a great player. He will undoubtedly start, but Turner would get crunch time minutes due to his defense, and Perry couldn't guard my niece at this point. It's most likely moot, because as I said before, Turner is likely Austin-bound.


    Side note... I will send you $5 if Tharpe is on the team in July.

  17. #77
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    Feb 2007
    Quote Originally Posted by TexHawk View Post
    Side note... I will send you $5 if Tharpe is on the team in July.
    Who's going to be your point guard next season, TexHawk? Frankamp? Whom do you prefer at this point?

  18. #78
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Quote Originally Posted by TexHawk View Post
    It's most likely moot, because as I said before, Turner is likely Austin-bound.
    Man, what if Duke gets him? We have the last in-home tomorrow according to twitter.

    Duke's been on a hot streak lately of getting recruits.

    Jones/Okafor --> Winslow --> Kennard --> Obi. That's 5 in a row, soon to be 6 in a row with Jeter. I would argue it's already 6 in a row by counting Grayson because I'm not sure if Duke wanted Looney or Travis all that badly. The guys we've really wanted badly, we've gotten lately. Let's see if Myles breaks that streak.

  19. #79
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    Dec 2007
    Location
    Cary, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by CDu View Post
    That's a fair point. If one is expecting Winslow to be Michael Kidd-Gilchrist 2.0 as a freshman, they may be setting themselves up for disappointment. If they are expecting him to be serviceable as a freshman and make a big impact as a sophomore or junior, they probably have the right mindset going in.
    Totally agree. I think those who are penciling Winslow in as a starter next year are going to be disappointed. From everything I know about Duke basketball, it is far more likely that we start the season with a Jones-Cook-Sulaimon backcourt than Jones-Sulaimon-Winslow.

  20. #80
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    Nov 2011
    Location
    Macon, GA
    Quote Originally Posted by Troublemaker View Post
    Man, what if Duke gets him? We have the last in-home tomorrow according to twitter.

    Duke's been on a hot streak lately of getting recruits.

    Jones/Okafor --> Winslow --> Kennard --> Obi. That's 5 in a row, soon to be 6 in a row with Jeter. I would argue it's already 6 in a row by counting Grayson because I'm not sure if Duke wanted Looney or Travis all that badly. The guys we've really wanted badly, we've gotten lately. Let's see if Myles breaks that streak.
    I don't know about the rest of Duke fans but I wanted Reid Travis... badly. More than I wanted Allen, Kennard, and Obi. And that's not a rip on those guys. If Travis committed to Duke it's highly unlikely we show any interest in Obi at all.

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