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  1. #21
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    Feb 2007
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    Nashville, TN
    Quote Originally Posted by LobstersPinchPinch View Post
    I'll take Coach Cal's last 5 years over anyone's. He appears able to win with any team - a very impressive ability to adapt his coaching to the strengths and weaknesses of each team.

    I don't care for him personally, but professionally I don't think there's a better coach out there.
    Of course you do. It must be the feedback that the AD gives Calipari at the end of every year. Something that, according to you, is lacking at Duke.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by FerryFor50 View Post
    I'm personally in the camp of "the NCAA doesn't really prove much at all unless you win it." Final Fours? Elite 8? They're still falling short of the title. No one really remembers who lost the tourny.
    Eh - I don't know about this. I can't speak for anyone other than myself, but I've often been perfectly happy with our tournament performance in years where we didn't win. Last year's a great example - we had a deep run before losing to the eventual champ. I don't view the NCAAT as a win it all or don't bother proposition.

    Also, I bet if you asked some casual bball fans who Florida Gulf Coast is, they'll remember their run in '13 - it's not diminished by the fact that they didn't win it all.

  3. #23

    One and done

    Just one point about Kentucky's one-and-done model.

    It is obviously working -- even with the 2013 meltdown (and to some degree that was due to Noel's injury).

    But it's not like it's a model that everybody can follow. Can you imagine the new Wake Forest coach coming in and saying "Ah ha! I'm not going to build a team ... I'm going to go out and recruit five of the best 15 prospects in the country and every year and we'll win with them"

    There are only so many freshmen with the talent to come in and win at that level ... Cal has been able to consistently get the number he needs. But how many more does that leave for the next guy?

    I guess it's theoretically possible for two or maybe even three teams a year to get that one-and-done load. If Kansas could have kept Embid healthy to go with Selden and Wiggins, they'd have been close.

    Duke has had an increasing number one-and-dones -- Irving, Rivers, probably Parker and likely Okafor next year, but even if we start three freshmen next year (Okafor, Jones, Winslow are possible) that's still a bit short of the Kentucky model.

    Cal has assembled a successful system ... give him that. But it's not an easy one to follow.

  4. #24
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    Feb 2008
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    Raleigh, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by Olympic Fan View Post
    Just one point about Kentucky's one-and-done model.

    It is obviously working -- even with the 2013 meltdown (and to some degree that was due to Noel's injury).

    But it's not like it's a model that everybody can follow. Can you imagine the new Wake Forest coach coming in and saying "Ah ha! I'm not going to build a team ... I'm going to go out and recruit five of the best 15 prospects in the country and every year and we'll win with them"

    There are only so many freshmen with the talent to come in and win at that level ... Cal has been able to consistently get the number he needs. But how many more does that leave for the next guy?

    I guess it's theoretically possible for two or maybe even three teams a year to get that one-and-done load. If Kansas could have kept Embid healthy to go with Selden and Wiggins, they'd have been close.

    Duke has had an increasing number one-and-dones -- Irving, Rivers, probably Parker and likely Okafor next year, but even if we start three freshmen next year (Okafor, Jones, Winslow are possible) that's still a bit short of the Kentucky model.

    Cal has assembled a successful system ... give him that. But it's not an easy one to follow.
    Agreed. And as we're starting to see in the past few years, Cal isn't getting every recruit he wants like he seemingly was early in his model.

    The OADs are going to other schools now, as they see the benefit of starring on their own - Zona, Duke, etc.

    This will continue to eat into Cal's stable and eventually he'll have to actually start *coaching* and not relying on superior talent to figure it out before the end of the season.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by FerryFor50 View Post
    This will continue to eat into Cal's stable and eventually he'll have to actually start *coaching* and not relying on superior talent to figure it out before the end of the season.
    You're the one who listed his achievements including his Memphis years, right? Do you think he relied on superior talent then? Yeah, he had Derrick Rose that one year, but the rest of those guys weren't particularly highly rated recruits. And he succeeded at UMass, too, with even less talent. Putting aside Cal's seemingly shady recruiting practices (which he reputedly practiced all the way back to Lou Roe at UMass), he does appear to be a pretty good coach.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Matches View Post
    Eh - I don't know about this. I can't speak for anyone other than myself, but I've often been perfectly happy with our tournament performance in years where we didn't win. Last year's a great example - we had a deep run before losing to the eventual champ. I don't view the NCAAT as a win it all or don't bother proposition.

    Also, I bet if you asked some casual bball fans who Florida Gulf Coast is, they'll remember their run in '13 - it's not diminished by the fact that they didn't win it all.
    I totally agree with this entire post. If the only thing that mattered was winning the championship, I don't think I'd even bother to watch.

  7. #27

    Great Post

    Quote Originally Posted by Olympic Fan View Post
    Just one point about Kentucky's one-and-done model.

    It is obviously working -- even with the 2013 meltdown (and to some degree that was due to Noel's injury).

    But it's not like it's a model that everybody can follow. Can you imagine the new Wake Forest coach coming in and saying "Ah ha! I'm not going to build a team ... I'm going to go out and recruit five of the best 15 prospects in the country and every year and we'll win with them"

    There are only so many freshmen with the talent to come in and win at that level ... Cal has been able to consistently get the number he needs. But how many more does that leave for the next guy?

    I guess it's theoretically possible for two or maybe even three teams a year to get that one-and-done load. If Kansas could have kept Embid healthy to go with Selden and Wiggins, they'd have been close.

    Duke has had an increasing number one-and-dones -- Irving, Rivers, probably Parker and likely Okafor next year, but even if we start three freshmen next year (Okafor, Jones, Winslow are possible) that's still a bit short of the Kentucky model.

    Cal has assembled a successful system ... give him that. But it's not an easy one to follow.
    Cal's system is not going to work every year however when it does work it works very well. It depends on getting top talent and also having a system that not overly sophisticated so that frosh can excel in it. I don't think he gets enough credit for figuring out how to maximize the strengths of each team, which is essentially new every year.

    There are not that many schools and coaches that can attract the one and dones each and every year. Cal at KY can.

    This is the world that the NBA and NCAA have created. Few places to play after high school and no real accountability on academics. I can not fault him for taking advantage of it.

    SoCal

  8. #28
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    greater New Orleans area
    Quote Originally Posted by Kedsy View Post
    You're the one who listed his achievements including his Memphis years, right? Do you think he relied on superior talent then? Yeah, he had Derrick Rose that one year, but the rest of those guys weren't particularly highly rated recruits. And he succeeded at UMass, too, with even less talent. Putting aside Cal's seemingly shady recruiting practices (which he reputedly practiced all the way back to Lou Roe at UMass), he does appear to be a pretty good coach.
    Unfortunately, I have to agree. I don't like it when cheaters win, but it has taken some coaching to get this team where it is.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by NashvilleDevil View Post
    Of course you do. It must be the feedback that the AD gives Calipari at the end of every year. Something that, according to you, is lacking at Duke.
    Maybe Calipari is just a damn good recruiter, motivator, and has strategies that better ensure consistent success in the tournament.

  10. #30

    Just the Facts

    UK has been to THREE final fours in 4 years.
    Duke has been to ONE final four in the past decade.[/B][/B]

    No question which program is on the decline, and which one is back on top.

    Bigger question is what will it take for Duke to get to FINAL FOUR again.

    For all the excuses on blaming YOUTH for this team's failures, the bottom line is that Slimy Calimari has won with freshmen at UK.

  11. #31
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Nashville, TN
    Quote Originally Posted by kybluedevil View Post
    UK has been to THREE final fours in 4 years.
    Duke has been to ONE final four in the past decade.[/B][/B]

    No question which program is on the decline, and which one is back on top.

    Bigger question is what will it take for Duke to get to FINAL FOUR again.

    For all the excuses on blaming YOUTH for this team's failures, the bottom line is that Slimy Calimari has won with freshmen at UK.
    FACT:

    In the last 5 years both schools have 1 national title.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by LobstersPinchPinch View Post
    Maybe Calipari is just a damn good recruiter, motivator, and has strategies that better ensure consistent success in the tournament.
    Maybe. More likely there is no "strateg[y] that better ensure[s] consistent success in the tournament." Kentucky came a whisker away from losing each of his last three games in this tournament (and didn't win the first one by much, either). You think that last shot by Wichita State missed because of some super secret Calipari strategy, or because good shots sometimes miss? If it had gone in instead of missing, would it have made Cal any worse of a coach, or made his strategies any less reliable?

    Sometimes people look for connections that simply aren't there. If they look hard enough, though, they're sure they see the connections. But they're probably just deluding themselves.

  13. #33
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    Feb 2008
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    Raleigh, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by Kedsy View Post
    You're the one who listed his achievements including his Memphis years, right? Do you think he relied on superior talent then? Yeah, he had Derrick Rose that one year, but the rest of those guys weren't particularly highly rated recruits. And he succeeded at UMass, too, with even less talent. Putting aside Cal's seemingly shady recruiting practices (which he reputedly practiced all the way back to Lou Roe at UMass), he does appear to be a pretty good coach.
    I did cite his Memphis years. And I still think he was more of a talent collector than a coach.

    Cal coached at Memphis for 9 seasons. He was able to collect talent there:

    2001 - Dajuan Wagner from Camden (NJ) (#3 RSCI) http://statsheet.com/bhsb/players/dajuan-wagner
    2003 - Sean Banks (#33 RSCI) http://statsheet.com/bhsb/players/sean-banks
    2005 - Shawne Williams from Memphis (TN) (#27 RSCI) http://statsheet.com/bhsb/players/shawne-williams
    2005 - Chris Douglas-Roberts from Detroit (MI) (#41 RSCI) http://statsheet.com/bhsb/players/chris-douglas-roberts
    2005 - Antonio Anderson from Lynn (MA) (#66 RSCI) http://statsheet.com/bhsb/players/antonio-anderson
    2007 - Derrick Rose from Chicago (IL) (#5 RSCI) http://statsheet.com/bhsb/players/derrick-rose
    2008 - Tyreke Evans from Aston (PA) (#3 RSCI) http://statsheet.com/bhsb/players/tyreke-evans

    Let's take a look at his record at Memphis...

    He inherited a Memphis team that had gone 15-16 the previous year and went 21-15. That team featured a sophomore Earl Barron (future NBA big), Kelly Wise and #68 RSCI PG Scooter McFadgon. Went to the NIT.

    That very next year, he recruited DeJuan Wagner, the #3 player in the country, out of NJ. How did a 2nd year guy at a Conference USA school end up with the #3 recruit in the country? Oh wait... it's John Calipari.

    As a freshman, Wagner averaged 21 ppg. Left for the NBA after one season. Memphis finished 27-9 with an NIT championship.

    In 2002-2003, Memphis went 23-7 and lost in the first round of the NCAA. That team featured a senior NBA big Earl Barron and got pretty lucky in finding unranked Rodney Carney, who stayed 4 years and became an NBA quality player - he'd be key in the future Memphis tourny runs.

    In 2003-2004, Memphis went 22-8 and lost in the second round of the NCAA tournament. They were led by #33 freshman Sean Banks (17ppg as a freshman), Rodney Carney, and Antonio Burks (who was not recruited by Cal).

    In 2004-2005, Memphis went 22-16 and missed the NCAAs, lost in the NIT, despite returning Sean Banks, Rodney Carney and landing Darius Washington (15.4 ppg, #23 in the nation) and Joey Dorsey (who was another unranked recruit that turned into a NBA big). Only guy they lost was Antonio Burks. You could argue that Memphis underachieved that season.

    The next season (2005-2006) is when Cal finally had a worthwhile season. Is it any coincidence that was the year Chris Douglas Roberts and Shawne Williams arrived? Memphis went 33-4 and featured a senior Rodney Carney (17ppg), Joey Dorsey, Shawne Williams (#27), Antonio Anderson (#66), Robert Dozier (#83), CDR (#41)... that was the first "major" recruiting class at Memphis with 4 top 100 players - http://statsheet.com/bhsb/recruiting_class/2005. They made the Elite 8 as the 1 seed.

    2006-2007 was more success. Memphis went 33-4 again, but didn't bring in many top recruits. They relied on the guys that stuck around. Made the Elite 8 again as a 1 seed.

    2007-2008 was the bread and butter year - that's when he had Derrick Rose *and* senior and junior contributions from Joey Dorsey, CDR, Antonio Anderson and Robert Dozier. Went 38-2 and lost in the finals. However, two of those players were known later to have some SAT "issues." So, technically, Calipari's best season didn't actually exist.

    2008-2009 was another 1 seed, but also another early exit. Lost in the sweet 16. 33-4 record, #3 recruit.

    Then Cal bolted before the sketchiness of the OAD model caught up with him.

    So in his 9 years at Memphis:

    - 3 NIT appearances
    - at least 9 top 100 recruits, with 3 top 5 recruits (at a school without much tradition/success at recruiting)
    - 1 Final Four/Championship appearance
    - Two Elite 8s (as a 1 seed, which can be considered as coming up short)
    - One sweet 16 as a 1 seed, which is definitely coming up short
    - two first weekend exits in the NCAA

    Not a terrible job at Memphis, but when you factor in the vacated wins, shady recruiting tactics, no national championships etc... then I'd call it a wash.

    Cal's biggest success at UMass didn't come until Lou Roe and Marcus Camby showed up. But those successes? Poof. Vacated. Before that, yea, he was a decent coach who worked with what he had. But then he learned along the way that you don't win big unless you get the best guys.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by kybluedevil View Post
    UK has been to THREE final fours in 4 years.
    Duke has been to ONE final four in the past decade.

    No question which program is on the decline, and which one is back on top.
    Your facts don't show anything about either program's decline or being back anywhere. Not too long ago, Butler went to two straight national championship games. Did that mean the Butler "program" was "on top" while UK had only been to one Final Four in its previous 13 season? In the same four year span you mention, Kentucky lost 9 or more games three times, amassing a record of 116-33 (.779 winning pct). In the final AP polls during that period, UK was ranked #1 once, #15 once, and unranked twice -- the past two years, as a matter of fact. Does that sound like a program that's "on top"?

    In comparison, Duke lost 9 or more games just one time, for a record of 115-22 (.839 winning pct). In the final AP poll, Duke has ranked in the top 7 all four years (#2, #5, #6, #7). So why do you think the advance or decline of a program hinges on short-term NCAA tournament success rather than those other facts?

    NCAA tournament success is fun and everyone wants to do it, but it doesn't say much if anything about a program. That's especially true given Calipari's system relies so heavily on newcomers each year. He's not really building a program, he's merely fielding a new team every season.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by FerryFor50 View Post
    Cal's biggest success at UMass didn't come until Lou Roe and Marcus Camby showed up. But those successes? Poof. Vacated. Before that, yea, he was a decent coach who worked with what he had. But then he learned along the way that you don't win big unless you get the best guys.
    I think you're confusing shady recruiting tactics with coaching ability. And you also seem to be confusing successful recruiting with a one-and-done strategy. In all his years at Memphis, he had three OADs, right? And by your count, he had 9 top 100 recruits in 9 years. That's nothing, lots of people have done that or way better but haven't been as successful at winning as Calipari was at Memphis or UMass. I mean, Lou Roe and Marcus Camby certainly put UMass on the map, but they weren't top five recruits or anything and they weren't one-and-done. You're not arguing that the only way to show you're a good coach is to win with no talent at all, right? Coach K hasn't had any success without great recruits either.

  16. #36
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    Raleigh, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by Kedsy View Post
    I think you're confusing shady recruiting tactics with coaching ability. And you also seem to be confusing successful recruiting with a one-and-done strategy. In all his years at Memphis, he had three OADs, right? And by your count, he had 9 top 100 recruits in 9 years. That's nothing, lots of people have done that or way better but haven't been as successful at winning as Calipari was at Memphis or UMass. I mean, Lou Roe and Marcus Camby certainly put UMass on the map, but they weren't top five recruits or anything and they weren't one-and-done. You're not arguing that the only way to show you're a good coach is to win with no talent at all, right? Coach K hasn't had any success without great recruits either.
    Cal's *real* success didn't come until Derrick Rose and Tyreke Evans. Before that, he was on the same level as many mid-major coaches - relatively successful in weaker conferences, little tournament success.

    My argument is this: Cal couldn't win meaningful games without elite OADs (no Final Fours at Memphis until Derrick Rose). He couldn't get OADs at Memphis until he started using shady recruiting tactics. Thus, Cal only became an "elite" coach when he started recruiting OAD players, which took a shady and NCAA-violating method. That's what separates him from guys like K, Izzo, etc. He can win, but only after he's done things the "wrong" way.

  17. #37

    I don't Cal

    Quote Originally Posted by NashvilleDevil View Post
    FACT:

    In the last 5 years both schools have 1 national title.
    views his teams in 5 year increments.

    SoCal

  18. #38

    Too much emphasis on UK vs Duke

    Last time I checked, there were 4 teams still in the tournament and all have a reasonable chance of winning. Only UK is going the one and done route while UCONN is going with two point guards and a tough interior defense, Florida seems to be the most complete team while Wisconsin is using its size very well. It is my view that Duke just didn't have the players to compete with this group of 4. Jabari was clearly a star but we were slightly built at center and small forwards and our guards were good but not in the mold of Napier or Wilbekin. Did we fail to develop some of our players? Maybe. Did we fail to recruit a lineup that could compete at this level? Probably. Since our defense was the main culprit, could we have adapted to a pack line or some other method that would have worked better? Doubtful with our roster.

    I grudgingly give Calipari his due even though I dislike him and his approach. His teams are very competitive.

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by FerryFor50 View Post
    Cal's *real* success didn't come until Derrick Rose and Tyreke Evans. Before that, he was on the same level as many mid-major coaches - relatively successful in weaker conferences, little tournament success.

    My argument is this: Cal couldn't win meaningful games without elite OADs (no Final Fours at Memphis until Derrick Rose). He couldn't get OADs at Memphis until he started using shady recruiting tactics. Thus, Cal only became an "elite" coach when he started recruiting OAD players, which took a shady and NCAA-violating method. That's what separates him from guys like K, Izzo, etc. He can win, but only after he's done things the "wrong" way.
    First of all, from what I hear Cal has *always* used shady recruiting tactics, he didn't start doing it with Derrick Rose.

    More importantly, in the two years before Derrick Rose came to Memphis, Calipari went 66-8 and made the Elite Eight both years. The idea that he could do that without winning any "meaningful games" is kind of silly.

    I understand getting to the Final Four is better than "only" getting to the Elite Eight, but in 2006 he lost in the Elite Eight by 5 points to 2-seed UCLA. In that game, Memphis -- a team that shot over 35% from three-range over the course of the season -- shot 2 for 17 from three-point-land. If Cal's team had shot 4 for 17 (still an awful 23.5%) they might have won the game. In 2007, Memphis got clobbered by a really good Ohio State team in the Elite Eight, but Ohio State only beat a mediocre Tennessee team by a point in the previous round. If Tennessee had pulled the upset and then Memphis had beaten them (which was likely) and gone to the Final Four, would that have made Cal a better coach?

    Measuring coaches or teams by Final Fours or even championships without looking at the entire resume is shortsighted.

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Saratoga2 View Post
    It is my view that Duke just didn't have the players to compete with this group of 4.
    Clearly Duke had some issues with defense, communication, losing focus, etc. But Duke had one of the most talented rosters in the country. In other words, whatever problems we had, "not hav[ing] the players to compete" wasn't one of them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Saratoga2 View Post
    Did we fail to recruit a lineup that could compete at this level? Probably.
    You're kidding, right? You think the problem was Duke didn't recruit well enough?

    In the four years leading to this season, Duke recruited four (4) top ten classes (according to RSCI) -- that's a top 10 class in every applicable season. In the same four year period, Florida, Connecticut, and Wisconsin combined to bring in one (1) top ten class among them. Please explain to me exactly how Duke didn't recruit well enough?

    Quote Originally Posted by Saratoga2 View Post
    Since our defense was the main culprit, could we have adapted to a pack line or some other method that would have worked better? Doubtful with our roster.
    Why do you think our team would have performed any better implementing the packline than we did implementing Coach K's pressure man-to-man?

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