athletic scholarships

[tecumseh]

I was listening to NPR a few months back and they had a woman on who was a director of a large university admissions office. To her credit she remarked about a meeting she had with potential parents and how one father had thrown her for a loop. She explained how her school does not give much academic merit aid and that this is so there is plenty of money for the students who need it the most. A man than asked her if her school gave athletic scholarships too which she replied, "Why yes certainly we have quite a few". The man then asked if they are given on the basis of merit to which the answer of course was yes. The man than said his kids were nerds, great students but lousy athletes so why is it OK to give merit aid to girl who can pitch a softball, or a boy who can pole vault but not kids who are great at chemistry or creative writing. She did not have an answer.

I have thought about this and think there is no way to square this circle, non revenue athletic scholarships are highly questionable at a school that touts itself as one of the top academic institutions particularly one that gives very little academic merit aid.

[Olympic Fan]

I think your conclusion is 180 degrees off base. The answer to the dilemma suggested above is not to quit athletic scholarships, but to provide merit scholarships for other talents -- math skill, music ability, dance talent, etc.

The other answer is to suggest that you consider the free enterprise system. We give athletic scholarships because in the first half of this century, college football got so popular and so profitable that schools were bidding against each other for the best players -- hence the NCAA standardized the acceptable college grant-in-aid.

Today, we've warped the Adam Smith aspects of it. We give the same scholarships in football and men's basketball -- sports that CAN and often do make money -- that we give in lacrosse, soccer, tennis, baseball and almost all women's sports, which don't generate any revenue.

Today, Mike Krzyzewski's basketball program pays the freight for almost the entire Duke athletic program. Critics are always suggesting that the players who generate this largess should be compensated far more than their standard scholarship. Under current federal law (Title IX) I don't see how you could do this without equally compensation all women's scholarship athletes who participate in sports that don't generate money.

To get back to your original question, the real answer is for students with other areas of merit to generate their own sources of income. Maybe drama clubs could do a better job of staging and promoting productions to raise money for scholarships. Music departments could sponsor concerts and dance bands to generate scholarship money.

As for science and math, I know when I was in school, there was plenty of federal scholarship money for exceptional students in those fields. Has this dried up?

[The Gordog]

As for science and math, I know when I was in school, there was plenty of federal scholarship money for exceptional students in those fields. Has this dried up?

Sadly, yes, I belive so.

[mapei]

>To get back to your original question, the real answer is for students with other areas of merit to generate their own sources of income.

Now there's a thought. Come to think of it, why give scholarships to anyone? If the mommies and daddies of financially disadvantaged students couldn't succeed in the marketplace for a high income, why should those who could succeed subsidize them? Adam Smith rocks.

I beg to differ.

More seriously, I have long had problems with athletic scholarships. Sports should be secondary to academics at universities IMO, and what scholarship money can be found should be given to needy kids with academic promise. Period. If they are also good athletes, terrific.

[hurleyfor3]

As for science and math, I know when I was in school, there was plenty of federal scholarship money for exceptional students in those fields. Has this dried up?

Duke used to offer several math scholarships to in-state students -- something like 12 or 13 a year through the late 1980s. Four years, full tuition. They're down to one or two, or I guess I should say, 1½ ± sin (π/6).

Not sure why successful entrepreneurs couldn't pick up the slack.

[dukie8]

I was listening to NPR a few months back and they had a woman on who was a director of a large university admissions office. To her credit she remarked about a meeting she had with potential parents and how one father had thrown her for a loop. She explained how her school does not give much academic merit aid and that this is so there is plenty of money for the students who need it the most. A man than asked her if her school gave athletic scholarships too which she replied, "Why yes certainly we have quite a few". The man then asked if they are given on the basis of merit to which the answer of course was yes. The man than said his kids were nerds, great students but lousy athletes so why is it OK to give merit aid to girl who can pitch a softball, or a boy who can pole vault but not kids who are great at chemistry or creative writing. She did not have an answer.

I have thought about this and think there is no way to square this circle, non revenue athletic scholarships are highly questionable at a school that touts itself as one of the top academic institutions particularly one that gives very little academic merit aid.

if his kids were so academically outstanding, then they should have been able to get ab duke scholarships. i seem to recall 15-20 per year but it looks like only 9 went out this year:

http://www.dukenews.duke.edu/2007/05/ABDuke_07.html

getting back to your originally point, yes, it makes no sense that there is A LOT more financial aid for athletic than academic achievers at most universities. i also completely do not understand why football only can give out full scholarships. football scholarships should be dialed back to 25 and people should be given 1/4s and 1/2s like they get in every other sport other than basketball. if they come from poor backgrounds, then they can work the financial aid office or take out student loans for the balance just like someone who is smart (but a nerd) and from the same type of background.

[tecumseh]

It is interesting when you look at the top universities, Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Penn, U of Chicago, MIT, Wash U St. Louis they do not give out athletic scholarships. Stanford and Duke do.

Olympic Fan you are 180 degrees off base not everything is about generating income. That is the whole point of academic institutions, studying 15th century English musical instruments or the mating behavior of lemurs in Madagascar is not about generating income. Generate their own source of income what are you talking about?

[Lavabe]

That is the whole point of academic institutions, studying 15th century English musical instruments or the mating behavior of lemurs in Madagascar is not about generating income.

HEY... watch what you say about those lemurs!!

Cheers,
Lavabe

[tecumseh]

You probably know Duke is a top center for lemur study.

[Lavabe]

You probably know Duke is a top center for lemur study.

My avatar is laughing:
http://web.conservation.org/ImageCac...v1/varwail.mp3
The vocalization comes from the Conservation International web site.
Cheers,
Lavabe

[johnb]

Football (+/- basketball) makes the money. Football gives many scholarships, and they're all to men. Title IX mandates equal funding. That requires a lot of softball and women's golf. It would be weird to only have the only male scholarship athletes be football and bball players, so the unequal distribution (women > men) is spread over all of the nonrevenue sports.

Why do this? Alumni and students love it, and that leads to donations and esprit de corps. The Ivies are a special case, and they maintain esprit de corps by playing each other (Duke would kick a#ss against Brown or Harvard), but I don't think Duke has any intention of having a campus attitude akin to that at U of Chicago, MIT, or Caltech.

Why not give academic merit schollys? Duke does, and even though they give only dozen or two per year, those students are dramatically overrepresented when it comes to getting Rhodes Scholarships and becoming academic/professional superstars after they graduate. The AB Dukies are not just students who get in Harvard or Caltech, but they tend to be students who those schools target and recruit. That may be why we only got 9 AB Dukies this year--we probably got a low yield because of the competition with Ivies and with the other schools that give free rides to academic superstars. It might be useful to expand the group to 50 or 100 stars, but my hunch is that the administration feels that very top group might feel the award is cheapened if it expands (ie, the yield would drop) or that there isn't an obvious or huge difference among the hundreds of academic admits just below the AB Duke level, so why spend the money when people are willing to pay it. That isn't to say there isn't significant overlap or that some regular admits don't outshine some of the AB Dukies, but if you look at the resumes of the people who win Rhodes, Marshalls, Gates, etc, most won the AB Duke scholarship first.

[mapei]

They could certainly give academic scholarships other than the ABDukes, even partial ones, and still retain the prestige of the ABDukes. I'm frankly shocked to read that Duke only gives a dozen or so per year.

[tecumseh]

You can talk about espirit de corps, alumni etc but I don't buy it. I really don't see how you can justify giving over 10 times the number of merit athletic scholarships than merit academic scholarships. The whole issue of merit aid is pretty controversial but talking to Duke admissions people I think they really wish they had a bunch to give out. Wash U in St. Louis has moved up the US News and World Report rankings (for what that worth) and they give out a lot of merit aid and snatch students who would have "normally" gone to schools like Duke.

[Lavabe]

You can talk about espirit de corps, alumni etc but I don't buy it. I really don't see how you can justify giving over 10 times the number of merit athletic scholarships than merit academic scholarships. The whole issue of merit aid is pretty controversial but talking to Duke admissions people I think they really wish they had a bunch to give out. Wash U in St. Louis has moved up the US News and World Report rankings (for what that worth) and they give out a lot of merit aid and snatch students who would have "normally" gone to schools like Duke.

What makes you assume that they would "normally" have gone to Duke?

True, both universities have students who apply to both. Having been at both schools, I guess I could turn it around and argue that Duke snatches students who would "normally" have gone to schools like WashU.

Funny, I thought WashU's sudden increase in merit scholarships was done to compete with fellow DIII research institute Emory (which has a great deal of merit-based scholarships). Emory, by the way, is now offering more need-based grants (in lieu of loans), sort of on the model of Duke. What goes around ...

Cheers,
Lavabe

[tecumseh]

Good point you don't know where they would have gone. But from what I have seen Wash U was very focused on moving up in the US News and World Report ranking and used much merit aid just to do this it was not athletic scholarships in disguise. In fact the ranking system has been modified because Wash U gamed the system so effectively and was able to crack the top ten a few years ago.

[snowdenscold]

Good point you don't know where they would have gone. But from what I have seen Wash U was very focused on moving up in the US News and World Report ranking and used much merit aid just to do this it was not athletic scholarships in disguise. In fact the ranking system has been modified because Wash U gamed the system so effectively and was able to crack the top ten a few years ago.

Yeah I forget exactly what happened but it sounded sort of shady. Like perhaps denying the top X % of their applicant pool because they knew those students would go to other schools anyway - so you lower your acceptance rate AND increase yield.