Playing time for Dawkins

[-jk]

You're obviously right but, this is no ordinary situation. You might say that Dawkins' agreement to come early gave K what he needed to get No. 4 and cost the kid big time, big, big time. Then, and I was surprised to learn this this past week, Dawkins was not given a choice about whether to sit out last season; the decision was K's. Now, no one is suggesting that that decision was not in Dawkins's best interest, but one has to see the decision-maker in a very, very sensitive matter as having a potential conflict of interest.

Why conflict of interest. Normally, a coach does what is right for the program period. This was not a normal situation, everyone agrees, even apart from the fact that K sold Dawkins on coming early and forgoing the opportunity to mature and grow his game outside the pressure cooker that is Duke and the priorities that K pursuing a championship put a "kid" in potential competition and conflict with. Then there is the tragedy and he is one of Duke's own.

Sooo, how high a standard do we set for the coaches with respect to how much they were willing or not to fashion approaches this year to give Dawkins the opportunity to not simply fit in but to play the game with the freedom growing up so young, from the moment he declared early, seems to have deprived him of. That, my friends, "isn't exactly a soup question, is it?" Sean Connery in Finding Forrester.

I don't think you get K and how he sees leadership.

Tragedy strikes. And at least since ancient Greece, we mere mortals (and K - for all his greatness - is still mortal; Andre more so) have had to deal with tragedy. But Andre wasn't dealing with his personal tragedy, and it was making his life miserable. Most everyone could see it. K certainly could. Whether Andre did is questionable.

K made him see he was wasn't dealing with his sister's death, and made him do something about it. (And goodness knows we could have used Andre last season more even than this year.) Andre had options: Quit basketball. Transfer. Come back. He chose to take a year off and return to the Duke basketball team. Call it K's tough love. Perhaps Machiavellian. But Andre had something he needed to learn and K wasn't going to let him not learn it, even it it wasn't necessarily the best for the team at the time.

Seeing the smiles on Andre's face this year - whether on the floor or the bench - makes me think he did learn. We should all have such a task-master looking out for us.

-jk

[Duke76]

I don't think you get K and how he sees leadership.

Tragedy strikes. And at least since ancient Greece, we mere mortals (and K - for all his greatness - is still mortal; Andre more so) have had to deal with tragedy. But Andre wasn't dealing with his personal tragedy, and it was making his life miserable. Most everyone could see it. K certainly could. Whether Andre did is questionable.

K made him see he was wasn't dealing with his sister's death, and made him do something about it. (And goodness knows we could have used Andre last season more even than this year.) Andre had options: Quit basketball. Transfer. Come back. He chose to take a year off and return to the Duke basketball team. Call it K's tough love. Perhaps Machiavellian. But Andre had something he needed to learn and K wasn't going to let him not learn it, even it it wasn't necessarily the best for the team at the time.

Seeing the smiles on Andre's face this year - whether on the floor or the bench - makes me think he did learn. We should all have such a task-master looking out for us.

-jk

But what really does that have to do with whether k is making a Duke basketball mistake in a material way with the way he has handled Dre's playing time? I think those stats we see a little early in this thread support those of us who believe he has

[-jk]

But what really does that have to do with whether k is making a Duke basketball mistake in a material way with the way he has handled Dre's playing time? I think those stats we see a little early in this thread support those of us who believe he has

I was responding to a post suggesting K was acting in self interest - "but one has to see the decision-maker in a very, very sensitive matter as having a potential conflict of interest. "

I was refuting the assertion that K was not acting in Andre's best interest.

-jk

[turnandburn55]

But what really does that have to do with whether k is making a Duke basketball mistake in a material way with the way he has handled Dre's playing time? I think those stats we see a little early in this thread support those of us who believe he has

I suppose that's a question for greybeard... kind of took it from the "Duke basketball mistake" territory into "conflict of interest" territory, which appears to be a bit more focused on value judgements than a tactical discussion of how minutes are handled. -jk's response may not answer your question, but addresses greybeard's nicely, which I believe was the stated intent.

[Newton_14]

I don't think you get K and how he sees leadership.

Tragedy strikes. And at least since ancient Greece, we mere mortals (and K - for all his greatness - is still mortal; Andre more so) have had to deal with tragedy. But Andre wasn't dealing with his personal tragedy, and it was making his life miserable. Most everyone could see it. K certainly could. Whether Andre did is questionable.

K made him see he was wasn't dealing with his sister's death, and made him do something about it. (And goodness knows we could have used Andre last season more even than this year.) Andre had options: Quit basketball. Transfer. Come back. He chose to take a year off and return to the Duke basketball team. Call it K's tough love. Perhaps Machiavellian. But Andre had something he needed to learn and K wasn't going to let him not learn it, even it it wasn't necessarily the best for the team at the time.

Seeing the smiles on Andre's face this year - whether on the floor or the bench - makes me think he did learn. We should all have such a task-master looking out for us.

-jk

Yeah, this I totally agree with. I thought Greybeard's original post in this thread was really good, and still do. Concerning what happened last year though, I think K did the exact right thing. We have seen a totally different Andre this year and it is the most heart warming thing I have seen all year. I saw a lot of Duke jersey's on Duke fans in Greensboro yesterday. Most were Jabari, some were of past greats. I wore my recently purchased 34 and went nuts every time he did something good. Love that kid. He will always be in my top 5 of favorite Duke players. He has endured and overcome. I watched him closely all year and he never once changed. His whole countenance and demeanor was way different than before, and was positive all the time. Whether he played 32 minutes, 7 minutes, or 0 minutes, he was positive and fully engaged at all times, either cheering the guys on the floor on, giving instruction whatever. He even threw something new in yesterday. When Rasheed lost his cool there at the end, it appeared the Duke bench was not aware Rasheed had just been T'd up. Andre walked over to the bench, pointed at Tyler to come in, and told the coaches to take Rasheed out so he could calm down. Tyler got up and headed to the scorer's table, and nothing further was said.

I do feel Andre should have played more this year, but I know K really wants our perimeter Defense to be as good as possible so he rides Tyler and Rasheed a lot. Still think the Matt appearances Saturday and yesterday were due to Andre not being 100% healthwise. I also think if truth were told, those back issues Andre had early on have flared up at times too. When I saw him in the open practice, Andre appeared to be in tip top shape. Was bouncy, and muscular. He looks to me to have put on a few pounds since that time, maybe a half step slower, and not as bouncy as then.

All in all, I think he has had a really good year and I for one am very proud of him. He endured a great ordeal and through the help of K and many other peope he overcame it. I hope he shines in the NCAA Tourney but if he never scores another point he is still awesome in my opinion. One of the great stories of 2014.

[ijtemi]

linky



The article is a interesting read but if you dont want to read it these are the quotes from andre 'ray allen' dawkins and quinn 'no me' cook.

Andre Dawkins: “It doesn't need to be explained,” Dawkins said of his lack of playing time. “As a player, it’s not my job to ask for explanations. It was a tough game (against N.C. State). The guys that played, played well.“My job is to go out there and play, not question the decision. I stand behind the coach’s decision 100 percent.”At least one of his teammates would have liked to see Dawkins out there more against the Cavaliers. “He's one of the best shooters in the country,” Quinn Cook said. “He's a weapon. As a point guard, I try to find him at all times.”

[Duke76]

whether he's bouncy or not or has put on a few pounds is a real stretch in my opinion...he was bouncy enough to make three 3 pointers at least two of them from a couple of feet behind the line in 7 minutes and he darn made another 3 that went in and out that could have really changed the momentum of the game.
put it this way...I'd rather watch and I think we have a better chance of winning with Andre firing 3's than watch our other guards dribble endlessly at the top of the key and then force shots up that don't go in...or at least play a few more minutes than he is getting now

On another note, watching the Baylor Duke game from 2010 now. Its a shame that none of guards have learned that little floater that Nolan utilized so effectively or the big men haven't learned how to pass from the free throw line to the wings. Had forgotten that both Plumlee's were on that team along with Zoubek, Singler, Scheyer...and Andre..especially in this game..special special team our Devils from 2010..sorry for the digression

[Duke76]

wow couldn't link to your post about that article but that pretty much shows Andre's maturity, really really proud of him..makes me want it even more for him.

[Newton_14]

whether he's bouncy or not or has put on a few pounds is a real stretch in my opinion...he was bouncy enough to make three 3 pointers at least two of them from a couple of feet behind the line in 7 minutes and he darn made another 3 that went in and out that could have really changed the momentum of the game.
put it this way...I'd rather watch and I think we have a better chance of winning with Andre firing 3's than watch our other guards dribble endlessly at the top of the key and then force shots up that don't go in...or at least play a few more minutes than he is getting now

On another note, watching the Baylor Duke game from 2010 now. Its a shame that none of guards have learned that little floater that Nolan utilized so effectively or the big men haven't learned how to pass from the free throw line to the wings. Had forgotten that both Plumlee's were on that team along with Zoubek, Singler, Scheyer...and Andre..especially in this game..special special team our Devils from 2010..sorry for the digression

Thanks for the snark and for totally miscontruing what I said and meant. Appreciate it.

As one of his biggest fans I was certainly not dissing the kid. By "bouncy" i meant he looked really quick on his feet that day and had the ability to get off the ground quickly when jumping. His lateral quickness looked really good as well. He hurt his back sometime between that day and the next time I saw him in person which was the Drury Exhibition game. That's fact, not opinion, and the source was Coach K. In the many times I have seen him in person since that practice he has not looked quite as lean as that day and not quite as quick. Meaning, my fear is, his back issues possibly have flared up from time to time and possibly hurt his conditioning. I don't know and Duke never discusses injuries or illness unless it is major. So we never get the benefit of knowing.

Either way he has had a really good year, and no one on this board or planet wants to see him get more playing time than me. In my opinion he is the best shooter in the country. Bouncy or not, healthy or not, I want him on the floor. there is no one i trust more shooting a 3 than him.

[Duke76]

Thanks for the snark and for totally miscontruing what I said and meant. Appreciate it.

As one of his biggest fans I was certainly not dissing the kid. By "bouncy" i meant he looked really quick on his feet that day and had the ability to get off the ground quickly when jumping. His lateral quickness looked really good as well. He hurt his back sometime between that day and the next time I saw him in person which was the Drury Exhibition game. That's fact, not opinion, and the source was Coach K. In the many times I have seen him in person since that practice he has not looked quite as lean as that day and not quite as quick. Meaning, my fear is, his back issues possibly have flared up from time to time and possibly hurt his conditioning. I don't know and Duke never discusses injuries or illness unless it is major. So we never get the benefit of knowing.

Either way he has had a really good year, and no one on this board or planet wants to see him get more playing time than me. In my opinion he is the best shooter in the country. Bouncy or not, healthy or not, I want him on the floor. there is no one i trust more shooting a 3 than him.

Don't think I was making a snide comment nor totally misconstruing what you were saying. It's obvious you like Andre, we all do, just thought you were a little too eager to find support for K not playing him. I confess, I may be too critical of K on this issue but I and others apparently on this thread don't understand the reasoning and wish we did. Obviously you may be right, just wish we knew

[BlueTeuf]

K doesn't miss often...

I resurrect this snippet from earlier in the string to offer my personal observation that Coach does miss often, and on purpose. He brings in more talent than he is willing to commit his full investment - primarily because it's a zero sum game.

He has a pecking order and needs to have a pecking order. He is just not comfortable in going 9-10 deep and therefore some real talent takes a backseat. My observation is that Coach sustains the pecking order by exercising differing amounts of "leash". Those at the bottom of the pecking order (and there for well deserved reasons) get very little leash. Unfortunately, such an approach can be very destructive intellectually and emotionally for someone who is struggling with being at the bottom of the pecking order. The dynamic accentuates as early departures are backfilled with top flight freshman looking to make their mark and then get on with their careers.

This year is especially confounding - because Coach's choices aren't proving all that enlightened.

Re-reading this I see that some might interpret this as an attack. Not my intent. I sincerely believe our Coach has earned admiration and respect of one of the elite coaches of modern sport - any sport.

[Kedsy]

On another note, watching the Baylor Duke game from 2010 now. Its a shame that none of guards have learned that little floater that Nolan utilized so effectively or the big men haven't learned how to pass from the free throw line to the wings. Had forgotten that both Plumlee's were on that team along with Zoubek, Singler, Scheyer...and Andre..especially in this game..special special team our Devils from 2010..sorry for the digression

And yet many posters here at DBR spent most of that season railing against the team as being fatally flawed, "a Sweet 16 team at best," with no "true" point guard and no legitimate big man and playing "three on five" on offense. These posters suggested there was no way the team would be capable of a deep run in March unless Brian Zoubek and Lance Thomas took a seat in favor of the athletic Plumlee brothers because if that didn't happen a team like Baylor or West Virginia would rip us to shreds.

It was only after we won the natty that many posters around here decided how special that team was. It's a potential lesson.

[gep]

You're obviously right but, this is no ordinary situation. You might say that Dawkins' agreement to come early gave K what he needed to get No. 4 and cost the kid big time, big, big time. Then, and I was surprised to learn this this past week, Dawkins was not given a choice about whether to sit out last season; the decision was K's. Now, no one is suggesting that that decision was not in Dawkins's best interest, but one has to see the decision-maker in a very, very sensitive matter as having a potential conflict of interest.

Why conflict of interest. Normally, a coach does what is right for the program period. This was not a normal situation, everyone agrees, even apart from the fact that K sold Dawkins on coming early and forgoing the opportunity to mature and grow his game outside the pressure cooker that is Duke and the priorities that K pursuing a championship put a "kid" in potential competition and conflict with. Then there is the tragedy and he is one of Duke's own.

Someone should correct me... but I thought Dawkins, after hearing of lack of guards, had his father call Coach K to ask if it would make sense for Dawkins to come a year earlier to Duke, since he was very close to graduating. And... Dawkins was a HUGE Duke fan... even trying to convince other recruits to come to Duke. In other words, Dawkins and family called Duke... not the other way around.

[LobstersPinchPinch]

I resurrect this snippet from earlier in the string to offer my personal observation that Coach does miss often, and on purpose. He brings in more talent than he is willing to commit his full investment - primarily because it's a zero sum game.

He has a pecking order and needs to have a pecking order. He is just not comfortable in going 9-10 deep and therefore some real talent takes a backseat. My observation is that Coach sustains the pecking order by exercising differing amounts of "leash". Those at the bottom of the pecking order (and there for well deserved reasons) get very little leash. Unfortunately, such an approach can be very destructive intellectually and emotionally for someone who is struggling with being at the bottom of the pecking order. The dynamic accentuates as early departures are backfilled with top flight freshman looking to make their mark and then get on with their careers.

This year is especially confounding - because Coach's choices aren't proving all that enlightened.

Re-reading this I see that some might interpret this as an attack. Not my intent. I sincerely believe our Coach has earned admiration and respect of one of the elite coaches of modern sport - any sport.

I'm new to the boards but don't consider your comments (or this thread) an attack, for what that's worth. If something makes no sense, we can only pull our punches so much and remain intellectually honest.

Many people have favorites. The important thing is to still treat everyone the same. I've had favorite employees, and conversely, employees I just didn't "click" with. It was really hard to treat both groups equivalently. But it's unfair to not do so, both to the individual as well as the organization.

I love Andre, more than anyone on this (or any other) Duke team. I've seen enough this year to believe he's not being treated equivalently to players our coaching staff "trusts," even to the detriment of the team.

[greybeard]

I don't think you get K and how he sees leadership.

Tragedy strikes. And at least since ancient Greece, we mere mortals (and K - for all his greatness - is still mortal; Andre more so) have had to deal with tragedy. But Andre wasn't dealing with his personal tragedy, and it was making his life miserable. Most everyone could see it. K certainly could. Whether Andre did is questionable.

K made him see he was wasn't dealing with his sister's death, and made him do something about it. (And goodness knows we could have used Andre last season more even than this year.) Andre had options: Quit basketball. Transfer. Come back. He chose to take a year off and return to the Duke basketball team. Call it K's tough love. Perhaps Machiavellian. But Andre had something he needed to learn and K wasn't going to let him not learn it, even it it wasn't necessarily the best for the team at the time.

Seeing the smiles on Andre's face this year - whether on the floor or the bench - makes me think he did learn. We should all have such a task-master looking out for us.

-jk

Thanks JK. It's not that I didn't see it, just not quite as sharply as you've shaped it.

On the other hand, that to me does not get us all the way home, does not get this situation that Andre finds himself in back to equipoise.

There can be no question but that Andre was lured to come to Duke a year early to support the charge to a Championship; everyone here saw that, and saw him as the missing piece. K too. right.

The question remains, did Andre leave home too early because the General called and does that now leave him in a diminished roll that perhaps deprives him of the opportunity to play through dry spots and become the player, the star player, that he might be. Now, people can nibble at the heals of this all they want, but the question lurks. As someone here has already said, good luck waiting for the coaches to answer it. But, I wonder, has Andre not earned a chance to play without having to look over his shoulder in a way that no one with a jump shot like his should have to. I wonder. Wonder I do.

[DukeAlumBS]

Dawkins needs to get 8-10 shots a game. Period. However many minutes that is he needs them. One of my favorite players on the team.

I agree with this. Also Cook need to get involved. Shot selection from our other players has been poor at times from Parker/Hood/Soulamon as well. Cook or Dawkins could help a great deal.
Nice day
Jimmy

[Devilwin]

Honestly, more of Dawkins and less of Rasheed would suit me well. Rasheed loses the ball way too much on drives to the hoop...

[MCFinARL]

Someone should correct me... but I thought Dawkins, after hearing of lack of guards, had his father call Coach K to ask if it would make sense for Dawkins to come a year earlier to Duke, since he was very close to graduating. And... Dawkins was a HUGE Duke fan... even trying to convince other recruits to come to Duke. In other words, Dawkins and family called Duke... not the other way around.

There can be no question but that Andre was lured to come to Duke a year early to support the charge to a Championship; everyone here saw that, and saw him as the missing piece. K too. right.

The question remains, did Andre leave home too early because the General called and does that now leave him in a diminished roll that perhaps deprives him of the opportunity to play through dry spots and become the player, the star player, that he might be. Now, people can nibble at the heals of this all they want, but the question lurks. As someone here has already said, good luck waiting for the coaches to answer it. But, I wonder, has Andre not earned a chance to play without having to look over his shoulder in a way that no one with a jump shot like his should have to. I wonder. Wonder I do.

gep is right here; as reported even before Andre arrived at Duke, the family contacted the coaches, not the other way around. Did the coaches encourage him to come? I'm sure they did, as the departure of Williams left them a bit short of guards. But that is rather different from "luring" him to come.

As someone posted in another thread, Andre chose Duke twice. And greybeard is right that his coming early did serve Duke's interests at that time, regardless of whose idea it was. Does that mean the coaches owe him something more than they owe any Duke player? I don't know--that's a hard question to answer at best, and one that is really impossible to answer without knowing the content of all the conversations between the coaches and Andre over the years. As a basketball matter, I side with the people who would like to see more Andre. And as a sentimental matter, I side with the people who would like to see more Andre. But I'm not sure I'm ready to say we should see more Andre as an ethical/moral matter.

Regardless, like Newton_14 and others, I am really, really proud of Andre and very pleased to see him handling everything so well.

[DukeAlumBS]

Honestly, more of Dawkins and less of Rasheed would suit me well. Rasheed loses the ball way too much on drives to the hoop...

Very good. This is my point. Shot selection has been horrible by some players including Rasheed. The same with Parker and Hood. A rushed 3 or poorly shot midrange.
Cook should shoot more in this setting. And get Dawkins in there.
Nice day
Jimmy

[jv001]

I think we've come a long way in being able to discuss lack of playing time for Andre or for that matter, any Duke player. In times past, players have been highly criticized during these discussions. There has not been much of this in this thread. As for Andre, I believe that one of two likely reasons for Andre not playing the minutes we think he should be getting are: 1) Andre is not well and by that I mean a bug or the back issues he had at the first of the year. 2) Coach K does not see what we see in Andre's play and by that, I mean he's not the asset we think he is. Or there could be another reason and I hope that's not the case. Coach K is stubborn about giving Andre more minutes. Tyler Thornton is a valuable player for Duke. So are Rasheed and Quinn. I'm of the belief that Tyler would be better in short stints because of his foul troubles. We need him for his energy and off the ball defense, but he fouls way too much. As one previous poster said, Rodney could have been given some rest against Virginia. That would have been an excellent time for Andre to come in. Andre needs to be on the court when Jabari is in the game because of the kick out possibility when JP is double teamed. I hope we see Andre Friday for at least 15-20 minutes. GoDuke!