MBB: Coaching Carousel 2014

[Cameron]

I've said this before, but when DePaul faded in prominence, it left a hole in Chicago sports that has never been filled. Chicago doesn't have a good nearby college program that it can call its own. The Big Ten schools don't count, and if Northwestern ever got good I think it would only have a fanbase similar to Duke's in NC -- that is, mostly alumni. Or put another way, if it's the middle of January and you want to see a decent local team, you're SOL.

Houston and St. John's are similar cases in that they were once among the game's traditional heavyweights and also the most dominant programs in their respective cities. The Johnnies have fared the best of all three over the last 20 years, reaching fleeting national success at the turn of the century with Mike Jarvis at the helm and experiencing a mild resurgence -- at least in terms of exposure and recruiting -- under Steve Lavin. But overall, none of the three programs has ever come close to reclaiming its past glory.

While the obvious common denominator among the three teams is that each began its slide from national relevance upon the retirement of a legendary coach (Ray Meyer at DePaul, Guy Lewis at Houston and Louie Carnesecca at St. John's), it's still odd that at least some measure of success couldn't be sustained moving forward as each school possesses not only tremendous history but also a great city to attract high-profile recruits. Anyway, I've just always found it strange that these once celebrated hoops schools have become pretty much extinct.

Except Georgetown is a school that develops big men, remember?

Good point. I imagine Georgetown has pretty strict height requirements for anybody hired to work with post players (e.g. must be over six feet). So that sucks for Wojo.

[roywhite]

Auburn fires 4th year coach Tony Barbee

Jeff Capel a possible candidate?
Bruce Pearl?

[Henderson]

Auburn fires 4th year coach Tony Barbee

Jeff Capel a possible candidate?
Bruce Pearl?

I hope Jeff Capel isn't a candidate. I say stay away from any school that Alabama fans look down upon as being made up mostly of stupid rednecks. I taught graduate school in Birmingham for 2 years, and Auburn alums think Alabama is a snooty elitist institution.

[BD80]

... I believe that Georgetown is a top ten all-time program ...

Duke, UCLA, unc, uk, KU ...

Indiana, Ohio State ...

Louisville, Michigan, Michigan State, NCState ...

Cincinnati, San Francisco ..

Florida, uCon ...

Then the group of Syracuse, Marquette, DePaul, Georgetown, Maryland, Arizona, UNLV

then St John's, Virginia, Purdue, Illinois, Arkansas

[sporthenry]

Duke, UCLA, unc, uk, KU ...

Indiana, Ohio State ...

Louisville, Michigan, Michigan State, NCState ...

Cincinnati, San Francisco ..

Florida, uCon ...

Then the group of Syracuse, Marquette, DePaul, Georgetown, Maryland, Arizona, UNLV

then St John's, Virginia, Purdue, Illinois, Arkansas

I'm not a historian, but not sure how Florida is ahead of Georgetown. Florida has 2 titles to Georgetown's 1. But Georgetown has been to 5 F4 to Florida's 4. Been to the NCAAT quite a few more times.

[OldPhiKap]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgetown_basketball

G'Town won their league in 1939, and went to the NCAA's in 1943. It was not until the late 1970's and early 1980's that they did anything again.

G'Town has been a very good program for the last 35 years. But it is a stretch to say that they are one of the ten best of all times.

[Cameron]

Duke, UCLA, unc, uk, KU ...

Indiana, Ohio State ...

Louisville, Michigan, Michigan State, NCState ...

Cincinnati, San Francisco ..

Florida, uCon ...

Then the group of Syracuse, Marquette, DePaul, Georgetown, Maryland, Arizona, UNLV

then St John's, Virginia, Purdue, Illinois, Arkansas

It's a subjective argument, but my top ten list of the all-time greatest basketball traditions, in no particular order, would go something like...

Kentucky
Duke
UCLA
North Carolina
Indiana
Kansas
Connecticut
Arizona
Georgetown
Louisville

Right there (and arguably interchangeable with a couple of teams above): Syracuse, Michigan State, Cincinnati, Ohio State, St. John's, Arkansas, N.C. State, Maryland, Michigan, UNLV and several others.

There is then another category entirely for the once great programs that are now essentially extinct: DePaul, San Francisco, Houston, etc.

Florida has only been good for the last 15 years, so I can't include them. I think a team must be relevant on a national scale for at least a quarter-century as well as maintain at least some measure of success over the course of time in order to make a top ten list such as this (this is why I would exclude teams like Houston or San Fran).

[Cameron]

Temple and Villanova are two programs that are also in that next tier (after schools like Syracuse, Michigan State, Cincinnati, Arkansas, etc.) of all-time great programs, though Temple has really started to fall off the map in the post-John Chaney era and is slowly fading into that Houston and DePaul territory.

The Owls are one program in particular that I hope can right the ship and reclaim their position as a hoops power at some point in the near future, because I always admired John Chaney and the work he did at that school. At one time, Temple, from the little Atlantic 10, was as big a basketball power as there was anywhere.

[devildeac]

Duke, UCLA, unc, uk, KU ...

Indiana, Ohio State ...

Louisville, Michigan, Michigan State, NCState ...

Cincinnati, San Francisco ..

Florida, uCon ...

Then the group of Syracuse, Marquette, DePaul, Georgetown, Maryland, Arizona, UNLV

then St John's, Virginia, Purdue, Illinois, Arkansas

Here's the list (not including current season):


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...ege_basketball

Johnnies were #7 all-time wins after the 2012-13 season. Still pretty impressive.

Assorted pastry, danish, breads and rolls banners not included.

[Mal]

I've said this before, but when DePaul faded in prominence, it left a hole in Chicago sports that has never been filled. Chicago doesn't have a good nearby college program that it can call its own. The Big Ten schools don't count, and if Northwestern ever got good I think it would only have a fanbase similar to Duke's in NC -- that is, mostly alumni. Or put another way, if it's the middle of January and you want to see a decent local team, you're SOL.

I wasn't here in the mid-'80's, but it always struck me as more anomalous that DePaul was ever a power than that they faded into obscurity.

I don't think that hole's likely to ever be filled, at least not in our lifetimes. For one, as I'm sure you'll agree, it's primarily a professional sports town. People moved on to Michael Jordan pretty quickly. Television has 850 games a week on tap, so there's no need to go see a decent local team, even if they exist. DePaul's facilities are pathetic, and they don't even play anywhere near campus. But most importantly, recruiting has just changed so significantly over the last 30 years. It's impossible to get a collection of top players from one city to stay in town anymore. Everyone from UCLA to Duke to Kentucky has them on their radars from the age of 14 now, and don't have to make a special trip just to meet them due to all the tournaments. They're playing on AAU and all-star teams with kids from other towns and forming friendships there, too. No one stays around an institution for as long as Ray Meyer these days, so it's very difficult to build any local, non-alum fanbase without continuity or being seen as a stepping stone. DePaul was able for awhile to overcome its competitive disadvantages, primarily due to Meyer's cultivation of relationships with every high school coach in Illinois over 40+ years there. Those disadvantages have just grown nearly insurmountable over time, though. Even for the great Pat Kennedy. [sad trombone]

Nowadays, if you want to be a smallish school in an urban environment with a lot of other attractions that succeeds in big time basketball, you need to, among other things, dump a bunch of money into a modern arena. DePaul's not going to do that (and doesn't have anywhere to do it - they should have bought 6 acres somewhere along the Clybourn corridor when they had the chance 25 years ago). I'm no genius, but I thought Oliver Purnell was insane to take that job, and it looks like he may need to start looking again soon.

All that said, the implosion of the Big East is probably a good thing for DePaul basketball generally. Now they're back in a mid-major with the ability to break through every once in awhile and rack up a NCAAT appearance here and there, instead of being guaranteed a base of 8 or 9 conference losses every season.

[roywhite]

I wasn't here in the mid-'80's, but it always struck me as more anomalous that DePaul was ever a power than that they faded into obscurity.

Well, they had Ray Meyer as coach for 43 years and 724 wins.

Ray Meyer wiki bio

As I recall, the guy was a really good coach for a long time in relative obscurity, and then in the mid-70's, he put together some good teams, became a popular national figure in the media, and began to get some of the best talent in Chicago-land. They had a real nice run, and some initial success when Ray's son took over, but it didn't last.

I think it's still possible for a mid-major school to catch fire and have great success; it helps if they are located in a good area for talent. Recent examples include St. Joseph's in Philadelphia and Butler in Indianapolis. The really hard thing for this type program is sustaining excellence.

[Henderson]

Why not? They are on the good side of the bubble right now, but probably need a win in the PAC-12 tournament to guarantee a tourney bid. And Dawkins probably needs to win the first round NCAA tournament game to guarantee his job security.

They made the tournament 13 of the 14 years before Dawkins got there, and taking over a team coming off a Sweet 16, he's never gone to the tournament in his 5+ years there.

Trent Johnson (11-23 at TCU this year) left Dawkins with zero pipeline. Zippo. IIRC JD was reduced to playing a walk on and Santa Clara transfer early on. So give him a break for the first few years considering what he inherited. And then consider these facts:

1. In the past five years, Stanford has finished 8th, 7th, 7th, 6th, and tied for 3rd in the Pac-12 regular season. Think trajectory.
2. They won the NIT in 2012.
3. They are 119-80 under J.D.
4. They won 20 games this year (so far), including wins over UConn, Oregon, and UCLA. RPI of 46, 4-4 against top 50 teams and no losses to teams with an RPI outside the top 100.
5. Two players this year are all Pac-12.
6. He's got good recruits coming in, including Reid Travis (whom we wanted) next year.

Not bad, but not great. Stanford's AD, Bernard Muir, wants more. That's clear. At the start of the year, he made clear that he wanted Stanford to compete for a Pac-12 title and go to the NCAAT. Stanford was T-3 in the Pac-12, and they have a big game against ASU tonight. If Stanford doesn't make the NCAA tourney, J.D. is toast and doesn't deserve it. If Stanford makes the NCAA tourney and loses in the first round, J.D. might be toast and surely doesn't deserve it. But attendance at Stanford games is down 30% in Dawkins' tenure, and that equates to alumni $$$. Muir and alumni donations are the issue at this point, not Johnny Dawkins.

My point: If J.D. gets fired this year, he doesn't deserve it.

But think about this: Let's assume that Muir is the impatient SOB he might be and fires J.D. after this season. Does J.D. come back to Duke next year? Does Reid Travis come with him?

[sagegrouse]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgetown_basketball

G'Town won their league in 1939, and went to the NCAA's in 1943. It was not until the late 1970's and early 1980's that they did anything again.

G'Town has been a very good program for the last 35 years. But it is a stretch to say that they are one of the ten best of all times.

When Big Jawn was hired from St. Anthony's HS, the Georgetown President, Father Henle, advised him that it would be good if G'town made the NIT every few years. It is true that big-time Georgetown hoops only started with John Thompson Jr.

[Des Esseintes]

Trent Johnson (11-23 at TCU this year) left Dawkins with zero pipeline. Zippo. IIRC JD was reduced to playing a walk on and Santa Clara transfer early on. So give him a break for the first few years considering what he inherited. And then consider these facts:

1. In the past five years, Stanford has finished 8th, 7th, 7th, 6th, and tied for 3rd in the Pac-12 regular season. Think trajectory.
2. They won the NIT in 2012.
3. They are 119-80 under J.D.
4. They won 20 games this year (so far), including wins over UConn, Oregon, and UCLA. RPI of 46, 4-4 against top 50 teams and no losses to teams with an RPI outside the top 100.
5. Two players this year are all Pac-12.
6. He's got good recruits coming in, including Reid Travis (whom we wanted) next year.

Not bad, but not great. Stanford's AD, Bernard Muir, wants more. That's clear. At the start of the year, he made clear that he wanted Stanford to compete for a Pac-12 title and go to the NCAAT. Stanford was T-3 in the Pac-12, and they have a big game against ASU tonight. If Stanford doesn't make the NCAA tourney, J.D. is toast and doesn't deserve it. If Stanford makes the NCAA tourney and loses in the first round, J.D. might be toast and surely doesn't deserve it. But attendance at Stanford games is down 30% in Dawkins' tenure, and that equates to alumni $$$. Muir and alumni donations are the issue at this point, not Johnny Dawkins.

My point: If J.D. gets fired this year, he doesn't deserve it.

But think about this: Let's assume that Muir is the impatient SOB he might be and fires J.D. after this season. Does J.D. come back to Duke next year? Does Reid Travis come with him?

I hear all that, but Dawkins has had time. Stanford can reasonably expect better performance than it has gotten the past few seasons under him. The bareness of the roster left behind by Johnson is counterbalanced by the exceptional weakness of the Pac-12 during this period. Even accounting for the lack of on-hand talent, Stanford could have shown better against such lousy competition. Likewise, while it's true the team has played better this year than in previous campaigns, it also is an incredibly veteran squad. Next year's team, equipped though it may be with good recruits, will be hard-pressed to perform better since so much is being lost. I think it would be very hard to criticize Stanford if at this point the AD goes in a different direction. I'm not saying Johnny Dawkins should be fired, but I certainly will not argue with any Stanford fan who feels otherwise.

[Cameron]

When Big Jawn was hired from St. Anthony's HS, the Georgetown President, Father Henle, advised him that it would be good if G'town made the NIT every few years. It is true that big-time Georgetown hoops only started with John Thompson Jr.

Which makes Georgetown's place in the discussion of the 10 (or, at worst, 15) greatest college basketball traditions ever all the more impressive.

Georgetown hoops evolved into a national power almost four decades ago. That's actually quite a long time. Florida, conversely, has only been really good on a national scale for about 15 or 16 years. The Gators did reach a Final Four in 1994 under Lon Kruger, but it wasn't until the turn of the century that Billy Donovan really ignited the national championship level program that it is today.

[Newton_14]

I hear all that, but Dawkins has had time. Stanford can reasonably expect better performance than it has gotten the past few seasons under him. The bareness of the roster left behind by Johnson is counterbalanced by the exceptional weakness of the Pac-12 during this period. Even accounting for the lack of on-hand talent, Stanford could have shown better against such lousy competition. Likewise, while it's true the team has played better this year than in previous campaigns, it also is an incredibly veteran squad. Next year's team, equipped though it may be with good recruits, will be hard-pressed to perform better since so much is being lost. I think it would be very hard to criticize Stanford if at this point the AD goes in a different direction. I'm not saying Johnny Dawkins should be fired, but I certainly will not argue with any Stanford fan who feels otherwise.

Well in fairness, and in addition to all the points the OP made, Stanford has had a ton of injuries the last 3 years. Hard to achieve all your goals when several of your best players are sitting there as assistant coaches rather than on the floor helping you win. I would like to see how JD does with a few fully healthy and talented teams in a row.

[Indoor66]

Well in fairness, and in addition to all the points the OP made, Stanford has had a ton of injuries the last 3 years. Hard to achieve all your goals when several of your best players are sitting there as assistant coaches rather than on the floor helping you win. I would like to see how JD does with a few fully healthy and talented teams in a row.

Kinda sounds like the Duke Women's team.

[duke09hms]

Well in fairness, and in addition to all the points the OP made, Stanford has had a ton of injuries the last 3 years. Hard to achieve all your goals when several of your best players are sitting there as assistant coaches rather than on the floor helping you win. I would like to see how JD does with a few fully healthy and talented teams in a row.

5 years is more than enough time to make the NCAA tournament especially at a school like Stanford. It's not like we're talking about Duke football here. The Pac-12 has been a very weak conference the last few years with only Arizona having any real relevance.

It's not alumni donations either. Stanford's more than raking in the dough especially given their football success. It's about on-court performance. If Dawkins had gotten fired last year, he would not have gotten a raw deal.

They should make the tournament this year, but he'd likely have to win at least 1 game to feel safe about his job. 5 of his 8-man rotation are seniors, including their best player and future NBA draft pick Dwight Powell. And in his 6 years, they've been 9th, 8th, 7th, 7th, 6th, and 6th in the weak Pac-12. For a school with a tradition of athletic/basketball excellence and all the resources in the world, that's probably not good enough.

[jv001]

5 years is more than enough time to make the NCAA tournament especially at a school like Stanford. It's not like we're talking about Duke football here. The Pac-12 has been a very weak conference the last few years with only Arizona having any real relevance.

It's not alumni donations either. Stanford's more than raking in the dough especially given their football success. It's about on-court performance. If Dawkins had gotten fired last year, he would not have gotten a raw deal.

They should make the tournament this year, but he'd likely have to win at least 1 game to feel safe about his job. 5 of his 8-man rotation are seniors, including their best player and future NBA draft pick Dwight Powell. And in his 6 years, they've been 9th, 8th, 7th, 7th, 6th, and 6th in the weak Pac-12. For a school with a tradition of athletic/basketball excellence and all the resources in the world, that's probably not good enough.

I'm not saying you're right or wrong because I don't see many of Stanford's games. I know there have been injuries to some of his better players but do you think Johnny's not a good coach or is he not getting enough from his players. In other words, are they under performing or is it a lack of recruiting? I'd like to know. Dawkins is one of my all time favorites to play at Duke. Not just because he was a great player(he was) but because he seemed to be a very nice guy in the times I've been blessed to meet him. Beat Clemson and GoDuke!

[wsb3]

I was surprised that Buzz was fired. Not because his performance did not warrant it but UNCW has a history of being cheap in paying coaches. They paid Buzz more than double of those before him that include Brad Brownell who left for Wright State and was good enough to be an ACC coach but evidently not good enough for the powers to be here at UNCW. The shocking part for me is that they are going to eat this money on his contract and pay another coach at the same time.

I liked it when UNCW was relevant and made the NCAA tourney and even won a game. They should have beat Maryland but for a lucky 3 in 2003 at the buzzer ruined that. This is a beautiful area and while they can't pay the big bucks if they found the right fit my hope is that you have a situation like at Davidson where a coach loves the area and chooses not to chase the more lucrative jobs.

I am a diehard Duke fan but I sure would like to see UNCW be relevant again.