Thoughts Well After an Early Decision Rejection

[sagegrouse]

At the current pace, a couple of years at Baylor(given the current state of Baylor athletics) would likely push Duke to the back of your mind. I don't know much about Waco as I was an infant when my father attended Baylor for his Masters.

As for Vandy, I know you are still waiting to hear, but I went there for b-school and enjoyed it immensely. Plus, Nashville has placed high in many polls/surveys as an up and coming destination.

Here are the lyrics from the Jerry Jeff Walker version of the country classic, "Is Anyone Going to San Antone?"

Is anybody goin to San Antone
Or Pheonix Arizona
Anyplace is alright as long as I
Don't have to go to Waco

[cspan37421]

Matt,

I am quite sympathetic to your situation. My son, who (shockingly) is a lifelong Duke fan, is a junior in high school and is looking at colleges. We came over the summer and checked out Duke. We all loved it (another shock) but we know that the reality is that he is a longshot to get in.

He gets almost all As (5 or 6 As and 1 B per semester) taking the most demanding course load possible (he actually takes accelerated math a year ahead, so he is taking AP Calc as a junior). He is very active in the community and has a great interest in the law and politics (internships with some of the most important politicians in the state of Georgia). He came within 1 right answer of getting a perfect score on his math SAT...

...but his English and his writing SATs were "only" 600 and 610. He still has hopes to pull them up, but we know he likely would need to pull them up by 50+ points each to really have a shot at Duke. Plus the lone B that he gets each semester (usually in English) means his grades are not straight As. It seems harsh to say so, but we think Duke is off the table for him.

I write all this to point out that Duke is really, really, really hard to get into these days. Like the top tier Ivy schools, you need to be perfect in school and have done remarkable things outside of school.

But, my son is perfectly fine with that. He has found other schools -- Haverford, John Hopkins, Lafayette, Tufts, and others -- that match his desire for a smaller school with a strong science/engineering focus. The way the college application process has become at the top schools, you can't really predict where you are going to be accepted and you have to understand that these schools are inundated with tons of applications from incredibly qualified kids.

I told my son as we were visiting schools over the summer that it is not that some of these elite schools reject you, it is that they find a reason to accept someone else. I am sure you would do very well at Duke or whatever school you get into. Duke did not fell you were not right for them. They merely found other students that they felt were a little bit more right. I hope that makes sense and I wish you tons of luck in this very difficult process!

-Jason "I can't imagine I would get into Duke today -- it was a different place in the mid-late 80s" Evans

Yes, Jason is right - it was a different place then, because they let in people like us!! I too was Class of 1989. [I have one in college already & one a high school basketball player, and I didn't exactly start a family right away either.]

Matt, I'd like to echo what Jason said and add a little bit of my own, since I'm active in the AAAC (admissions interviews process).

In the several years I've been interviewing, I've seen kids inexplicably turned away or waitlisted at Duke - kids that I thought were the most amazing young people I've ever met. It's come close to embittering me, but I have to remember a few things. One is that the interview is maybe the 7th most important part of the application, and I don't tend to see much if anything about the other 6 (GPA, curriculum, standardized test scores, teacher recommendations, essay, extracurriculars). So my gut feelings of injustice are based on too little information. Also, as Jason said, one has to consider the entire applicant pool. It's an embarrassment of riches these days - the pool is so strong, if they reversed the news for the 3000 they accept with the second 3000 on the list, the average test scores and GPAs would probably not even change. What might change? I don't know. Accomplishments? Maybe one kid founded a startup company, and another didn't? Maybe one kid plays trumpet and the band needs some trumpet players? One kid is a first-generation college student and another is not? etc.

Just remember, the cream tends to rise to the top over time no matter where you go to school. In my own field, I worked with some colleagues who went to far less selective schools, but if they performed well at their job relative to the ones from exclusive schools, they were promoted faster and paid better in very short order (within a couple years at most, salary differences based on college disappeared). Now, that's just one data point, and I do think you may often get the benefit of the doubt about your intellectual abilities if you go to a very selective school versus a less selective (or less well-known) one. But that's just a foot-in-the-door thing, it's what you do after you walk through the door that matters. Now, I can't speak for places that would refuse to look at someone unless they went to a school as selective as Duke or more so. I'm not sure I'd want to work at such a place.

Another thing you ought to know, Matt, is that recent research has found evidence that students who are accepted at a more exclusive private school (Vandy, Richmond, Penn, in your case) but end up taking a state school scholarship, they tend to do just as well financially (over time) as those who pass on the scholarship and pay full freight to the more exclusive school. That's not to say everything is equal (perhaps no Cameron Crazy experience), but the early evidence is that the career earnings are. Wherever you go, though, don't look back - make the place your own, build an intellectual and social home there, and my guess is that later in life, you cannot imagine having missed out on what you experience just to paint yourself blue and scream your head off for Duke basketball. Yes, it's fun - but so are a lot of things in life. You can still cheer on the blue devils from afar. Maybe not as a student, but maybe as an admirer of Coach K, or the colorful full history of the program etc. Grad school is always a possibility too. And don't forget, many people work at Duke who didn't attend school there. There are many ways to be part of the Duke community.

w/r/t the 70%, wow, I'd not seen that. I don't think I was quite doing AAAC stuff then, but I was just a few years later. Some numbers from a couple years ago suggested to me that the benefit of being in the Duke family (e.g., child of alum/s) did improve one's chances of getting in, but only by a small amount, nothing large enough to turn something inherently unlikely into something with better than 50/50 odds in your favor, even for someone applying early decision. I want to cite the number, but I can't recall if it was expressed confidentially or not. Regardless, it was probably an overall average that varied with the degree of involvement (meaning, an active volunteer and/or a regular donor to the university, preferably both. Not just something anyone with some relation to Duke would get ... I don't know that for sure, but I would think it would be the case.)

Best wishes to you. You will do fine!

[Channing]

Matt,

I know you didn't ask my advice, but that has never stopped me before. Also, bear in mind that I obviously have no idea what your personal financial situation or family situation is. However, you have an impressive list of high quality schools that are offering you a full scholarship. Regardless of whether you are anticipating grad school (and perhaps especially if you are anticipating grad school) I would recommend strongly considering perhaps a lower "ranked" school for the financial flexibility it will afford. I can't tell you how many of my Duke classmates are saddled with overwhelming debt. Some of those who were lucky enough to have parents who could pay their full tuition have lamented that they wish they had that $150,000 to help them catapult their life.

I am a lawyer and the partner I work for went to the local state school for free while I went to Duke. While Duke may offer some added opportunities on Wall Street, if you are successful at any college you will be well positioned moving into the work force. I know that is not the easiest to understand, but from my vantage point, it is very true.

All that said, if you went back and told this to 18 year old Channing he would have laughed in your face, and I thoroughly enjoyed every minute I spent at Duke. However, given today's job market and economic climate, a free education is an incredible opportunity and will put you out way ahead of most colleagues; you will have significant financial flexibility making it easier for (the royal) you to buy your first house or reach a point where you are financially comfortable enough to have your first child.

Anyway, just my .02.

[Reisen]

I think this might also be an appropriate place to point out that while Duke is a great school, it is by no means perfect. Just by size alone, your experience may vary considerably based on the classes you take, and the professors you get.

Duke has some great profs, no doubt about it. But I've met profs at William & Mary, and Georgetown, who I would put up against any prof at Duke. Further, many of Duke's great profs either also teach at other schools, previously taught at other schools, or leave to teach at other schools. As an example, I really liked Lori Leachman (Econ prof and Peter Lange's wife), but prior to Duke she taught at Northern Arizona University. It's not like these top profs spend their entire careers only at top-ranked schools. Just as students have gotten more competitive, so, too, have their instructors.

I also felt like I encountered some pretty lousy support in certain areas while an undergrad at Duke, one of which was career counseling / support.

My point is not to bash Duke, only that there is a lot of parity in higher education, at least so far as it pertains to the actual classroom experience and outcomes. Facilities, brand, networking, access to employers, etc, I'll admit that can vary considerably.

With my own daughter, I wouldn't blink if she wanted to attend a good public institution or some place like a Haverford or Middlebury, although I might encourage her to apply to a top graduate school afterwards.

[willywoody]

I don't understand Matt1's list of schools. They are all over the place.

Take the money and run. In my opinion, you should not even consider a school that doesn't give you a scholarship if you have that many offers already. The only concession I'd make is if there was a major that really interested you at the other schools, and even then I'd be positive that was going to be my major before giving up the money. I was fortunate enough to have undergrad and most of graduate school payed by my family, but if I had been offered a free ride at another school, I doubt I'd be on a Duke board typing unwanted advice today.

[brevity]

College life is extremely expensive, even with a full scholarship. At the risk of sounding like the world's most clichéd toastmaster, Webster's Dictionary defines "stipend" in a way that tells you it's not enough money. In truth, there is economic diversity on every campus, but there will be times where it feels like everyone has more money than you. Usually this happens when some standard lifestyle expense comes up, and all your friends duly pay it, leaving you alone to question why this expense even exists. Welcome to college.

I am older than several people who have small children, and they are still paying off education debt. This influences a great number of their budgetary decisions. Fortunately, I don't identify; like those upthread, I would be an unexceptional college candidate today, but was pretty hot stuff back then. And I would add that the financial aid offices of both college and graduate school moved mountains to make my education possible. They maximized my grant-to-loan ratio, and I was able to pay off my education a lot more easily and quickly than others.

This money talk is not the most fun way to talk about college, but I think you posted this to DBR because you wanted the collective opinion of those who wish they knew then what they know now. I remember both pluses and minuses to my undergraduate experience, so I do sometimes wonder if turning down a full scholarship elsewhere was a good idea.

Oh, and I frequently visited a relative going to Kentucky for graduate school. Lexington is an amazing, small-scale but cosmopolitan city. But be warned that its two biggest sports are the UK basketball season and the UK basketball offseason. There is no escaping it. And I don't know much about Tulane, though I've driven through its barely demarcated campus and remain unimpressed.

[cspan37421]

I don't understand Matt1's list of schools. They are all over the place.

I see some geographic commonalities. All are either:

a) in the south (broadly defined, granted), or
b) in Pennsylvania (2 of 3 in the Philly area).

They do vary considerably by size.

He may have family connections at some schools or in some locales that led to his including them on his list.

[matt1]

My seemingly confusing list is a result of different periods of adding colleges to it. Let me try to explain how I arrived with this list and where I stand on the different schools right now.

Initially, my goal was to try to get into a top-tier school. Back in my sophmore year, I was fairly naive about this and figured that I would find a #1, apply there ED, get in, and it would all be over. I comprised my list of just about every well-known private school east of the Mississippi River (I knew that I didn't want to go out west). My first college visits were to Duke and Davidson the summer after my sophomore year, and I felt like I really liked both. After also touring Vanderbilt and loving it, I was beginning to worry that I would just like everything, but then, I visited Emory. I felt like there was no school spirit and no one really loved being there. I would not realize this for a couple more years, but this would be a sign that I would not really like many smaller colleges (while Emory is not necessarily small, it does only have D3 sports).

By this point, I had also eliminated anything in a cold climate (defined by me as anything north of New York City). My next trip was to Haverford College, which, in addition to lacking school spirit, made me start thinking about another thing, politics, in my school search. I know that DBR bans political discussion, so I will not get into it, but suffice it to say that it was too liberal for me.

Next, I toured a pair of Ivies, in Penn and Princeton. I really expected both to be near the top of my list, but I wound up liking Penn, but hating Princeton, as it felt like people there were overly immersed in school work (to the exclusion of all other activities). For the next couple months, I would always say that my top four was Duke, Davidson, Vanderbilt, and Penn, in no particular order. Late that fall, I went up to Bucknell, expecting to not really like it, but I was pleasantly surprised with the campus and the programs that it offered. The big negative was how rural it is.

My search would continue, and I would add Richmond to the list to make the "Top Six", which would last for all of one day before I toured Duke again and made it my clear #1. I also liked William & Mary enough to plan to apply there, though I never would. I really thought that my list was done, and that Richmond and Bucknell would be my safety schools. I am really glad that I did not do that (a college admissions simulator has me as a 74% chance of acceptance at Richmond and a 58% one at Bucknell). Sometime over the summer, I decided that Tulane would also be a good fit and added it to my list.

When I went back to school in September, my college counselor told me that I was a National Merit Semifinalist (I now am a Finalist), something that I thought was nice, but I did not yet understand the impact that it would have on my search. My goal for the time being was to try to decide a second-choice between Richmond, Penn, and Vanderbilt, which had separated themselves from the pack in my mind. However, I always thought that I would get into Duke. In October (2013), I toured Richmond and Penn and decided that, while Penn has greater prestige (especially for Wharton), Richmond was a better fit, as they have an excellent program in International Business, a great community, a beautiful campus, and good enough sports. I said at the time that I would apply EDII to Richmond in the unlikely event that I would be rejected outright by Duke (I know that hubris sets up a fall, which would be coming).

Two months later, I went into Decision Day nervous, but excited, as I honestly did expect to celebrate that night. I had even already made celebration dinner reservations! Decisions were to be released at 6:00 PM, and I logged onto my portal a few minutes before that only to see a letter on the screen. As I read it, it became apparent that it was a rejection letter, but I reassured myself that it was only a cover and that the real (acceptance) letter would appear at 6:00. But, of course, it never did! That night, I was thinking that I now had to choose where to go for one year before trying to transfer to Duke (I now plan to go wherever I go for four years, but possibly try to get a MBA at Fuqua).

The week after my rejection brought two strange developments. First, I was deferred EA (non-binding) from Tulane, which I had been told was a complete safety school. I was considering adding Rhodes College in Memphis and Franklin & Marshall (in Lancaster, PA) to my list as further safeties, and this made me definitely want to do this, though I would not apply at this time. Later that week, I got a letter from Oklahoma detailing their National Merit scholarship, which is a full-ride plus a few stipends, totaling $116,200. I kind of laughed it off at first, but then began to consider it more seriously as time passed.

Around Christmas, I began to look into whether any other reputable schools also offered those types of scholarships. I was very intrigued by South Carolina, which is ranked as the #1 school in the country for International Business. However, the school's application deadline had already passed, so my application will only be "considered if space is available". When I told my college counselor that I would apply to South Carolina and Oklahoma, in addition to Miami, which my dad wanted me to apply to (but now seems like a reasonable possibility), I expected her to be confused, but she instead recommended that I look at Alabama, which offers an even larger scholarship than Oklahoma does, and which she has always been impressed with. They also have a very strong honors college (with automatic admission to National Merit Finalists), which makes it feel smaller.

I was now unsure about applying anywhere else, including Rhodes and Franklin & Marshall, up until their application deadlines. On January 15th (the deadlines for many schools), I looked through everything to make sure that I was not overlooking any school. My mom really liked a program at Kentucky and Drexel (both schools offer full scholarships to National Merit Finalists), and I caved in and applied to both, even though I had big concerns about both schools. For UK, I thought that I could not bring myself to root for their basketball team (the only thing harder would have been Carolina); for Drexel, my worry was that it does not have a traditional campus or school community (as students are on and off campus for co-ops). I did go through with applying to Rhodes and F&M as well. Late that night, wanting something else, I, on a whim, applied to Baylor, which also offers a full scholarship to National Merit Finalists.

Soon after that, I went to tour Drexel and F&M. While I still do have those concerns about Drexel, I was very impressed with the school itself (it has a good, internationally focused business school) with great job preparation. To be clear, I am definitely willing to study Econ and Spanish at a college with a good reputation for having those programs lead to what I want (ex. Duke and Vandy) or partake in a separate business school. F&M wound up being my last straw for small liberal arts colleges. They just tend to not have the same opportunities or student life as medium and large universities. Richmond definitely feels big enough, but it feels bigger than most colleges of 4000 undergrads. Anyway, I decided to stop considering Rhodes and slightly lower Davidson (which has a great community and great traditions) as a result of that visit. There may also be a too big, but I have not yet toured any of the big state schools. I am going to Alabama this Saturday, so I should have a better idea after that.

If anyone is still reading this, I have a lot of choices to make, as I, to use basketball metaphors, loaded my schedule with cupcakes. I now have an acceptance at Drexel to go with the other five that I had mentioned. My top three are Vanderbilt, Richmond, and Penn, possibly in that order, although it is not firm at all right now. I also really like Tulane (where I have since been accepted after the deferral) on paper, and Alabama seems like the best bet of the National Merit schools, but I have to see both of them. After that, it really is jumbled and unclear. Anyway, it has been a fun search with, when all is said and done, close to 30 college visits, and lots of decisions.

Matt

[YmoBeThere]

Re: Fuqua

My experience is that b-schools have a very different feel from undergrad, so keep that in mind. That could be because I went a little later(8 years working) and came from manufacturing rather than the consulting/i-banking path of so many I met touring schools. Those paths may have changed a bit since my time 13/14 years ago.

[DukieInKansas]

Matt1 - just know that if you end up at Oklahoma, you do have someone willing to serve as an substitute aunt 1 state north should you need anything. I could even ignore the fact that it is Oklahoma.

[throatybeard]

My next trip was to Haverford College, which, in addition to lacking school spirit, made me start thinking about another thing, politics, in my school search. I know that DBR bans political discussion, so I will not get into it, but suffice it to say that it was too liberal for me.

Most places will probably be "too liberal" for you then, seeing as how this is higher education and few conservatives go to work higher ed, except in a few fields like Econ and Poly Sci. So too would Duke.

If this is a problem for you, I suggest a big state school in a red state. OU sounds like the ticket. The student body in particular will be very conservative, especially the whiter end of it.

[Jim3k]

Most places will probably be "too liberal" for you then, seeing as how this is higher education and few conservatives go to work higher ed, except in a few fields like Econ and Poly Sci. So too would Duke.

If this is a problem for you, I suggest a big state school in a red state. OU sounds like the ticket. The student body in particular will be very conservative, especially the whiter end of it.

I don't really disagee with Throaty, Matt, but with regard to the 'liberal v. conservative' meme, I think you are allowing it too much authority in your decision-making. You will certainly find that to be true when it comes to the curriculum. The first two years of college, no matter where, are pretty much the same. Basic stuff, foundational stuff--English lit, math, history, a first year science. Sometimes all falling under the rubric of general education. There is nothing particularly liberal or conservative about any of that. And oddly, you may discover that the instructors do not want you to think for yourself during those years (despite their entreaties that you do so). In that case, you'd want to hold back your opinions anyway, assuming the instructors actually wanted any. (Remember, they're only teaching basics, sometimes from a cookbook.)

When you get to the upper division, you will declare a major. Nothing particularly liberal or conservative about that either. Now, however, depending on your major--if in liberal arts--your opinion (i.e., your analytic skills) will come to the fore. But the profs will not care what your opinion is, so long as you back it with facts and write well and persuasively about it. That's not a concern in any of the science majors. There, you just gotta have a good memory, some higher math and the desire to inculcate it into brain.

You mentioned wanting to be a business major and spoke highly of Wharton and Fuqua. Neither, of course, is available to an undergraduate. If you want to major in business as an undergraduate, by all means, head to a state megaversity. But if you want to be exposed to a broader array of thinking, hold off your business studies until graduate school and allow yourself comfortable surroundings.

As for the liberal or conservative views of your fellow students, you'll probably find that the differences are not a big deal. You may find that discussions with your fellows which call for opinions, to be lively and worthwhile. Don't assume that your conservative views will always prevail; likewise, do not assume that the liberal views will always prevail. You don't have to win or lose; just listen and see if a view contrary to yours is persuasive. If you actually become educated--and think analytically about all things--you will discover that the views you carried to college will have changed when you leave. That's true for everyone, whether they start out 'liberal' or 'conservative.' It's part of the maturation process. The main question will always be: Do your facts fit your opinion or do you allow your opinion to shape your facts? If the latter, then college will have been a waste.

Don't forget to ask yourself what sort of academic challenges do I look forward to? Then, go where you think you will enjoy your environs or where the there is worthwhile financial assistance--be it megaversity or minicollege.

Socially, you will find your own friends and they will find you. Moreover, your fellow students will be a mix of some sort (race, politics, sexual orientation). Give them all a chance. Remember, they will be undergoing the same maturation process you are. If you give the process a chance to succeed, it will. None of you will be the same person you were when you arrived.

[cspan37421]

You mentioned wanting to be a business major and spoke highly of Wharton and Fuqua. Neither, of course, is available to an undergraduate.

Great post by Jim3k, but this snippet is incorrect. Wharton does have an undergraduate program, as well as their well-known MBA program. See:

http://www.wharton.upenn.edu/undergrad/

And at Duke, up to 6 credits in a Duke professional school may count* toward the 34 needed to graduate. Of course, you probably need special approval to get into those courses, but the degree requirements for Trinity specifically note this fact.


* in most cases they do not count toward the general education requirements (areas of knowledge/modes of inquiry, aka distributional requirements).

I'll echo something else he says - I would strongly advise against choosing a school based on whether they're reputed to be conservative or liberal. One ideal of university is to test ideas in the crucible of critical inquiry, evidence, and reason. You are not well served by seeking out an echo chamber. If you do, you will be ill-prepared for the diversity of the world. This is not to suggest a false equivalence of competing ideas; for instance, if you were planning to study physics, you need not search for a school that has at least one expert in "intelligent falling" as an alternative to the theory of gravity. But there is plenty of diversity of rational and empiricist views in the middle 99.9%, ignoring the lunatic fringes. Nearly all decent schools make a point of hiring people from different points of view. I'd be shocked if any of the schools on your list lacked econ faculty with expertise on Keynes or Hayek. The statistics dept will have Bayesians and Frequentists. Etc.

And since you mentioned international business, I'm sure you're aware that there's quite a diversity of economic systems around the world, a broader spectrum than we even see if we contrasted our most blue state with our most red state.

[Reisen]

I don't really disagee with Throaty, Matt, but with regard to the 'liberal v. conservative' meme, I think you are allowing it too much authority in your decision-making. You will certainly find that to be true when it comes to the curriculum. The first two years of college, no matter where, are pretty much the same. Basic stuff, foundational stuff--English lit, math, history, a first year science. Sometimes all falling under the rubric of general education. There is nothing particularly liberal or conservative about any of that. And oddly, you may discover that the instructors do not want you to think for yourself during those years (despite their entreaties that you do so). In that case, you'd want to hold back your opinions anyway, assuming the instructors actually wanted any. (Remember, they're only teaching basics, sometimes from a cookbook.)

When you get to the upper division, you will declare a major. Nothing particularly liberal or conservative about that either. Now, however, depending on your major--if in liberal arts--your opinion (i.e., your analytic skills) will come to the fore. But the profs will not care what your opinion is, so long as you back it with facts and write well and persuasively about it. That's not a concern in any of the science majors. There, you just gotta have a good memory, some higher math and the desire to inculcate it into brain.

You mentioned wanting to be a business major and spoke highly of Wharton and Fuqua. Neither, of course, is available to an undergraduate. If you want to major in business as an undergraduate, by all means, head to a state megaversity. But if you want to be exposed to a broader array of thinking, hold off your business studies until graduate school and allow yourself comfortable surroundings.

As for the liberal or conservative views of your fellow students, you'll probably find that the differences are not a big deal. You may find that discussions with your fellows which call for opinions, to be lively and worthwhile. Don't assume that your conservative views will always prevail; likewise, do not assume that the liberal views will always prevail. You don't have to win or lose; just listen and see if a view contrary to yours is persuasive. If you actually become educated--and think analytically about all things--you will discover that the views you carried to college will have changed when you leave. That's true for everyone, whether they start out 'liberal' or 'conservative.' It's part of the maturation process. The main question will always be: Do your facts fit your opinion or do you allow your opinion to shape your facts? If the latter, then college will have been a waste.

Don't forget to ask yourself what sort of academic challenges do I look forward to? Then, go where you think you will enjoy your environs or where the there is worthwhile financial assistance--be it megaversity or minicollege.

Socially, you will find your own friends and they will find you. Moreover, your fellow students will be a mix of some sort (race, politics, sexual orientation). Give them all a chance. Remember, they will be undergoing the same maturation process you are. If you give the process a chance to succeed, it will. None of you will be the same person you were when you arrived.

This is a great post. I was going to jump on the Wharton undergrad thing (my boss' daughter attends there), but cspan beat me to it.

The undergraduate business school could be an important thing if you're interested in it. I applied to Pratt, then switched to econ after the first year (like about a third of the Pratt class does each year). One disappointment I had in Trinity was, as a liberal arts college, the lack of business classes. The econ department would slip a few through (and probably still does), but stuff like accounting had been drastically cut over the years. Maybe it's come back in the 12 years since I graduated?

Compare that to places like Wharton, Mason (W&M, where my father in law teaches) and McDonough (Georgetown, where I got my MBA). For me personally, I think I would have done well taking undergraduate business courses as a junior and a senior.

Economics is, of course, an important part of business school, but just one. Marketing courses, financial modeling courses, negotiations courses, organizational behavior, etc, all might give you an idea what kind of field you'd be interested in going into at graduation.

WRT the liberal / conservative thing, I don't think it's as big a deal as Throaty makes it out to be. Duke has liberal and conservative students. Throaty is right that Duke (and many other elite schools) has more liberal professors (in most departments, with the exceptions he noted), but unless you're planning on majoring in women's studies, African American studies, cultural anthropology, etc, most of your classes will probably be fairly apolitical. Granted, I majored in econ, but thinking back, my world religion classes didn't have a strong political angle, nor did my English classes, my German classes, any of the science classes, history, etc. I took a handful of classes (including in all three of the fields I mentioned above) that definitely did. I loved the public policy, AAS, and Nicholas school of the Environment classes. The CA classes were "just ok", and were on obscure subject material. The one women's studies class was the only one where I felt it was not worthwhile, and I dropped it.

Where you may be on to something, would be if you're applying to a school where you don't feel the student body is a good fit. I visited Reed College, in Oregon, and definitely got that vibe. I've heard good things about Haverford, but have no direct experience myself.

[FerryFor50]

This is a great post. I was going to jump on the Wharton undergrad thing (my boss' daughter attends there), but cspan beat me to it.

The undergraduate business school could be an important thing if you're interested in it. I applied to Pratt, then switched to econ after the first year (like about a third of the Pratt class does each year). One disappointment I had in Trinity was, as a liberal arts college, the lack of business classes. The econ department would slip a few through (and probably still does), but stuff like accounting had been drastically cut over the years. Maybe it's come back in the 12 years since I graduated?

Compare that to places like Wharton, Mason (W&M, where my father in law teaches) and McDonough (Georgetown, where I got my MBA). For me personally, I think I would have done well taking undergraduate business courses as a junior and a senior.

Economics is, of course, an important part of business school, but just one. Marketing courses, financial modeling courses, negotiations courses, organizational behavior, etc, all might give you an idea what kind of field you'd be interested in going into at graduation.

WRT the liberal / conservative thing, I don't think it's as big a deal as Throaty makes it out to be. Duke has liberal and conservative students. Throaty is right that Duke (and many other elite schools) has more liberal professors (in most departments, with the exceptions he noted), but unless you're planning on majoring in women's studies, African American studies, cultural anthropology, etc, most of your classes will probably be fairly apolitical. Granted, I majored in econ, but thinking back, my world religion classes didn't have a strong political angle, nor did my English classes, my German classes, any of the science classes, history, etc. I took a handful of classes (including in all three of the fields I mentioned above) that definitely did. I loved the public policy, AAS, and Nicholas school of the Environment classes. The CA classes were "just ok", and were on obscure subject material. The one women's studies class was the only one where I felt it was not worthwhile, and I dropped it.

Where you may be on to something, would be if you're applying to a school where you don't feel the student body is a good fit. I visited Reed College, in Oregon, and definitely got that vibe. I've heard good things about Haverford, but have no direct experience myself.

All you need to do is take a look at the list of "distinguished alumni" to see the range of political beliefs Duke has churned out.

Some of the major names? Ron Paul, Elizabeth Dole, Richard Nixon...

It's always good to get a different perspective on things, unless you just would rather listen to people who just agree with you all the time. Doesn't really make you wiser, though.

As for me, I applied to exactly ONE school - NC State. I thought I could possibly get in to Duke, but knew I wouldn't want to pay for it. I picked the more economical choice, stayed a Duke fan and di ok for myself afterwards.

Honestly, you can't really make a wrong decision in undergrad. Lots of good schools out there. It's grad school you have to worry about.

[matt1]

I see that the discussion has started to focus itself about my one side note on Haverford. Politics are not important to me because of how the teachers will teach. I just want there to be some (at least a decently-sized minority) of people who agree with me, but I am OK with not having everybody agree with me. I felt that Haverford was more of a problem of having other students more like me there (they also seemed- by in large- to not have much school spirit, and to prefer the arts to sports, etc.).

[Edouble]

Most places will probably be "too liberal" for you then, seeing as how this is higher education and few conservatives go to work higher ed, except in a few fields like Econ and Poly Sci. So too would Duke.

If this is a problem for you, I suggest a big state school in a red state. OU sounds like the ticket. The student body in particular will be very conservative, especially the whiter end of it.

Yep. Even Duke's Republicans work in the adult film industry.

[DukieInKansas]

I see that the discussion has started to focus itself about my one side note on Haverford. Politics are not important to me because of how the teachers will teach. I just want there to be some (at least a decently-sized minority) of people who agree with me, but I am OK with not having everybody agree with me. I felt that Haverford was more of a problem of having other students more like me there (they also seemed- by in large- to not have much school spirit, and to prefer the arts to sports, etc.).

Matt1 - wherever you end up, they will be fortunate to have you! Good luck in the decision making process.

[JasonEvans]

I see that the discussion has started to focus itself about my one side note on Haverford. Politics are not important to me because of how the teachers will teach. I just want there to be some (at least a decently-sized minority) of people who agree with me, but I am OK with not having everybody agree with me. I felt that Haverford was more of a problem of having other students more like me there (they also seemed- by in large- to not have much school spirit, and to prefer the arts to sports, etc.).

My son, who is in love with Haverford, will be thrilled to find out that the school is full of limousine liberals. He will fit right in

-Jason "I could see political leanings of a campus being important at a smaller school. That is one reason we were turned off by Davidson" Evans

[Wander]

Most places will probably be "too liberal" for you then, seeing as how this is higher education and few conservatives go to work higher ed, except in a few fields like Econ and Poly Sci. So too would Duke.

If this is a problem for you, I suggest a big state school in a red state. OU sounds like the ticket. The student body in particular will be very conservative, especially the whiter end of it.

You're jumping to unwarranted conclusions about the OP. It's definitely true that there are not as many conservatives on university faculty except in a few fields like you said. But he didn't say "I need the faculty and student body to be split 50/50 between democrats and republicans." There's a big difference in the political atmosphere of a small liberal arts school in the northeast, like Haverford, vs the average university. Which is fine, I'm not making a personal judgement on that, but from just the political angle, any large state school sounds like it would be fine for the OP, as would all the Ivies, Duke, Vandy, etc.