Fan Behavior

[grad_devil]

Green Shorts

Raise your hand if you were there.

I don't think I was there for this one.

A related one, that I do remember is "backward shorts". Anyone? Anyone?

[duketaylor]

Surprisingly, no mention of "Speedo Guy?" I concur that FSU used to sell beer, not sure if they still do and I never saw alcohol offered at an ACC Tourney, at least not inside. At Greensboro Kevin Grevey, who was doing the games on radio, stopped by our tailgate and drank a beer with us. Still have his business card, very nice guy. There's no telling how many beers we sold or gave away at the tourney. We'd buy extra cases just to sell, usually Natty Light.

I was present for many of the more notorious games: Herman Veal, Chris Washburn, Clyde Austin, the Boggers behind Lefty, Jim Valvano addressing the Crazies before games, etc.

Last visit to CIS against Maryland is hard to imagine, wish I'd be there. Enjoy!!

Also, I don't recall a lot of boozing before games; we might've gone to the C.I. for a couple of games of quarters, but never made it a habit of getting hammered just for a game. Alas, as far as any of you know, I was not present and had nothing to do with the foodfight

[ricks68]

I'm not sure which of us you thought was third, but I can provide a helpful lineup for you to pick him out of:

Attachment 3911

That picture with me and Ed used to hang in my office until I retired recently.

ricks

[DukieInKansas]

Not sure how I could turn that down, hoped the batch I sent at Christmas got there okay.

They were delicious!

[DukieInKansas]

Green Shorts

Raise your hand if you were there.

Green Shorts was the most memorable chant for me. No malice, just pure funny.

Also one of my favorites. Especially the next year when you would have to explain it to new students. I always saw it as a supportive cheer for the team - just keep trying. Young Mr. Pye may not have been the most skilled player on the court but he certainly tried harder than all the others.

[Jarhead]

Green Shorts

Raise your hand if you were there.

Yes, I was! And yes I was on the Mall in Washington late on a 4th of July about 25 years ago with my son and his wife and another couple, all from Duke. Among hundreds of thousands of people and somewhere near us somebody yelled, out, with gusto, "Green shorts."


Within seconds the reply was heard, and the exchange went on for nearly 10 minutes. We had to explain it to some folks sitting near us.

[Olympic Fan]

The cheer that I remember from that game was, in place of going around the stadium and the crowd on each side of the court yelling, in sequence, "D - U - K - E", the cheer became "R - A - P - E". But, do give the Crazies credit for a great recovery, as at the next game, after sufficient scolding from multiple sources, especially the Post/Washington media, some Crazies showed up a the UNC game wear halos, signs declaring "Welcome Dean and revered guests," and, when the refs made some terrible calls, the cheer went up, "We beg to differ... we beg to differ..."

What needs to be pointed out is the context of the Maryland game ... and the game that followed -- after "Uncle Terry" and Coach K urged the Crazies to behave better. The next game -- as you point out -- was the game with the "We beg to differ" cheer (replacing the familiar at the time "Bull***t), the "Welcome Honored Guests" etc. Students wore haloes that they had fashioned out of coathangers and aluminum foil.

But the game itself was the famous "Double-Standard" game. Unbeaten and No. 1 UNC trailed Duke for most of the game. At halftime, UNC assistant coach Bill Guthridge chased the officials off the court, screaming obscenities at them. Late in the second half, Dean thought a foul had been assessed to the wrong player and he wanted Tommy Hunt (the ACC director of football officials at the time) to sound the buzzer to get the officials' attention. Hunt pointed out that he was not supposed to sound the buzzer when the ball was in play and he would get the officials over to check it at the next dead ball. That wasn't good enough for Dean, who reached across the scorer's table and tried to hit the buzzer himself. Instead, he gave UNC a quick 20 points on the scoreboard ... and caused such a commotion that the officials stopped the game ... Dean got no penalty for pounding on the scorer's table.

After the game, Krzyzewski contrasted the "double standard" that exists in perception around the ACC. His kids were crucified by the press for their behavior in the Maryland game, but no matter what UNC and Dean Smith did, no matter how outrageously he behaved, nobody ever took them to task.

Two more interesting points about that Duke-UNC game (after the Duke-Maryland game): It was not on TV, maybe the last Duke-UNC fame that was not televised. It was originally part of the ACC's Season Ticket package -- a pay for view plan that blew up in the face of violent fan opposition.

The other thing I remember about it, is that two days after the loss to UNC (which was Duke's third straight ACC loss), Tom Butters called Krzyzewski into his office and tore up his contract and gave him a new long-term deal. Krzyzewski was 52-51 as Duke's head coach at that point.

Butters gets a lot of credit for hiring the unknown Army coach. But he should get just as much praise for that moment in 1984, when he made a long-term commitment to a guy who was basically .500 at that point in his career.

[MulletMan]

Weird. I always thought there were 3 of your guys. And I'm pretty sure one of them was my biology TA.

Those were my best Cameron days - when that cohort of grad students and their whiteboard guided the undergrads. It really isn't the same now. The Cameron Crazies are still insanely energetic and use the core chants, but a lot of the creativity that arose from that grad cohort is gone.

Awww... warm fuzzies. Thanks, man. Its too bad that the grads have fallen off. The fact that the sides and two ends were able to communicate so well was what made that time in Cameron work... especially with the multiple sided chants, and the call/response ones as well.

Your Bio TA was The Viking Guy.

[Rich]

And somewhere, safely put away, I still have my Ken Denlinger WaPost "majoring in smart..." t-shirt. (Really cheap t-shirt, but a classic, up there with "Denard and Banks, so long and thanks" - before they re-screened 'em for the ncaa.)

-jk

I can't say I have mine, but remember the Ken Denlinger shirt well. I believe that although the shirt didn't specifically say "Cameron Crazies" (it said something like "Cameron Chaos"?), the term was derived from that shirt and the rest, as they say, is history.

[throatybeard]

Weird. I always thought there were 3 of your guys. And I'm pretty sure one of them was my biology TA.

Those were my best Cameron days - when that cohort of grad students and their whiteboard guided the undergrads. It really isn't the same now. The Cameron Crazies are still insanely energetic and use the core chants, but a lot of the creativity that arose from that grad cohort is gone.

To clarify, as with many successful ensembles, the cast rotated over time. I entered PhDskool in 2000-01 and finished in 2004, so I can only talk about those four seasons with any authority.

In 2000-01, Big Tall Backwards Hat Guy (Devon Ritch, I think his name was) and his crew still led the section, him and I think two buddies. They all graduated at once. I think they were law-talking guys. They don't get enough credit. They set a precedent that the area under the south goal was almost as important as halfcourt. I don't think the Phalanx would have happened, or have happened nearly as easily if they hadn't paved the way. In the years immediately before that, all anyone cared about was section 17.

We stood in line behind them, and a couple times they had to get there a tad late, we gave them frontsies out of respect. Later on, folks would cut us some slack if not all of us were there because of work. Like for example, four of us were in line, but I had to teach an evening class, and no one would bust on us for space-saving. We appreciated that.

2001-02 was Viking Guy's first year in gradskool. He had been working in Admissions prior to that. We knew each other from Ugrad--we were class of Wojo. He attended the UVA game with me in 2001 when he was working on the gorilla suit thing, and I wore the gorilla suit. But we were behind BTBHG's crew then. By 2002, Mullet, Viking, Drew Brown and I were routinely down front, often with Will Tyson somewhere near, and usually with Britt Fisher somewhere around. Kesseler was often a ways off to the side with his female friend whose name I forget. She was in math, tall, brown hair, she had a dog around quite a bit, and she got a job or a postdoc at Utah at some point. The regular-season-final whuppin of Carolina was a high point.

The Phalanx as such didn't truly coalesce until 2002-03. By that point, Brown had finished Lawskool and was gone (or upstairs, because he's a magician when it comes to the ticket market), Kesseler joined the group, and we had a fairly solidified core with Viking, Mullet, me, Fisher, and Kesseler (aka "Baldy), always standing in the same order from left to right under the south goal. Nearby, but not acting nearly as ridiculously, were the woman to become Mrs Mullet--Laura, Julianne Weinzimmer, sometimes KimRo, Tyson, and Andy Baraniak. LawTalkingGuy (John Fred) and Phil Bezanson were around a lot too. Fisher finished his MDiv in 2003 and left the group. The guys you see in Ricks68's picture are this group. This was dubbed "the four fat guy phalanx," as I wasn't yet deemed fat. (I am now). I'm pretty sure both Viking and Mullet are much slimmer than they were then. Wish I could say the same.

In 2003-04, Fred and Bezanson always stood to my left and Mullet and Viking were in the center with Baldy to their left, and usually our female associates and Baraniak behind us a row. This is the lineup you see with our friend Keggy in the graphic. I think Tyson started moving around, I forget. I'd have to ask him on Facebook. That was a really great year--the team was amazing, we'd polished our shtick together before, we had great contacts in the Ugrad section, primarily Wine, Majdi, and Roller, we won the home games against UNC and Maryland.

That year, I was 27, and I knew I couldn't do that jump-and-scream-for-hours thing much longer. (Remember, we did warmups too). I think some people are fortunate to lose their youth in a gradual fashion. Me, I knew I was done or about to be done rather abruptly. By February I knew I was going to MSU for a one-year visiting gig, so my unfinished dissertation was a gun pointed at my head, and I knew that Duke-UNC game that we won 70-65 would the end of any regular basketball attendance on my part. There are certain points in life when you foresee that everything will be different forever after that. Like the last week before you have your first kid. I knew I was done. I have a framed photo of that UNC game in my house, even though I've gotten less and less fanatical about Duke sports.

Fred and Bezanson graduated from lawskool in Spring 2004 and I graduated in Summer 2004 and moved to Mississippi in August. Tyson finished sometime between Spring 2004 and Spring 2005 and he and I went to graduation together in May 2005. I also came back in a rather flaccid fashion for one game in 2005 (Clemson), and I think Viking was out of town and Mullet and Baldy were there but no one else of the core group was--it was a break game. Thanks to Merry for the ticket that got me in, and the DVD of the game.

For 2004-05 and 2005-06, you'd have to ask Mullet and Viking about that. They still did it in 2004-05 but I'm not sure about 2005-06, and Viking finished in 2006-07 but I think he didn't do the Viking thing because he was finishing his diss, and he quit the Cameron thing after 2005-06. I'm not sure if they drafted new cast members. I'm also not sure when Kesseler finished. Boswell gave me a ticket upstairs in 2006-07 for the JJ retirement game, and Viking gave me a ride, but he didn't go to the game.

Later, after Viking was gone, some kid started wearing a Viking helmet in the same area. This poor guy fell on stairs at Duke, and if what I've heard is accurate, fell, busted his head and died.

Point being, it was a very fluid situation. We were lucky that:

(a) BTBHG's group paved the way for us
(b) The turnover was gradual for a while
(c) We always got to be in the same spot, so people knew where to look for us
(d) We had some boss Ugrads to collaborate with
(e) The team was always good in those years

And yes, we consumed a LOT of ethyl alcohol before those games. How else do you act like a pogo stick when you're 27? 19, sure? 27, I need a little something else to get me through this. Past 30, no one sane acts like that. I'm 37, and if I tried to act like that now, I'd have an infarction.

[Newton_14]

I'm not sure which of us you thought was third, but I can provide a helpful lineup for you to pick him out of:

Attachment 3911

I assume "Kovy" is our "Mulletman"?

[greybeard]

At great risk (what more can they throw at me), from afar, Duke began a trend in college basketball that personally I find creepy. What it began was the pointing at players, yelling stuff, no matter how clever, and I even want to say the waving behind the opposing team's basket (not sure about the latter). The chants at opposing players were undoubtedly clever, heady, but were and are intended to sting, and that to me is bad form. What ultimately followed was an attempt to emulate, tit for tat, only the fans were not nearly so clever, and it Maryland's case has been downright ugly and offensive and not just in basketball. I always thought that fans trying to make themselves part of the game, in this fashion, was a step too far from what the historic 12th man could ever embrace as appropriate.

I did not tract the bottle throwing and worse at Maryland basketball games. I attended enough soccer games to have had my fill, especially the constant verbal taunts and use of the f bomb in nonstop and group fashion at opposing team goalies.

I always thought that here were some idiots who lacked the creativity, the brains, to put out something nuanced and clever that offended them when they saw their players endure at Cameron. Polite it was/is not. Welcoming of an opponent without whom a game does not take place it is not. The Lakota warriors honored those whom they did battle with, and, when victorious, would take nothing for themselves from those that they had slain. Phil Jackson used Lakota ritual and stories of how they dealt with their opponents to inspire the play that brought Chicago its initial championships.

There was a time when their was no booing, no one made a sound or gesture to disrupt a foul shot, and no collective targeting of opposing team's players took place. I think that a better time.

There is of course no going back, and I am not now suggesting that Duke go it alone. The current culture is what it is. However, where it began is where it began, and I think that that was probably at Cameron, at least that was for a long time that the only place I saw it happening, at that was for more than a while.

I think that Maryland's move from the ACC is a good thing if only on the chance that, outside the comfort zone of it's natural enemies, it might clean up its act. I believe I said that here, noting that perhaps the specter of particularly hostel environments in stadiums of 100,000 fans might provide an incentive. Also, they play their games a little rougher in that Conference. It could get real ugly in a way that Maryland players would not appreciate. I did not mean to suggest that players would go out to injure Maryland players, but rather to make sure they knew that what they were getting was something special. Actually, I think that the move away from the ACC into foreign territory should be enough. The stuff that has been going on at Maryland makes me sick.

Perhaps the issue being addressed in this thread might be better served if it were broader.

[Des Esseintes]

Phil Jackson, all-time needler of opposing players and coaches, partook of the Lakota ideal exactly as often as was convenient.

[throatybeard]

Newton, yes.

Greybeard, I'd be rather surprised if Duke invented pointing at someone and shouting stuff. I know we think we invented everything, but we didn't.

[Duvall]

The early days.

The original reason for using a cage was largely forgotten by the 1920s; many professionals of the time believed its purpose was to protect players from enraged fans. They had ample reason: Pro basketball in the '20s was no place for shrinking violets. It was considered fair play to drive the man with the ball into the wire or rope, especially if he was shooting. When a home-team player was thus clobbered, it was not unusual for fans to join the resulting fray. The players entered and left the cage through doors at either end, and fans sometimes fought their way in using the same openings.

Cameron pointing, though.

[BD80]

At great risk (what more can they throw at me), from afar, Duke began a trend in college basketball that personally I find creepy. What it began was the pointing at players, yelling stuff, no matter how clever, and I even want to say the waving behind the opposing team's basket ...

How about when they started keeping track of how many points each team scored, and declaring ONLY the team with the most points the winner?

[Newton_14]

To clarify, as with many successful ensembles, the cast rotated over time. I entered PhDskool in 2000-01 and finished in 2004, so I can only talk about those four seasons with any authority.

In 2000-01, Big Tall Backwards Hat Guy (Devon Ritch, I think his name was) and his crew still led the section, him and I think two buddies. They all graduated at once. I think they were law-talking guys. They don't get enough credit. They set a precedent that the area under the south goal was almost as important as halfcourt. I don't think the Phalanx would have happened, or have happened nearly as easily if they hadn't paved the way. In the years immediately before that, all anyone cared about was section 17.

We stood in line behind them, and a couple times they had to get there a tad late, we gave them frontsies out of respect. Later on, folks would cut us some slack if not all of us were there because of work. Like for example, four of us were in line, but I had to teach an evening class, and no one would bust on us for space-saving. We appreciated that.

2001-02 was Viking Guy's first year in gradskool. He had been working in Admissions prior to that. We knew each other from Ugrad--we were class of Wojo. He attended the UVA game with me in 2001 when he was working on the gorilla suit thing, and I wore the gorilla suit. But we were behind BTBHG's crew then. By 2002, Mullet, Viking, Drew Brown and I were routinely down front, often with Will Tyson somewhere near, and usually with Britt Fisher somewhere around. Kesseler was often a ways off to the side with his female friend whose name I forget. She was in math, tall, brown hair, she had a dog around quite a bit, and she got a job or a postdoc at Utah at some point. The regular-season-final whuppin of Carolina was a high point.

The Phalanx as such didn't truly coalesce until 2002-03. By that point, Brown had finished Lawskool and was gone (or upstairs, because he's a magician when it comes to the ticket market), Kesseler joined the group, and we had a fairly solidified core with Viking, Mullet, me, Fisher, and Kesseler (aka "Baldy), always standing in the same order from left to right under the south goal. Nearby, but not acting nearly as ridiculously, were the woman to become Mrs Mullet--Laura, Julianne Weinzimmer, sometimes KimRo, Tyson, and Andy Baraniak. LawTalkingGuy (John Fred) and Phil Bezanson were around a lot too. Fisher finished his MDiv in 2003 and left the group. The guys you see in Ricks68's picture are this group. This was dubbed "the four fat guy phalanx," as I wasn't yet deemed fat. (I am now). I'm pretty sure both Viking and Mullet are much slimmer than they were then. Wish I could say the same.

In 2003-04, Fred and Bezanson always stood to my left and Mullet and Viking were in the center with Baldy to their left, and usually our female associates and Baraniak behind us a row. This is the lineup you see with our friend Keggy in the graphic. I think Tyson started moving around, I forget. I'd have to ask him on Facebook. That was a really great year--the team was amazing, we'd polished our shtick together before, we had great contacts in the Ugrad section, primarily Wine, Majdi, and Roller, we won the home games against UNC and Maryland.

That year, I was 27, and I knew I couldn't do that jump-and-scream-for-hours thing much longer. (Remember, we did warmups too). I think some people are fortunate to lose their youth in a gradual fashion. Me, I knew I was done or about to be done rather abruptly. By February I knew I was going to MSU for a one-year visiting gig, so my unfinished dissertation was a gun pointed at my head, and I knew that Duke-UNC game that we won 70-65 would the end of any regular basketball attendance on my part. There are certain points in life when you foresee that everything will be different forever after that. Like the last week before you have your first kid. I knew I was done. I have a framed photo of that UNC game in my house, even though I've gotten less and less fanatical about Duke sports.

Fred and Bezanson graduated from lawskool in Spring 2004 and I graduated in Summer 2004 and moved to Mississippi in August. Tyson finished sometime between Spring 2004 and Spring 2005 and he and I went to graduation together in May 2005. I also came back in a rather flaccid fashion for one game in 2005 (Clemson), and I think Viking was out of town and Mullet and Baldy were there but no one else of the core group was--it was a break game. Thanks to Merry for the ticket that got me in, and the DVD of the game.

For 2004-05 and 2005-06, you'd have to ask Mullet and Viking about that. They still did it in 2004-05 but I'm not sure about 2005-06, and Viking finished in 2006-07 but I think he didn't do the Viking thing because he was finishing his diss, and he quit the Cameron thing after 2005-06. I'm not sure if they drafted new cast members. I'm also not sure when Kesseler finished. Boswell gave me a ticket upstairs in 2006-07 for the JJ retirement game, and Viking gave me a ride, but he didn't go to the game.

Later, after Viking was gone, some kid started wearing a Viking helmet in the same area. This poor guy fell on stairs at Duke, and if what I've heard is accurate, fell, busted his head and died.

Point being, it was a very fluid situation. We were lucky that:

(a) BTBHG's group paved the way for us
(b) The turnover was gradual for a while
(c) We always got to be in the same spot, so people knew where to look for us
(d) We had some boss Ugrads to collaborate with
(e) The team was always good in those years

And yes, we consumed a LOT of ethyl alcohol before those games. How else do you act like a pogo stick when you're 27? 19, sure? 27, I need a little something else to get me through this. Past 30, no one sane acts like that. I'm 37, and if I tried to act like that now, I'd have an infarction.

Throaty buddy, you missed a classic tonight. I wish you could have been there. Mullet too. The old girl was rocking. The student turn out was truly awesome (well done Native and crew0 and the atmosphere was electric and outstanding. It was just short of a normal UNC crowd. Standing room bleachers were packed to the max and the students were on the A Game. A joy to see. I texted my wife shortly after settling in and said this is awesome. A great Cameron crowd. I think it would have rekindled some of the old fire you used to have back in the day. And the players needed every bit of that energy to pull out the hard fought victory against a Terp team playing at a high level.

Not sure if this is relevant but wanted to share my personal feeling on something. I do everything possible to get a ticket to every single game. However, when the only ticket available is for the standing room tickets in 17 and 19, I turn them down every time and just watch on TV. Reason being, I just don't feel right being in those sections. One, I was never a student at Duke, and two, I am well beyond College age. To me those sections are just special and should be reserved for real Crazies, aka DUke Students. I recognize that during Christmas break they have to open it up to the public and put fake Crazies in the seats, but I cannot tell you how ridiculous the 30, 40, 50, 60 something aged folks look in those sections. Most are dying for the standing halfway into the first half, and trying to keep up with the cheers. (Most don;t and end up just staring at the game and not cheering at all. Anyway, maybe it is not fair/right to hold that view, but I promise you the day will never come when i use one of those tickets even if it means being relegated to Tv at home. just ain't gonna do it... Not my place to be there. I do feel comfortable in the upperbowl and I am an Iron Duke, so no problem being a "Crustie"

It may sound nuts but that is just how I feel about it...

[tbyers11]

Throaty buddy, you missed a classic tonight. I wish you could have been there. Mullet too. The old girl was rocking. The student turn out was truly awesome (well done Native and crew0 and the atmosphere was electric and outstanding. It was just short of a normal UNC crowd. Standing room bleachers were packed to the max and the students were on the A Game. A joy to see. I texted my wife shortly after settling in and said this is awesome. A great Cameron crowd. I think it would have rekindled some of the old fire you used to have back in the day. And the players needed every bit of that energy to pull out the hard fought victory against a Terp team playing at a high level.

Newton_14, Glad to hear that Cameron was rocking. From my perspective at home watching on TV, the crowd didn't seem that loud at all. I know that the TV sound can vary greatly from game to game but I have watched many games where the crowd seemed more into it and loud than tonight. Do any other TV watchers have an opinion? I have a decent TV and sound setup but do I need to get a better one or did ESPN just turn down the ambient noise?

[mpj96]

Newton_14, Glad to hear that Cameron was rocking. From my perspective at home watching on TV, the crowd didn't seem that loud at all. I know that the TV sound can vary greatly from game to game but I have watched many games where the crowd seemed more into it and loud than tonight. Do any other TV watchers have an opinion? I have a decent TV and sound setup but do I need to get a better one or did ESPN just turn down the ambient noise?

I was at CIS and came away with a very different impression than Newton_14. For long stretches of the game the crowd was very muted. The kids were dressed up but quiet by normal standards.

The end of the game the crowd came alive, upper and lower.

[Olympic Fan]

I was at CIS and came away with a very different impression than Newton_14. For long stretches of the game the crowd was very muted. The kids were dressed up but quiet by normal standards.

The end of the game the crowd came alive, upper and lower.

I share this view. In fact, at one point in the second half, just as Maryland was starting their comeback, I turned to a friend and said, "I've never seen Cameron this quiet for a big game."

The crowd was much like the Pitt crowd two weeks ago -- they were loud when something good happened, but would lose focus when things weren't going their way. They finally got up and made some noise after Rodney's two free throws cut it to 67-66 ... that was the first defensive possession that generated any heat from the crowd.

Plus, I was hoping for some cleverness for Maryland's final visit ... nothing but stale stuff -- an early chant of Not Our Rival and a late chant of ACC ... ACC (very short because he couldn't really celebrate until Amile was fouled with 1.1 second left). Not even a chorus of "Amen".

VERY weak sauce from the Crazies.