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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal View Post
    I agree. DON'T READ BELOW IF YOU HAVEN'T WATCHED LAST NIGHT'S EPISODE. I think we're good on here to talk about what's actually happened on the show, and I haven't read the books, but it'll still spoil the episode if you haven't seen it yet.






    Pretty much everyone at that party had (for the world of GoT) plausible motive, including Tywin and Cersei. Tyrion's too obvious, and even if he had been planning something, once he'd been put front and center and made to be the goblet bearer, he's smart enough to know everyone would suspect him if he went through with it.
    Yeah... the lead up had a real Who Shot Mr. Burns kinda vibe.

  2. #22
    Wow! Glad to see Geoffrey go... He was so unpredictable, my wife was nervous every time he was on screen.

    I don't know who did it. Crazy. My best educated guess would, like some others have said, be Tywin. I think he would see Geoff as just too crazy to hold the throne... But I really question if he would kill his grandson.

    Mind blowing.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Ash View Post
    Wow! Glad to see Geoffrey go... He was so unpredictable, my wife was nervous every time he was on screen.

    I don't know who did it. Crazy. My best educated guess would, like some others have said, be Tywin. I think he would see Geoff as just too crazy to hold the throne... But I really question if he would kill his grandson.

    Mind blowing.
    I think Tywin would kill Joffrey in a second if he came to the conclusion that Joffrey couldn't be controlled and would put the throne at risk of rebellion. If he kills Joffrey, that makes the more-easily-controlled Cersei queen regent again until her younger son comes of age, a situation in which Tywin would rule the kingdom as the Hand. If he could get rid of Tyrion in the process, all the better.

    However, despite Tywin's sly smile when Cersei was accusing Tyrion, I don't think it was him. The flagon from which the wine was poured was directly in front of Tywin and Cersei. He's not the type to put the poison in himself, and he certainly wouldn't dare do it with Cersei sitting right next to him (and there is no way Cersei would have plotted to kill her own son).

    I'm going with Sansa, the fool, and the necklace. When Sansa took the cup out from under the table, she had her left hand holding the cup, her right hand over the cup. I think that display mocking Robb getting killed was enough to finally motivate her out of her catatonic woeful state and do something. Whatever the original plan that she and Donton had, when the cup rolled under the table, she saw her opportunity and took it.

    I also doubt that getting Tyrion blamed was part of Sansa's thought process. That seems too cruel for her. She may not love him, but I don't think she's become ruthless enough to intentionally frame someone who's been nice to her at all times.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by A-Tex Devil View Post
    Yeah... the lead up had a real Who Shot Mr. Burns kinda vibe.
    Or "Who Shot J.R.?" Martin was a TV writer during the heyday of the primetime soap - there are a lot of influences in ASOIAF and Game of Thrones, and Dallas and Dynasty are among them.

  5. #25
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    A note about spoilers in this thread

    This thread is for discussing the show in real time. It is not for discussing the book series.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by davekay1971 View Post
    I'm going with Sansa, the fool, and the necklace. When Sansa took the cup out from under the table, she had her left hand holding the cup, her right hand over the cup. I think that display mocking Robb getting killed was enough to finally motivate her out of her catatonic woeful state and do something. Whatever the original plan that she and Donton had, when the cup rolled under the table, she saw her opportunity and took it.
    I think this is where I shake out, too, the more I think about it. She hit the depths of despair and in doing so became more bold than she ever otherwise would have. In the end, contrarily, I don't think the Tyrells (or the Martells, for that matter) would have felt the desperation necessary to take such a risk right now, in such a public place. Their best course of action would seem to be hope Margery can have a son, and then be rid of Joffrey, unless they're just so afraid of his monstrosity that they fear for her life. She'd been pretty capable of redirecting his scariness, though.

    It just seems like Occam's Razor that Sansa did the deed. Joffrey was clearly poisoned, so we know that someone at the wedding did it. I suppose it could have been in the pie, but that was for the entire party, so I don't think the killer would take the risk that Joffrey isn't the first to take a bite - what if he held his fork out for Margery? It has to be the wine, and since it's in shared containers it had to be that Joffrey's cup alone held the poison. That really points to Sansa. No one else had access to his cup other than Tyrion, and she had access under a table and out of sight. It was pretty clever directing on the show - I took Sansa's picking up the cup and giving it to Tyrion as pity and finally understanding his station, since I didn't know what was about to happen. If I'd known Joffrey was about to drink poison, I'd probably have viewed her actions totally differently.

    I also don't think Sansa acted alone. Just not in character. The fool was right there to whisk her away - he had to be in on it - but I don't have the sense that a court jester would have the ability to procure poison. It seems more likely there's a skilled operator as the prime mover in a scheme to kill a Lannister king. I don't see why the Tyrells would have conspired with her when they could have just hired a pro. Oberon Martell doesn't even know her. Obviously none of the Lannisters would have brought her in. That's why I think one of the two spymasters is in cahoots with her, but I can't decide which one. Varys has better and more direct access to her, of course, so I lean his direction, although he's not necessarily the murderous kind and it's totally in character for Littlefinger to manipulate her this way so I can't rule it out. But how would he speak to her/get her to trust him?

    I do think, unlike davekay, that Tyrion was planned collateral damage for Sansa, however. She doesn't seem to realize that being married to Tyrion is about as good as she could reasonably hope for at the moment, and throwing him under the bus looks like a way out of that marriage. She still seems idealistic enough to think she could marry Loras and live happily ever after or something. She couldn't have planned on Joffrey making him a cup bearer, which makes it a perfect frame up, but I bet she figured Cersei would suspect Tyrion, anyway.

    I suppose there's one other outlying possibility - Stannis and Melisandre. She did that whole birthing a vapor monster thing with Renly. Maybe there's magic at play here, too? That would be pretty lame dramatically, to have such a deus ex machina, so I'm hoping that's not it.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Ash View Post
    My best educated guess would, like some others have said, be Tywin. I think he would see Geoff as just too crazy to hold the throne... But I really question if he would kill his grandson.
    Tywin would be my favored outcome, so I kind of hope it's somehow him despite my growing sense that Sansa's the only one who had real opportunity logistically. Would be a great turn of events to see him act so decisively as to put down Ol' Yeller, and I would love to see what happens when Cersei and Jaime start to suspect him, since their family dynamics are already so interesting. I think he'd probably prefer to avoid the embarrassment that comes with it happening at the wedding, so I put him lower on the list of possibilities.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Dev11 View Post
    This thread is for discussing the show in real time. It is not for discussing the book series.
    Really? I didn't notice that you started the thread, and I didn't notice this rule. I certainly didn't see anything saying I couldn't relate the book to the show. Ouch. As a guy who's moderated a lot of boards, deleting my post seems awfully heavy-handed to me. I didn't reveal anything that hadn't already been posted.

    But, I'll play your game. As a watcher of the show, I think davekay is closest.
    Last edited by bjornolf; 04-15-2014 at 03:13 PM.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by bjornolf View Post
    Really? I didn't notice that you started the thread, and I didn't notice this rule. I certainly didn't see anything saying I couldn't relate the book to the show. Ouch. As a guy who's moderated a lot of boards, deleting my post seems awfully heavy-handed to me. I didn't reveal anything that hadn't already been posted.

    But, I'll play your game. As a watcher of the show, I think davekay is closest.
    First, I was not the one who deleted your original post. That was done by somebody else who agreed that your post contained spoilers for the crowd that is discovering the story through the show. You did, in fact, reveal things that hadn't been in the show. There is a difference between somebody speculating on what happens next (our Breaking Bad thread had a lot of this) and what you were doing in that post. There really isn't a way to deal with spoilers other than deleting the post.

    Second, no, I did not start this thread, but you'll note that its entitled "Game of Thrones 2014" and therefore only relates to the television show. If you would like to discuss the book series, feel free to start a thread like "A Song of Ice and Fire."

    PM me if you have any issues.

  10. #30
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    I'm not understanding these guesses. Sansa? Tyrion? Tywin? Cersci? Those are terrible guesses IMO!

    Sansa: too nice, innocent, upset and doesn't plan very far ahead.

    Tyrion: yeah sure Jeoff embarrassed him a few times but we all know he is super clever. He would gain nothing and he woul know he would be suspect number one. Too smart IMO

    Tywin: only one with a possibility to do the deed but I just don't see it. He really didn't care how Jeoff ran the kingdom as long as he ran the gold and military. Besides Margery would have been the brains for running the kingdom while Jeof played king.

    His own mom: least likely! He was her son and she cares for nothing in the world other than her kids. Yeah sure she likes her brother and she loves power but her kids seem to take precedence.
    "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge" -Stephen Hawking

  11. #31
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    My guesses in no order:

    The Dornish, Lord Varys (the spider), Little Finger, an unknown character.

    The Dornish seem to obvious to me so I doubt them. Besides Marcella Lannister (sp?)is betrothed to one of the princes.

    Varys is always playing another game and I can't figure him out.

    Little Finger has been gone awhile now with no word on him. I doubt he lost his connections when he left but I'm not sure what he would gain.
    "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge" -Stephen Hawking

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Dev11 View Post
    First, I was not the one who deleted your original post. That was done by somebody else who agreed that your post contained spoilers for the crowd that is discovering the story through the show. You did, in fact, reveal things that hadn't been in the show. There is a difference between somebody speculating on what happens next (our Breaking Bad thread had a lot of this) and what you were doing in that post. There really isn't a way to deal with spoilers other than deleting the post.

    Second, no, I did not start this thread, but you'll note that its entitled "Game of Thrones 2014" and therefore only relates to the television show. If you would like to discuss the book series, feel free to start a thread like "A Song of Ice and Fire."

    PM me if you have any issues.
    Fair enough. I take your point. I don't know how much I could really spoil though. The books didn't even have a necklace.

  13. #33
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    I'm on board with Sansa and outside help.

  14. #34
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    Then again after re watching Tyrion did handle his cup twice.

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal View Post
    I suppose there's one other outlying possibility - Stannis and Melisandre. She did that whole birthing a vapor monster thing with Renly. Maybe there's magic at play here, too? That would be pretty lame dramatically, to have such a deus ex machina, so I'm hoping that's not it.
    This reminds me of a scene towards the end of Season 3.

    Stannis says to Davos, “I saw a vision in the flames, a great battle in the snow. I saw it. And you saw whatever she gave birth to. I never believed, but when you see the truth, when it’s right there in front of you, as real as these iron bars, how can you deny that her god is real?” Stannis then proceeds to throw three leeches into the flames at Melisandre's direction, reciting the names of three people as they burn: "The usurper, Robb Stark. The usurper, Balon Greyjoy. The usurper, Joffrey Baratheon."


  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by El_Diablo View Post
    This reminds me of a scene towards the end of Season 3.

    Stannis says to Davos, “I saw a vision in the flames, a great battle in the snow. I saw it. And you saw whatever she gave birth to. I never believed, but when you see the truth, when it’s right there in front of you, as real as these iron bars, how can you deny that her god is real?” Stannis then proceeds to throw three leeches into the flames at Melisandre's direction, reciting the names of three people as they burn: "The usurper, Robb Stark. The usurper, Balon Greyjoy. The usurper, Joffrey Baratheon."

    You know, if you can see the future, it would be awfully easy to take credit for things you know will happen anyway.

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duvall View Post
    You know, if you can see the future, it would be awfully easy to take credit for things you know will happen anyway.
    I am not sure I understand...this scene already happened. And I am not taking credit for anything. My point is that, if it turns out that Melisandre and Stannis were the ones who killed Joffrey, that it's not just a lame deus ex machina...the show has clearly laid the groundwork for this possibility.

  18. #38
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    I had decided i was going to go get my wife's books and find out.she took them to work and put them in her desk.:/
    I'm torn between finding out whom did this and what khaleesi is doing.

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by El_Diablo View Post
    I am not sure I understand...this scene already happened. And I am not taking credit for anything. My point is that, if it turns out that Melisandre and Stannis were the ones who killed Joffrey, that it's not just a lame deus ex machina...the show has clearly laid the groundwork for this possibility.
    No, I was raising the possibility that Melisandre could have been taking credit for deaths she knew would happen anyway.

  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duvall View Post
    No, I was raising the possibility that Melisandre could have been taking credit for deaths she knew would happen anyway.
    Ah, that makes sense. Good point.

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