MBB: Duke 79, Georgia Tech 57 - Post-Game Thread

[Duvall]

As a 35 year fan, albeit with a series of flames for my contrarion view, we have always been a perimeter oriented team except when we had real big men like Boozer, Brand, Laettner, Gminski.

Add Ferry to the mix and you've got what, 15 seasons out of 36? That's almost half the time.

[CDu]

Two games in a row where the score at a point in the 2nd half was Duke 60 and Opponent 50; certainly different outcomes from that point

Factors in the different outcome?
Better defense, better energy, better rebounding

Also, hitting shots. That was key.

Also, Georgia Tech is just MUCH less talented offensively than Notre Dame.

The 60-50 score in the Notre Dame game was achieved because both teams were playing great offense and we were just slightly more effective. The end result in the Notre Dame game was because Notre Dame continued to score well and we didn't.

The 60-50 score in the Georgia Tech game was achieved in part because we struggled a bit offensively while Georgia Tech was getting lots of scores. The end result in that game was because water finally found its level on both ends of the floor (Tech realized they stink offensively and we started hitting shots).

We did play better defense in the Tech game, but we did so against a MUCH less capable offense.

[FerryFor50]

Also, Georgia Tech is just MUCH less talented offensively than Notre Dame.

The 60-50 score in the Notre Dame game was achieved because both teams were playing great offense and we were just slightly more effective. The end result in the Notre Dame game was because Notre Dame continued to score well and we didn't.

The 60-50 score in the Georgia Tech game was achieved in part because we struggled a bit offensively while Georgia Tech was getting lots of scores. The end result in that game was because water finally found its level on both ends of the floor (Tech realized they stink offensively and we started hitting shots).

We did play better defense in the Tech game, but we did so against a MUCH less capable offense.

Part of the better defense, as you mentioned, was GT going away from what was working - pounding it inside. Perhaps that was Duke denying that, but I think it was more of GT panicking and jacking up contested jumpers. Much like Duke did in the waning minutes against ND...

[CDu]

Add Ferry to the mix and you've got what, 15 seasons out of 36? That's almost half the time.

Throw Parks' junior and senior years and Plumlee's senior year in there and you're right at 50%.

Of course, one might counter that we were actually still a perimeter-oriented team when we had Williams, Brand, Boozer, and Plumlee (and that we perhaps underutilized Brand and Boozer).

[wilko]

Add Ferry to the mix and you've got what, 15 seasons out of 36? That's almost half the time.

No Love for Parks? ...

[CDu]

After watching Miller torch Jabari for 3 or 4 baskets in the first half, I specifically kept an eye on Miller when Ga Tech had the ball. Amile stayed with him, bodied him, bumped him, forced him a step or two further from the basket. That's good interior D, as long as you don't get called for a foul. He may not have made Miller miss many shots, but he was certainly a factor in Miller not getting so many. And also a factor in him taking more low-percentage 15 foot jumpers. Miller looked frustrated in the 2nd half, and not just because he wasn't getting the ball.

Perhaps if Georgia Tech had force fed Miller in the post it would have been tougher for Amile, but in my opinion he totally slowed him down and, as I said before, played pretty good D on him.

Part of the better defense, as you mentioned, was GT going away from what was working - pounding it inside. Perhaps that was Duke denying that, but I think it was more of GT panicking and jacking up contested jumpers. Much like Duke did in the waning minutes against ND...

I watched the interior play on Miller pretty closely throughout, and I saw him repeatedly getting good post position but not getting the ball. That occurred regardless of who covered him. Yes, Jefferson battled with Miller, but he didn't prevent Miller from getting position any moreso than Parker. I agree with Ferry that Miller's lack of scoring was much more a result of Tech just running poor offense and not going to the guy who wasn't guarded.

The times that Parker got torched early were not because he didn't battle Miller for post position, but instead because he tried to jump the entry pass (leaving Miller an uncontested layup) or because he bit on the pass fake by Miller (leaving Miller an uncontested hook shot).

I give Jefferson a TON of credit for his work on the boards (preventing Miller from offensive rebounds) and for battling inside. But I don't think he did anything noteworthy in guarding Miller in the post (he did have a nice helpside block on Miller late in the game when Parker was covering Miller). I really do think it was the case of Georgia Tech just failing to consistently identify and exploit the mismatch.

[tommy]

I think some of the interior defense (and perceived defensive rebounding issues) also come from over-commits by Jabari and others to try to block a shot. They leave their man entirely, abandon rebounding position and totally sell out to challenge the shot. More often than not, the shot either goes in, or the board goes directly to the man they left. More discipline is needed on the inside and these guys need to understand that no one on the team is an elite enough shot blocker to keep taking that risk.

Jabari's problem isn't trying to block shots that he has no real chance to block. Rather, a couple of times per game, he is out of position in guarding the post, tries to compensate by going over the top but he's too late, and the opposing big easily seals him off, and receives the simple pass for the easy layup. It's defensive positioning with him. Georgia Tech barely got any offensive rebounds against us last night. But they did get a number of very high quality interior shots. And Jabari's positioning, as in a number of prior games, was one of the primary causes.

[FerryFor50]

Jabari's problem isn't trying to block shots that he has no real chance to block. Rather, a couple of times per game, he is out of position in guarding the post, tries to compensate by going over the top but he's too late, and the opposing big easily seals him off, and receives the simple pass for the easy layup. It's defensive positioning with him. Georgia Tech barely got any offensive rebounds against us last night. But they did get a number of very high quality interior shots. And Jabari's positioning, as in a number of prior games, was one of the primary causes.

I've seen him in other games sell out to go for a block and then the other team gets the board.

In the GT game, when he sold out for the block, there was no chance for an offensive board either because the shot went in or it took a Duke-friendly bounce away from the guy he left.

[azzefkram]

In 2006, when Shelden Williams roamed the paint for Duke, opposing centers routinely led their team in scoring. Guys like Marco Killingsworth, Cedric Simmons, and Al Thornton had career games against us, and even guys like Coleman Collins and Eric Williams seemed able to score at will against us.

And yet Shelden Williams won National Defensive Player of the Year that season. The problem obviously wasn't him. It was our perimeter not stopping the drive. Same as this year.

They are inter-related. Shelden masked a boat load of sins. In 2006, Shelden was 27th in Block% and 39th in DR%. Amile is rebounding better than Shelden (even with his first 2 games which makes it more impressive in my book). What we lack is someone who can erase mistakes. Josh is absolutely dreadful at this. Amile is better but still significantly worse than Shelden (or Marshall for that matter).

As a team in 2006, Duke was 102nd in 2P% and 50th in Block%. Now we are 235th and 253rd respectively.

I agree that it starts on the perimeter. Defensively, which perimeter would you rather have; Quinn, Sheed and Rodney, or Greg, JJ and DeMarcus? I'd take Quinn and Sheed over Greg and JJ. A changing of the forward seems to have occurred (your change of phrase in the other thread was a good one, so I thought I'd steal it). I think it will work out okay if we maybe not change the guard but give them slightly relaxed marching orders. We are elite at guarding the three. Maybe if we dial back the pressure slightly it will help contain the penetration.

[Billy Dat]

Jabari's problem isn't trying to block shots that he has no real chance to block. Rather, a couple of times per game, he is out of position in guarding the post, tries to compensate by going over the top but he's too late, and the opposing big easily seals him off, and receives the simple pass for the easy layup. It's defensive positioning with him. Georgia Tech barely got any offensive rebounds against us last night. But they did get a number of very high quality interior shots. And Jabari's positioning, as in a number of prior games, was one of the primary causes.

It would be nice if Professor Battier could take a few days off and school the young fella in the art of the ground war.

"Wade jumps the lane in anticipation of a pass to Elton Brand, the ball instead finds its way, slowly, to Mayo in the corner. Mayo hits it and the Mavericks go up six with four minutes to play.

“He guessed [Collison] was going to throw it to the top of the key and not the corner and that’s where a gamble bites you in the butt,” Battier said. “Versus being solid, playing it halfway in the middle and then the pass goes and you play the pass.

“In certain situations you can get away with it. Some guys have instincts. Dwyane has instincts. He’s going to make some spectacular plays. He’s going to make some plays where you’re like, ‘D, What are you doing?’”

There’s a philosophical difference here, but it isn’t tension-fueled. Battier’s position on defense is clear:

“I believe in ground wars. I believe in position. I think over time that wins,” Battier said."

[Troublemaker]

Thoughts:

• It was important to have a dominant second half (after playing a very bad first half) to give this team confidence heading into the huge road game at Clemson on Saturday. If we can beat Clemson (and Vegas will probably have that game as a pick'em or Duke -1), then we can hopefully get on a roll and be 6-1 heading into the Hell Week of @Pitt and @Syracuse. Had we sputtered to an 8-10 point win against GaTech, I personally wouldn't have felt good about the Clemson game.
• I think Coach K is gaining confidence in the Amile at the 5, Rodney at the 4 smallball lineup. It's been effective at times the past two games, especially this game. I think we'll see more of it when the opportunity presents itself in future games. (Note: I don't like the Jabari at the 5, Rodney at the 4 smallball lineup. Jabari's defense is just not there yet).
• Our team leaders are constantly talking to Jabari during this 3-game mini-slump, encouraging him, making sure he stays positive. I love how tight-knit the team appears to be. Jabari will get through this, and he has Rasheed's example from earlier in the season to look to. It got so bad for Sheed that he registered a DNP against Michigan, but now a few games later he's playing 36 minutes against GaTech. Jabari's situation isn't as bad, of course, but seeing Sheed's response to adversity first-hand will help Jabari end this slump quickly, hopefully now.
• Did Rodney have a hot hand in the second half? No study will ever convince me that when Rodney shot his last couple of threes, those shots' odds of going in were only equal to Rodney's average shooting percentages.
• I still think when facing m2m defense, Amile needs to look to drive the opposing center. Miller played 32 minutes and committed 0 fouls. Against good centers, we need to pressure them with Amile's driving ability; sometimes it will lead to foul trouble for them and a completely different flavor to the game and to their performance.
• I wouldn't expect Tyler to ever see so few minutes again. He played poorly and fouled himself out of the game (not technically, but 3 fouls in 6 minutes; Coach K couldn't stick with him). But he'll be back to 15+ mpg in the next game.

[jv001]

I have just finished reading all the posts and have to admit there are some very good takes on the GT game. There were some really good things to take away from the game. 1. Andre demonstrated an ability to drive to the basket(good handle). I guess he really did work on some things in the summer. This gives Duke another option on offense and should open up shooters as his pass to Amile for a layup demonstrated. 2. Amile continues to amaze me with his rebounding. He played Miller well on defense with physicality. Amile looks to have a good knowledge of the game. 3. Rodney was a terror on offense and really put the game away for us. Great to see Coach K give credit to Wojo for the suggestion. 4. Rasheed continues to get better with another good game. 5. Quinn with 5 assists to 1 turnover was good. Now some not so good things: 1. Quinn at times dribbled way too much and we ended up forcing a shot to beat the clock. Better ball movement will take care of that. 2. Jabari was lost at times trying to guard Miller. I don't care that Quinn said, Jabari played good defense. He did not. 3. Marshall only 2 minutes. Nothing else to say on that. 4. We just didn't play with energy in the 1st half. Too much like the ND game. Coach K seemed to agree in his post game comments. All in all, the good really outweighed the bad and I'm looking for a good effort against Clemson. GoDuke!

[roywhite]

It would be nice if Professor Battier could take a few days off and school the young fella in the art of the ground war.

"Wade jumps the lane in anticipation of a pass to Elton Brand, the ball instead finds its way, slowly, to Mayo in the corner. Mayo hits it and the Mavericks go up six with four minutes to play.

“He guessed [Collison] was going to throw it to the top of the key and not the corner and that’s where a gamble bites you in the butt,” Battier said. “Versus being solid, playing it halfway in the middle and then the pass goes and you play the pass.

“In certain situations you can get away with it. Some guys have instincts. Dwyane has instincts. He’s going to make some spectacular plays. He’s going to make some plays where you’re like, ‘D, What are you doing?’”

There’s a philosophical difference here, but it isn’t tension-fueled. Battier’s position on defense is clear:

“I believe in ground wars. I believe in position. I think over time that wins,” Battier said."

Thanks for posting. Do you suppose there is the slightest chance Battier ends up in college coaching (and I'll assume he'd be on the Duke staff if he did)?

I realize the guy has talent and interest in many areas, but he'd be a terrific leader and coach IMO.

[cato]

Throw Parks' junior and senior years . . .

Can we leave out Parks' senior year? I've been trying to forget that year ever since it happened.

[jv001]

Can we leave out Parks' senior year? I've been trying to forget that year ever since it happened.

Yeh, bad year, but not because of the Chief. GoDuke!

[flyingdutchdevil]

It would be nice if Professor Battier could take a few days off and school the young fella in the art of the ground war.

"Wade jumps the lane in anticipation of a pass to Elton Brand, the ball instead finds its way, slowly, to Mayo in the corner. Mayo hits it and the Mavericks go up six with four minutes to play.

“He guessed [Collison] was going to throw it to the top of the key and not the corner and that’s where a gamble bites you in the butt,” Battier said. “Versus being solid, playing it halfway in the middle and then the pass goes and you play the pass.

“In certain situations you can get away with it. Some guys have instincts. Dwyane has instincts. He’s going to make some spectacular plays. He’s going to make some plays where you’re like, ‘D, What are you doing?’”

There’s a philosophical difference here, but it isn’t tension-fueled. Battier’s position on defense is clear:

“I believe in ground wars. I believe in position. I think over time that wins,” Battier said."

Hard to disagree with Battier. As amazing as blocks and steals are (especially for fans), they are high-risk, high-reward. With positional D, you can become a defensive anchor for your team and more effectively prevent the team from scoring.

Would you rather have DeAndre Jordan as your defensive anchor (who is 3rd in the NBA in blocks and 1st in rebounds), or Marc Gasol, who isn't great in either category but provides his team with more efficiency.

Another way of looking at it is Defensive Efficiency. In the 2012-13 season, Indiana had the best defensive efficiency. However, its Defensive Plays Rate (defined as 100*(BLK+STL+CHR) / Opp. Possessions), was 8th. The Clippers were the inverse - best in Defensive Plays Rate and 8th in Defensive Efficiency.

[Billy Dat]

Thanks for posting. Do you suppose there is the slightest chance Battier ends up in college coaching (and I'll assume he'd be on the Duke staff if he did)?

I realize the guy has talent and interest in many areas, but he'd be a terrific leader and coach IMO.

I honestly don't...he's made too many cracks over the years about not really enjoying spending time with most of his fellow players to think that he'd elect to spend the rest of his life around them. I think a front office job, where he'd get to match wits with fellow quants is a possibility if staying close to the game is something he wants to do.

[FerryFor50]

Thanks for posting. Do you suppose there is the slightest chance Battier ends up in college coaching (and I'll assume he'd be on the Duke staff if he did)?

I realize the guy has talent and interest in many areas, but he'd be a terrific leader and coach IMO.

Going to be difficult to coach while being president of Earth.

[roywhite]

Going to be difficult to coach while being president of Earth.

Yeah, I'd like to vote for the guy some day. He's got a lot to offer whether he ends up in business, politics, media, whatever.

I hear what Billy is saying about Shane moving away from the front lines of basketball; was kind of hoping that an association with Duke would appeal to his broad intellectual range. Heck, I could see him as a University President, and what better place than his alma mater at some point.

Sorry to sidetrack the thread -- I recall Battier being on some Duke teams that absolutely blew out some decent Yellow Jacket teams.

[flyingdutchdevil]

I honestly don't...he's made too many cracks over the years about not really enjoying spending time with most of his fellow players to think that he'd elect to spend the rest of his life around them. I think a front office job, where he'd get to match wits with fellow quants is a possibility if staying close to the game is something he wants to do.

And on top of that, why coach college when you can coach the NBA? Pay is higher, you don't have to recruit, players already know your MO. I guess Jason Kidd is a reason not to coach in the NBA, but I think Battier would take the more conventional approach of digging one's toe in the water (ie become an assistant coach) rather than diving in (player-to-coach in 1 month).