MBB: Duke 86, Elon 48 Post Game Thread

[FerryFor50]

My pet peeve is people who think everyone should make all their free throws, or that people can become good foul shooters just by practicing a lot. Free throws are hard. There's a whole psychological aspect to taking them that isn't really a factor with normal game shooting.

I disagree. Free throws are easy. The psychological aspect to them is based on that very premise - how does one, at a high level of competitive basketball, miss a shot that isn't far away and is unguarded?

However, it's less of a concern when a big that can't shoot jumpers (like Amile or MP3) misses a FT than when a deadeye 3pt specialist misses them.

[wilko]

Free throws are hard. There's a whole psychological aspect to taking them that isn't really a factor with normal game shooting.

I think the thought becomes "don't miss" at the line so of course they then they DO miss...
A better technique of shoot FT's would be have a private practice with your favorite co-ed to line up a few feet under the basket... Think strip-shot. A made shot an article of clothing is removed... miss and it is put back on..

Positive reinforcement (of a Ms) to replace fear of a Miss...

[Kedsy]

I disagree. Free throws are easy. The psychological aspect to them is based on that very premise - how does one, at a high level of competitive basketball, miss a shot that isn't far away and is unguarded?

However, it's less of a concern when a big that can't shoot jumpers (like Amile or MP3) misses a FT than when a deadeye 3pt specialist misses them.

I disagree with both of you. Free throws aren't easy, and the psychological component of trying to make one in a game situation while thousands of people are watching is huge.

That said, of course you can improve your free throw shooting by practicing. You have to learn proper form first, but if you practice enough you can at least become adequate and probably better than that. One issue with players at this level is they only have a finite amount of practice time and they have lots of things to work on in addition to free throws.

[vick]

I don't know what games you've been watching. For the season so far, Duke has grabbed 71.8% of available defensive rebounds. That's the best Duke mark in at least 18 seasons, and currently ranks as the 65th best in the country. So it has already started this season. Perhaps you missed it while you were ranting about us getting smashed on the boards without any corresponding evidence.

It would be, I believe, the best since at least 1987, when the GoDuke.com stats include ORB and DRB reliably, although it's of course a fair question whether it will hold up at this level as the conference schedule progresses.

At any rate, I don't think the strongest argument against playing Parker at small forward is that he can't do it--he's only listed as five pounds bigger than Kyle Singler was in 2010 (I'm not sure I really believe that myself, but Kenpom has it at 230 for Singler and 235 for Parker). But Jefferson/Hairston/MP3 are not yet the players that Zoubek and Thomas were, and we're deeper at guard than that year as well, so it doesn't make much lineup sense to me.

[dukelifer]

My pet peeve is people who think everyone should make all their free throws, or that people can become good foul shooters just by practicing a lot. Free throws are hard. There's a whole psychological aspect to taking them that isn't really a factor with normal game shooting.

Sure hitting all your free throws is not possible. Hitting more than 50% is possible with practice. Over the last 60 years- the average player hits 69% of his throws. That percentage has stayed relatively steady. The NBA players shoot around 75%. Yes hitting every shot is hard but Marshall is currently 0 for 15 in two seasons. I think with hard work he can be better but he will never be JJ - and JJ will never be 100%

[MChambers]

Well no one said or implied that at all (in fact, very much the opposite), so all you've really proven here is an inability to read.

Singler played small forward when it was best for Duke for him to do so. All that I've ever suggested is the exact same thing.

Wow, snark much? Seems uncalled for, but at least you've matched your tone with your substantive analysis.

[duke96]

My pet peeve is people who think everyone should make all their free throws, or that people can become good foul shooters just by practicing a lot. Free throws are hard. There's a whole psychological aspect to taking them that isn't really a factor with normal game shooting.

I guess i missed the post where someone said that everyone should make all their free throws, but congrats on making the insightful counterpoint.

If the rest of your point is that it peeves you when people think practicing free throws makes you a better free throw shooter, then you I guess you must be peeved a lot.

[Cameron]

I think sheed does a great job getting in the lane, but I really wish he would start pulling up and hitting short jumpers. He drives to the basket many times attempting to get fouled, but instead gets blocked or throws up a terrible shot. He has issues finishing through contact.

This is an excellent point. Rasheed often takes one or two more dribbles than necessary when driving to the basket. If he could just implement that Chris Duhon floater from about six to eight feet into his arsenal of shots, Rasheed would be a much more efficient scorer off the bounce. He's just not strong or crafty enough -- yet -- to finish at the rim with regularity the way a guy like Jason Williams could. Jason was built like a compact car, incredibly sturdy and tough. As you say, many times after getting to the basket Rasheed is too far underneath the rim to do anything productive with the ball, frequently leading to the ball being stripped or a blocked shot.

Also, while he's done a better job of this since rejoining the regular rotation a few games ago, Rasheed could really help the team -- and himself -- by actively looking to share the ball with his teammates more on drive and kicks. He's got a great first step, which lends well to that sort of play. Too often, he puts his head down and appears on a mission to get to the basket to score come hell or high water. Teams know that. And as such they are able to send help defenders his way in such scenarios without much cause for concern. If he starts to look for open shooters with more frequency when driving, defenses will recognize that threat and he'll in turn open things up for himself offensively as well.

As stated, Rasheed's done a much better job at this recently, and his numbers reflect that. In the first five games of the season, Rasheed tallied just three assists. He has nine over the last three games. A big improvement. I don't think it's a coincidence that his improvement in that area has coincided with much better overall play over the past few games.

[Clay Feet POF]

Have you all heard of Dr Tom Amberry?

[gurufrisbee]

Wow, snark much? Seems uncalled for, but at least you've matched your tone with your substantive analysis.

Hilarious since you were the one of the two of us who went to that first. And it's very much a compliment taken to hear you dislike my analysis.

[gurufrisbee]

Kansas starts Wiggins at the 3. He's 35 pounds lighter than Jabari.
Syracuse starts CJ Fair. He's 20 pounds lighter than Jabari.
Baylor starts 6'6", 220 pound Royce O'Neal. Significantly lighter and shorter than Jabari.
These guys are all much closer to Rodney than to Jabari.

But hey! You are correct about Arizona. Arizona is also the probably the biggest team in the country, so I don't know why they should be some sort of normative standard. You got your one (1) team who has a small forward as large as Jabari Parker, though.
"

Wiggins and Fair are essentially the same size as Parker.
Baylor plays Gathers more than ONeal and he's decently bigger.
So given they were off the top of my head, all four of the four I suggested absolutely fit.

The rest of what you wrote is rude and/or complete gibberish. Troll someone else.

[tommy]

Off the top of my head - Arizona, Kansas, Baylor, Syracuse all start guys that big at the 3.

Kansas starts Wiggins at the 3. He's 35 pounds lighter than Jabari.
Syracuse starts CJ Fair. He's 20 pounds lighter than Jabari.
Baylor starts 6'6", 220 pound Royce O'Neal. Significantly lighter and shorter than Jabari.
These guys are all much closer to Rodney than to Jabari.

But hey! You are correct about Arizona. Arizona is also the probably the biggest team in the country, so I don't know why they should be some sort of normative standard. You got your one (1) team who has a small forward as large as Jabari Parker, though.

And Arizona didn't kill us on the boards either, even with that big team. They outrebounded us by 8 on the official stat sheet, but they got 5 defensive boards off of missed Duke free throws, while we only got one off of their missed free throws. Those are gimme rebounds, which say next to nothing about a team's size and/or rebounding ability. To me, they should be excluded from consideration of a team's rebounding numbers. If you do that, and therefore take away Arizona's net +4 in that department, they only outrebounded us by 4 boards total. Big deal.

Note the same was true of the Kansas game. They out rebounded us on the stat sheet by a lot more than did Arizona, but as I detailed in my post which you can find here, not only did they get a significant + on the rebounding of missed FT's (we missed a LOT that night) but they also got credited for a lot of defensive rebounds which had nothing to do with their size or rebounding ability -- they were kind of random plays that got counted as defensive rebounds. So while yes, they beat us on the boards, it wasn't nearly as bad as a glance at the raw numbers in the box score would suggest.

This Blue Devils team, starting a skinny 6'9" guy at center much of the time, without a true center, has not been truly dominated on the boards yet this season. That could change in the ACC season, but the expectation that many had coming into the year, that this was going to be a glaring weakness for us, has thus far not come to fruition.

But by all means let's keep running our line up that is vastly undersized and getting killed in the paint and on the glass - because they hand out trophies for that, too.

Not only have we not been getting killed on the glass, but we haven't been getting killed in the paint either. There is an entire thread on this board devoted to demonstrating that as well. The vast majority of big man scoring against us has come from our perimeter players' failure to cut off dribble penetration, which results in our interior defenders having to come over and help, leaving their big men open for dumpoffs and other inside plays that make their stats look better but have nothing to do with our inside players being weak defensively.

Wiggins and Fair are essentially the same size as Parker.

The rest of what you wrote is rude and/or complete gibberish. Troll someone else.

Have you stood next to Jabari Parker and Andrew Wiggins? Probably not, because if you had, you would not have made that statement. Parker is HUGE. Wiggins is not only a little shorter, but his body is not nearly as thick and developed as is Jabari's. Not close.

And listen, you're a guy who has been on these boards less than two months, with a grand total of 60 posts to your credit. Little piece of advice: don't come in talking like this, making accusations and calling guys names. You haven't earned the right, and frankly, this isn't supposed to be that kind of place. Des Esseintes has been doing this awhile, and is recognized around here as a thoughtful and smart basketball observer, and is always respectful of others. Everyone should feel free to disagree, and argue their points vigorously, but don't make personal attacks, especially when you don't know who you're talking to and what his reputation is around here.

[kAzE]

I think sheed does a great job getting in the lane, but I really wish he would start pulling up and hitting short jumpers. He drives to the basket many times attempting to get fouled, but instead gets blocked or throws up a terrible shot. He has issues finishing through contact.

I disagree with your general premise here. Sulaimon does have issues finishing through contact, that's for sure, but one of the strengths of his game is the ability to get deep in the paint, and either get fouled on a shot attempt or find a cutting teammate for an assist. It puts a lot of pressure on the defense to constantly have to defend multiple players attacking the rim and getting their bigs in foul trouble.

I'm not saying he should NEVER pull up, obviously if there's 3 guys in your path to the hoop, or if Serge Ibaka is sitting on the weak side getting ready to smack the crap out of your shot, then pull up, but otherwise, pulling up from mid-range bails out the opposing defense and is a much lower percentage play than a hard drive to the rim. Granted, he misses a fair number of shots at the rim, but I'd rather him keep attacking than pulling up. It's just a more efficient play overall, in my opinion. You might miss the shot and not get fouled, but that would be the same result as a missed pull up jumper. At least with the hard drive, there's a chance to pick up a foul on the other team and get a trip to the free throw line. Also, when he gets deep in the paint, he usually draws a second defender his way, meaning he has a good chance to find an open teammate with his superb passing ability.

So if he could pick his spots a bit better, and not drive in to 3 or 4 guys, that would be great, but in general, I think he should attack whenever possible.

[greybeard]

I disagree with your general premise here. Sulaimon does have issues finishing through contact, that's for sure, but one of the strengths of his game is the ability to get deep in the paint, and either get fouled on a shot attempt or find a cutting teammate for an assist. It puts a lot of pressure on the defense to constantly have to defend multiple players attacking the rim and getting their bigs in foul trouble.

I'm not saying he should NEVER pull up, obviously if there's 3 guys in your path to the hoop, or if Serge Ibaka is sitting on the weak side getting ready to smack the crap out of your shot, then pull up, but otherwise, pulling up from mid-range bails out the opposing defense and is a much lower percentage play than a hard drive to the rim. Granted, he misses a fair number of shots at the rim, but I'd rather him keep attacking than pulling up. It's just a more efficient play overall, in my opinion. You might miss the shot and not get fouled, but that would be the same result as a missed pull up jumper. At least with the hard drive, there's a chance to pick up a foul on the other team and get a trip to the free throw line. Also, when he gets deep in the paint, he usually draws a second defender his way, meaning he has a good chance to find an open teammate with his superb passing ability.

So if he could pick his spots a bit better, and not drive in to 3 or 4 guys, that would be great, but in general, I think he should attack whenever possible.

Modulate speeds and bring it wider from the rim. Compare the early, first 2 years of Nolan with the last 2.

Also, a pull up, aka Jordan, along with a hesitation "as if to pull up and go" move would be great for this guy to add to his game.

[greybeard]

Sure hitting all your free throws is not possible. Hitting more than 50% is possible with practice. Over the last 60 years- the average player hits 69% of his throws. That percentage has stayed relatively steady. The NBA players shoot around 75%. Yes hitting every shot is hard but Marshall is currently 0 for 15 in two seasons. I think with hard work he can be better but he will never be JJ - and JJ will never be 100%

It is not the intensity of work that matters it is the how. Most of what is learned, really engrained, is first taken in somatically, through, into the body/nervous system/mind as a sensory memory, one that has no words, or in which no words are needed. Then, and this is the kicker, once you have that memory you learn MORE from playing "imagine" than by actual practice, though that certainly has it's place. Imagine involves picturing, sensing, feeling the shoot from contact with the floor through the top of your head, the all of it, the more complete, the better. The imagination invokes the sensations, sequence, initiation points, pathways, sequence, timing, speed, intensity etc of movements, they are experienced. Walking to class, watching TV, etc. That is where learning is accelerated.

Hard work increases the intensity of sensation and decreases one's ability to discern what you are feeling and sensing that makes a difference; it impedes learning.

We see other's perform in shapes--that is a good looking stroke, that sucks. We experience ourselves as sentient beings from the inside out, sensations, feelings. How to instructions and working to achieve goals, without the baseline feel of how we are doing what we intend is a very, very unproductive way to learn a new physical skill. It is particularly difficult to overcome a habituated approach. I learned new shots, or worked on honing my shot if it needed it, by shooting lefty, doing the shot relying solely on the form and feel of it, from within 2-5 feet. There is no meaningful old stuff to get out of the way. When I "got" it lefty, it transferred to the right automatically.

The question, why won't poor habits transfer from the strong to the weak side is easy. The brain/nervous system is attracted to what feels good, what works with ultimate ease because all the machines involved are in sync and we know, again on a non verbal level the feel of every aspect of it all through us (optimally). On our strong side, we often settle for styles that have us getting in our own way but nevertheless, these big time athletes, can use their acuity and physical equipment to literally push through their own obstacles. As "nice" a shot that this self sabotaging action produces, fundamentally there is an element that is disturbing, not right. That does not transfer unless you force it upon the other side. But, if you appreciate something about what you are after and know that it should be easy and very effective, take less effort than you can imagine, you will have a much less encumbered way to learn something new.

Many of us, probably most all of us, are unable to comprehend ourselves from the inside out with respect to certain aspects of self use. We all have incomplete "self images" as it were, places where we are quite vague or completely in the dark as to involvement. You then need to grab onto where there is awareness and expand from there.

This really is not nearly as complicated as it sounds.

Practicing hard when you do not know HOW to do what you want will not produce the result you are after, which is to know how to do what you want. It will not happen. At best, a very poor approximation.

Learning is fun and interesting or it does not happen. When basketball players are working hard into the night shooting 5000 jump shots, anybody really believe that that is "work?" I didn't think so.

[kAzE]

I don't have the stats to back this up, but just from the eye test, I'm willing to bet that over his career, Sulaimon gets to the foul line at a higher rate (per shot attempt) than anyone on the team not named Jabari. In the Easterm Michigan game alone, he had 11 free throw attempts, of which he hit 9. That's a ton of fouls on the other team, and that kind of play gets us in the bonus early in halves. That's how you win close games.

[Kedsy]

I don't have the stats to back this up, but just from the eye test, I'm willing to bet that over his career, Sulaimon gets to the foul line at a higher rate (per shot attempt) than anyone on the team not named Jabari. In the Easterm Michigan game alone, he had 11 free throw attempts, of which he hit 9. That's a ton of fouls on the other team, and that kind of play gets us in the bonus early in halves. That's how you win close games.

Rasheed's career free throw rate is 39.7. For the season so far, his free throw rate is 58.4.

Jabari's free throw rate is 37.3. Rodney's free throw rate this season is 47.5 (higher than Rasheed's career rate but lower than his season-so-far rate). Interestingly, at Mississippi State, Rodney's FTR was a paltry 14.2. Quinn's FTR this season is 27.4. And here's one you wouldn't expect: Tyler's FTR so far this season is 37.0. His career rate is 42.3, better than Rasheed's career rate. And another: Amile's FTR is 73.0, and his career rate is 54.1, both numbers way higher than Rasheed's. And a third: Josh's FTR this season is 55.0, almost as high as Rasheed's; his career rate is 41.0, a little higher than Rasheed's. Marshall's FTR in limited minutes is 100.0 this season and also 100.0 for his career. Matt's FTR is 83.3. Semi's FTR is 58.3, essentially the same as Rasheed's this season, but higher than his career rate. Nick Pagliuca's FTR is infinity!

So, while Rasheed does get to the foul line a fair amount, you'd lose your bet; of Duke's 11 recruited scholarship players, Rasheed's career rate would actually rank in the bottom half of our roster compared to our players' season rates so far. Interestingly, contrary to your assumption, Jabari ranks even lower, almost at the bottom of our roster among this-season numbers (essentially tied with Tyler and above only Quinn and Andre, whose FTR is 18.8).

[gus]

I think the thought becomes "don't miss" at the line so of course they then they DO miss...
A better technique of shoot FT's would be have a private practice with your favorite co-ed to line up a few feet under the basket... Think strip-shot. A made shot an article of clothing is removed... miss and it is put back on..

Positive reinforcement (of a Ms) to replace fear of a Miss...

Marshall must have an eskimo fetish.

[kAzE]

Rasheed's career free throw rate is 39.7. For the season so far, his free throw rate is 58.4.

Jabari's free throw rate is 37.3. Rodney's free throw rate this season is 47.5 (higher than Rasheed's career rate but lower than his season-so-far rate). Interestingly, at Mississippi State, Rodney's FTR was a paltry 14.2. Quinn's FTR this season is 27.4. And here's one you wouldn't expect: Tyler's FTR so far this season is 37.0. His career rate is 42.3, better than Rasheed's career rate. And another: Amile's FTR is 73.0, and his career rate is 54.1, both numbers way higher than Rasheed's. And a third: Josh's FTR this season is 55.0, almost as high as Rasheed's; his career rate is 41.0, a little higher than Rasheed's. Marshall's FTR in limited minutes is 100.0 this season and also 100.0 for his career. Matt's FTR is 83.3. Semi's FTR is 58.3, essentially the same as Rasheed's this season, but higher than his career rate. Nick Pagliuca's FTR is infinity!

So, while Rasheed does get to the foul line a fair amount, you'd lose your bet; of Duke's 11 recruited scholarship players, Rasheed's career rate would actually rank in the bottom half of our roster compared to our players' season rates so far. Interestingly, contrary to your assumption, Jabari ranks even lower, almost at the bottom of our roster among this-season numbers (essentially tied with Tyler and above only Quinn and Andre, whose FTR is 18.8).

Well, I guess that's what I get for not showing a little bit more initiative. I guess what I meant to say what that he makes more free throws than most other guys on the team while he's on the floor, which is true, but I still overestimated him a bit. He's 4th on the team in free throws made per minute played (0.118), behind Parker (0.137), Hood (0.134), and surprisingly, Matt Jones (.142). Last year, he was also 4th, behind MP2, Kelly, and Curry. Obviously, he is capable of thriving as the 4th option on our team's offense and still getting to the foul line with some regularity. Suffice it to say, slashing to the hoop is definitely one of the stronger parts of his game. He's pretty athletic, and he's a pretty good free throw shooter, so I'm fine with him going hard in the paint when the opportunity presents itself.

[Kedsy]

Well, I guess that's what I get for not showing a little bit more initiative. I guess what I meant to say what that he makes more free throws than most other guys on the team while he's on the floor, which is true, but I still overestimated him a bit. He's 4th on the team in free throws made per minute played (0.118), behind Parker (0.137), Hood (0.134), and surprisingly, Matt Jones (.142). Last year, he was also 4th, behind MP2, Kelly, and Curry. Obviously, he is capable of thriving as the 4th option on our team's offense and still getting to the foul line with some regularity. Suffice it to say, slashing to the hoop is definitely one of the stronger parts of his game. He's pretty athletic, and he's a pretty good free throw shooter, so I'm fine with him going hard in the paint when the opportunity presents itself.

Without the numbers I probably would have guessed the same as you did. I think the unexpected high free throw rates come from (a) more fouls called this season; and (b) guys like Tyler, Josh, and Amile don't take that many shots (the denominator in the FTR calculation). Also, Josh, Marshall, and especially Amile presumably get fouled some after offensive rebounds, which would inflate their rate a bit.