WBB: (2) Duke 94, (17) Oklahoma 85

[Duvall]

Do you want to continue to debate this point in absolutes or accept it within the BBS context and vernacular which it is intended? Your question doesn't really require an answer does it?

If Duke was still a young team in search of an identity, sorting out roles and getting used to the coach's system you could easily expert the team to grow over the next few months. But with a Sr. laden team those roles and relationships have largely been sorted out by now, the Duke team you will see in its next game will not change a lot before March. Duke doesn't necessarily even need to win IMO but does need to be at least competitive from start to finish, not just for a half, to develop a measure of confidence that it can compete with UConn, which to date a P coached team has not done. But the standard is UConn and for this team that really is the only challenge that matters. A final four would be nice but this Sr. class would exit the stage feeling it left the bigger prize on the table.

Sounds like we should cancel the season after next week, win or lose. After all, that December non-conference game is the only challenge that matters.

[Kedsy]

But the standard is UConn and for this team that really is the only challenge that matters. A final four would be nice but this Sr. class would exit the stage feeling it left the bigger prize on the table.

I think a Final Four would be absolutely fabulous and the team and fans would and should be thrilled, especially since Coach P hasn't done that yet at Duke. I also think there are plenty of challenges that matter besides UConn.

[MChambers]

Injury aside, can you provide an example of a lopsided victory in december being flipped in march? i'm sure it's happened, but I would imagine it's a rare occurence in the women's game. Given, as you say, it doesn't preclude a victory, but does anything ever really preclude a victory?

Even better, a lopsided win in January was reversed in the Final Four. That happened in 2006. Duke blew Maryland out, at the Comcast Center, in January. I was there, and Duke dominated.

In the Final Four, Maryland beat Duke.

Sorry I don't have an example of UConn losing in March/April, but I just don't follow the women's game as closely.

[77devil]

I think a Final Four would be absolutely fabulous and the team and fans would and should be thrilled, especially since Coach P hasn't done that yet at Duke. I also think there are plenty of challenges that matter besides UConn.

Yes, a final four would be nice as Coach K had two after seven seasons at Duke.

[Kedsy]

Yes, a final four would be nice as Coach K had two after seven seasons at Duke.

While I agree it would be great, it's not entirely fair to expect Coach P to live up to the standards of one of the top 2 college basketball coaches of all time.

[Dukehky]

The sarcastic replies about how duke should "cancel the season if they lose to UConn" are not necessary. It's a defensive measure taken because Uh no makes strong points, and by engaging in hyperbole you're attempting to negate those points.

Look, I was on the practice squad when I was there, and as such I have a really strong desire to see this team do well. I've never really been a strong supporter of Coach P because Coach G was my coach; however, I really want the program to win. We have the talent to beat UConn both in December and in the tournament, but Coach P isn't big on changing what she does. She's going to switch up defenses and run the through the post, even if it's not E down there. Adjustments aren't really her thing, which is fine, if you have the talent to win regardless of circumstance, which this Duke team does. So if we do lose by 20 at home to UConn, I don't see any real indication that we could beat them later. There is the distinct possibility that they could just be raining in contested Jumpers and we miss a bunch of open shots and bunnies. That would be the exception to the beat by 20 rule. If we just don't make shots and lose by 20, then we can win later.

There is a difference between getting beat and not playing well. WHile it's harder to describe, if you've watched basketball, then you can tell which of those two it is pretty easily.

Lets just hope the girls make all of this bickering mean nothing by beating UConn by 45 points in Cameron, I'll be there and encourage anyone who's able to go. Two best teams in the country in the gym we all love... Nothing better in the women's game.

[77devil]

While I agree it would be great, it's not entirely fair to expect Coach P to live up to the standards of one of the top 2 college basketball coaches of all time.

Why not? After all, it was you who maintained that she outperformed him from a similar starting point.

[Kedsy]

Why not? After all, it was you who maintained that she outperformed him from a similar starting point.

True enough, but in a different context. Before, I was attempting to point out that we shouldn't be so hard on Coach P since Coach K started slow and Coach P's early teams were actually much better than Coach K's early teams. My recollection is in that conversation I even pointed out that I didn't expect her to become Coach K, just that we should give her a break.

Now, we're contemplating whether she needs to achieve certain goals because Coach K accomplished them. I admit it's a similar discussion, but I think the nuances are both different and important.

[roywhite]

True enough, but in a different context. Before, I was attempting to point out that we shouldn't be so hard on Coach P since Coach K started slow and Coach P's early teams were actually much better than Coach K's early teams. My recollection is in that conversation I even pointed out that I didn't expect her to become Coach K, just that we should give her a break.

Now, we're contemplating whether she needs to achieve certain goals because Coach K accomplished them. I admit it's a similar discussion, but I think the nuances are both different and important.

To branch out a bit here, it's very gratifying to see just how good Duke has become in a number of sports. We all know about Coach K's program and recall how Coach G. accomplished so much for Women's hoops, but we see Duke nationally competitive (going for national titles) in a number of sports -- M lacrosse, W lacrosse, W-golf, Field Hockey, both Men's and Women's Soccer in some years, and a niche like Diving. Not to mention how the FB program has progressed. Has overall Duke athletics ever been better?

The point? Duke has a great brand, a rising tide if you will, that is raising many ships, or sports with 'ships.

To the women's program under Coach P, she has reached a standard of excellence that is very impressive. This year seems to offer a good opportunity to challenge UConn (truly the gold standard in that sport) and maybe win a National Championship. Be great to see.

[msdukie]

While I agree it would be great, it's not entirely fair to expect Coach P to live up to the standards of one of the top 2 college basketball coaches of all time.

What about the standards of her predecessor?

[throatybeard]

What about the standards of her predecessor?

I'd say, think how narrow the difference really is. We're still very competitive for the ACC RS/T every year. The difference is what happens in the Regional Final, which is that McCallie loses on the regular. But GG's teams had very ugly exits in the Final Four in 1999, 2002 and 2003. I'd say being one of the last eight teams standing is a good problem to have. Like GG, McCallie has made a National Final and lost, once, not twice.

Another difficulty in assessing Goestenkors is her relative struggle at Texas. Don't get me wrong, I darn near cried myself to sleep when she left, but she didn't replicate her Duke success at Texas, which is sort of a mystery to me. So if you're going to measure McCallie against, her, I think you've gotta add the Texas years in there.

At the end of the day, you're talking about replacement value. Who was available when Gail left who would have come to Duke, would have done better than make the Region Final most years and would have won the conference quite a bit?

What's Gail doing now anyway, since she left Texas? Wiki is unhelpful in this matter.

[Kedsy]

What about the standards of her predecessor?

Well, I don't know that any of these comparisons are productive, but OK, I'll play.

In Coach G's first 6 seasons, she had a 119-61 record (.661), and took the team to one Elite Eight and three second round losses.

In Coach P's first 6 seasons, she had a 174-35 record (.841), and took the team to four Elite Eights, one Sweet 16, and one 2nd round loss.

In Coach G's 7th season, her team scored a 29-7 record and a trip to the championship game. My guess is Coach P will easily eclipse the win/loss record. Who knows if we'll get to the finals.

So I'd say so far Coach P has easily lived up to the standards of Coach G at the same point in her Duke tenure and in fact far exceeded them.

And, yeah, I know Coach P inherited a much stronger team than Coach G did, but the team did lose its two best players from Coach G's last year and by leaving in late March Coach G sort of screwed Coach P out of any Spring recruiting for P's first season, so it wasn't like the team P inherited was a super-powerhouse or anything.

[throatybeard]

Holy cow. I hadn't processed this, but Goestenkors actually had a losing record in the conference at Texas. (40-42).

Also, w/r/t transitions and all, didn't she get handed the keys by Jody Conradt?

[Duvall]

I'd say, think how narrow the difference really is. We're still very competitive for the ACC RS/T every year. The difference is what happens in the Regional Final, which is that McCallie loses on the regular. But GG's teams had very ugly exits in the Final Four in 1999, 2002 and 2003. I'd say being one of the last eight teams standing is a good problem to have. Like GG, McCallie has made a National Final and lost, once, not twice.

Another difficulty in assessing Goestenkors is her relative struggle at Texas. Don't get me wrong, I darn near cried myself to sleep when she left, but she didn't replicate her Duke success at Texas, which is sort of a mystery to me. So if you're going to measure McCallie against, her, I think you've gotta add the Texas years in there.

At the end of the day, you're talking about replacement value. Who was available when Gail left who would have come to Duke, would have done better than make the Region Final most years and would have won the conference quite a bit?

What's Gail doing now anyway, since she left Texas? Wiki is unhelpful in this matter.

Enjoying that buyout life? Looks like she's also been a consultant with the LA Sparks.

There are probably a couple of coaches that might have done better at Duke over the last six years, but it's hard to imagine Joe Alleva managing to find and/or land them.

[Kedsy]

Yes, a final four would be nice as Coach K had two after seven seasons at Duke.

Oh, by the way, while I still maintain judging Coach P on whether she does as well as Coach K isn't entirely fair, I'm also almost certain Coach K only had one Final Four appearance after his first seven seasons at Duke. His first season was 1980-81. He made his second Final Four in 1988 (8th season).

[Duvall]

And, yeah, I know Coach P inherited a much stronger team than Coach G did, but the team did lose its two best players from Coach G's last year and by leaving in late March Coach G sort of screwed Coach P out of any Spring recruiting for P's first season, so it wasn't like the team P inherited was a super-powerhouse or anything.

A "much stronger team" is a pretty strong understatement. Gail inherited a program that hadn't made any kind of postseason in five years, McCallie inherited a team with nine former HS All-Americans.

[Kedsy]

A "much stronger team" is a pretty strong understatement. Gail inherited a program that hadn't made any kind of postseason in five years, McCallie inherited a team with nine former HS All-Americans.

The team she inherited certainly didn't have the kind of talent we saw in Coach G's last few seasons. And after "only" going 25-10 with a Sweet 16 performance her first season, Coach P has not lost more than 6 games in a season and has made the Elite Eight 4 times in 5 years. Other than losing her last game a few days too early, what has she done that hasn't lived up to the "standards of her predecessor"?

[killerleft]

The team she inherited certainly didn't have the kind of talent we saw in Coach G's last few seasons. And after "only" going 25-10 with a Sweet 16 performance her first season, Coach P has not lost more than 6 games in a season and has made the Elite Eight 4 times in 5 years. Other than losing her last game a few days too early, what has she done that hasn't lived up to the "standards of her predecessor"?

This crowd is kinda going IC on Coach P. C? She needs to go to Texas and flame out so they'll be all even. The argument would then be which one's flames got higher!

[Duvall]

The team she inherited certainly didn't have the kind of talent we saw in Coach G's last few seasons. And after "only" going 25-10 with a Sweet 16 performance her first season, Coach P has not lost more than 6 games in a season and has made the Elite Eight 4 times in 5 years. Other than losing her last game a few days too early, what has she done that hasn't lived up to the "standards of her predecessor"?

There's not much benefit to be gained from the comparison, which is why I wasn't the one to bring it up in the first place. But if we have to discuss it, we should at least be accurate.

Has there been a dropoff in Duke's performance against elite opponents in recent years? Yes. Is there anything we can do about it at this point? Not really, no. Is that a reason to root less for Duke, or to take less pleasure in the wins and accomplishments of Duke's players going forward? Absolutely not.

[jv001]

It seems everytime there is a post on one of the Duke Women's team's game, it turns into a Coach P. vs. Coach G. argument. It is what it is, Coach G. was great but she's no longer the Duke coach. Coach P. is doing a very good job since replacing the best women's coach in Duke history, imo. GoDuke!