MBB: Arizona 72, Duke 66 Post-Game Thread

[Billy Dat]

Well, you can say what you want about MP3, but I'm not going to sit here while you people bad-mouth the United States of America.

You've done it this time, buster! No more OldSchool! I'm calling the national office! I'm going to revoke your charter! And if you wiseguys do one more thing, one more, I'm going to kick you out of DBR! NO MORE FUN OF ANY KIND!!

[OldSchool]

You've done it this time, buster! No more OldSchool! I'm calling the national office! I'm going to revoke your charter! And if you wiseguys do one more thing, one more, I'm going to kick you out of DBR! NO MORE FUN OF ANY KIND!!

That can only mean one thing: time for the DBR Toga Party!!

[slower]

That can only mean one thing: time for the DBR Toga Party!!

Watch it, buddy. You're already on double-secret probation.

[freshmanjs]

Do preseason and intra-season team rankings also seem unaccountably arbitrary to you?

no. but, pegging how a team is going to perform in a specific single elimination tournament 4 months from now certainly does. even pegging that a few days before the tournament starts is very difficult.

[g-money]

The issue here is not whether MP3 missed a few rotations, or took a few liberties with the defensive scheme; he did. But he was not the only one. And you can't hold one man responsible for the behavior of numerous careless, unfocused defenders.

For if you do, then shouldn't we blame the whole college basketball system? And if the whole college basketball system is guilty, then isn't this an indictment of our educational institutions in general? I put it to you, gentlemen -- isn't this an indictment of our entire American society?

Well, you can say what you want about MP3, but I'm not going to sit here while you people bad-mouth the United States of America.

Well played sir. And an additional +1 for the OldSchool moniker. Two of my all-time faves.

To Marshall, and to all the other Duke players who are not getting PT, and indeed to any athlete anywhere who is unable to escape the pine's pull, I offer:

It's easy to grin
When your ship comes in
And you've got the stock market beat
But a man worthwhile
Is a man who can smile
When his pants are too tight in the seat

[weezie]

gmoney, as I sit here at the DMV while some idiot kicks the back of my chair, your poetry really does inspire me and lightens my soul as all good poetry should.

[Billy Dat]

It's easy to grin
When your ship comes in
And you've got the stock market beat
But a man worthwhile
Is a man who can smile
When his pants are too tight in the seat

The question is, could a jock as legendary as Judge Smails have played the 5 for Duke and guarded Mitch McGarry?

[tommy]

Do the math again. When Zoubek is in, the offense runs clock. The game, at a minimum is, we score a 3 and you don't, at least without nearly the percentage. Plus, you have played a game with which you are unfamiliar; which has your best shot blocker/rebounder, running around for 30 seconds like a chicken with its head chopped off; which has the other inside defender with nothing to do that anyone has told him to do, which is to say, this over coached poor kid too is lost. What you can say about the exterior players besides, call the medics. Duke, with Zoubek, got what it wanted, when it wanted, in a way that nobody could stop, while at the same time wearing out opposing teams emotionally and physically.

Duke won because it could predict and control outcomes. Duke was not necessarily the best team talent wise in any number of contests, witness the next year's team's performance.

Your point is what, "pedestrian?" Pedestrian? That offense took sophistication, vision, basketball acumen, creativity, talent, originality, and attunement. No one could stop it or Duke from controlling the outcome, which is to say, winning. If that's pedestrian to you, G-d Bless.

I didn't do the math again. What I did do again today was watch some of the games again from 2010. In particular, I watched the entire championship game against Butler and a portion of the semifinal game against West Virginia. That gave me a pretty good feel for what we were doing on offense and in particular I was watching Zoubek on every single possession. As I suspected, whether you want to call it your memory or your analysis, or something else, you are simply incorrect as to what was going on on the offensive end of the floor with that team. You're entitled to your own opinions, of course, but not your own facts.

It is a fact that on most half court sets that Duke ran, Zoubek's first job was to set a screen, usually but not always a screen away from the ball. But sometimes a ball screen. It is also a fact that on the great majority of instances, the next thing Zoubek did was either go to the rim, either rolling looking for a pass or going to the rim to offensive rebound, as a shot looked to be going up. In the alternative, Zoubek did quite a lot of posting up after setting that initial screen. He would simply pivot, using pretty good footwork, stick his butt into his man, put his hand in the air, and ask for the ball. Sometimes he got it, sometimes he didn't. These are facts. I just got finished watching exactly that type of action, time and time again from Z.

Now, sometimes after the initial screen was set, he would take a step or two in one direction or another and set another off-the-ball screen for a teammate. Sometimes he would simply pivot and set a second screen in exactly the same spot as the first one, this time for a different teammate. Sometimes, even if after the first screen was set and he either rolled or turned and posted, but nothing came of it and it got to be deeper in the possession, he would then take a few steps, maybe to the other side of the lane, and attempt to set another screen. Which itself would usually be followed by either another rim run or another post-up attempt. These are facts.

At no time, and in no way, shape, or form, did either Butler's or West Virginia's big man defenders appear to be confused, flummoxed, "lost," running around like chickens with their heads cut off, or anything of the kind. They were not doing anything "unfamiliar." They simply played standard post defense. Zoubek was slow. He wasn't hard to keep up with. He only took a few steps in one direction or another, or none after setting a screen. This was not constant running, constant motion, or anything of the kind.

And there were plenty of possessions, half court possessions, where Zoubek set no screens at all. Duke just ran other stuff. And sometimes, lo and behold, they actually managed to put the ball in the basket without a Brian Zoubek screen having been set!!! All facts.

No one could stop Duke from "controlling the outcome" and nobody could stop Duke from winning that year? Duke clearly had the best team that year, and it wasn't close, and Zoubek was a very important part of it. But if Gordon Hayward's half-court shot was an inch or so shorter, somebody would have stopped Duke from "controlling the outcome" now wouldn't they have?

He created an offensive position the game has not seen. His offensive rebounds turned into step-in 3s while everyone was waiting for him to put it back up, even the 3-shooter at times. He'd set as many as 4 screens in a set; one of the shooters often broke free for an uncontested shot; that, or they'd curl off the screen for a catch and penetration. Defenses for the screen and roll and screen and pop basically involve some sort of interior zone or switching men between the inside defender whose man set the screen and the inside defender who will shade towards covering the screener, while the screener's defender recovered. Only, there was no pop and there was no roll, only Zoubek, with the team's best rebounder/shot blocker in tow, off to set another screen, often on the other side of the court, for another shooter, with Zoubek's defender having to show and then run like hell to catch up with Zoubek who was off to set another screen. Meanwhile, the other inside defender had not a clue what he was there for, nada. And, the outside defenders were happily waiting until it was their turn to run into a wall.

Zoubek could rebound and defend, but did neither exceptionally well. Was he better than Miles at either? Pick em, right?

You see what you see and I see what I see. I mean no harm.

I've been playing and watching basketball for 40 years. While Zoubek was a real force for the 2010 team, there was simply nothing unusual about the way he was screening, the frequency of his screening, the angles he took to screen, or anything else. He wasn't doing anything "the game has not seen." Sometimes a guy would curl off his screen and get a good shot. Sometimes it wouldn't result in that. Sometimes the screen would open up opportunities for other guys a pass or two away. Sometimes not. Sometimes Zoubek would roll to the rim or post up after his screen and get the ball for a decent shot. Sometimes he wouldn't. You know, kind of like the screening done by just about all competent big men in offenses of any sophistication.

If you doubt the accuracy of what I'm saying, I challenge you to watch these games yourself and point out exactly, perhaps with a clock time, where Zoubek did something revolutionary on the offensive end of the floor, or anywhere on the floor for that matter. I'm guessing you won't do it. I loved Zoubek, and I fully recognize how important he was to that team and the championship they won. But sorry, my friend, the facts -- the tape -- simply does not back up your recollection or your analysis of what he was doing out there.


By the way, just as an aside, it was fun to watch the Butler and West Virginia games again, in particular Butler. Especially when comparing how beautifully that team played to the disjointed and uneven play of this year's young team so far in the early part of this season, it was really something to behold. The very embodiment of Coach K's "fist" theory. Just five really talented and intense guys (7 counting the Plumlees off the bench) playing hard, playing their roles, playing smart, playing together. Just awesome to see, and hopefully this year's group will get there too, though there's no doubt on further review of the 2010 tape that the experience and maturity of those guys was a huge factor in our success.

[Zeb]

If you doubt the accuracy of what I'm saying, I challenge you to watch these games yourself and point out exactly, perhaps with a clock time, where Zoubek did something revolutionary on the offensive end of the floor, or anywhere on the floor for that matter. I'm guessing you won't do it. I loved Zoubek, and I fully recognize how important he was to that team and the championship they won. But sorry, my friend, the facts -- the tape -- simply does not back up your recollection or your analysis of what he was doing out there.

Great post. A good example of light defeating heat.

And that 2010 team was a joy to watch. The West Virginia game was about as good as a team can play in my opinion.

[g-money]

gmoney, as I sit here at the DMV while some idiot kicks the back of my chair, your poetry really does inspire me and lightens my soul as all good poetry should.

Thanks Weezie, but as Billy mentions, author credit for that poem goes to the Honorable Elihu Smails of Caddyshack fame. But either way, I'm glad it lifted your spirits.

Now, where were we? Oh yes, Arizona. After a few days of reflection, I consider last week's loss to be nothing more than an insult on top of the great injury they caused us back in 2011. This game was a letdown; that game brought me to a dark place. (Btw, where are you now, Derrick Williams?)

Anyway, let's hope for a rematch with AZ in March! On to Michigan...

[DukeAlumBS]

I agree with that statement. We played 2 teams that were top 4, and lost. We led at the half in both games. And it went down to the last few minutes. So we were not spanked.
I was at the Arizona game. The team did not have its usual game. Led at the half. Jabari Parker was not into his game. Rodney did great. Both missed a lot of shots. The 3 was not going at all. The team starts with Hairston and Thornton. We need to make a change. Anile Jefferson is a good player. Matt jones has done well. Rasheed has not been himself. Do we continue to go to him?
And with 2 minutes left Dawkins comes in and pops a 3. Made the game exciting at the end.
If all this was done, we will beat Kansas and Arizona!
Coach has to make a change.\

Great game, lost my voice, that is why am writing!

Nice day my friends
Jimmy