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  1. #1

    Waiters versus Irving

    Didn't see this posted elsewhere, and thought fellow Duke fans would be interested:

    http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/99...espnapi_public

    How much time is left on Kyrie's free agency clock? Sorry to say it Cavs fans, but your organization is a train wreck.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Location
    Dallas, TX
    As a Cavs fan, I'm totally fine with this. Our owner is trying to win now, but it's plain to anyone with eyes that we aren't going to contend for the Eastern Finals this year. So, if we're going to be bad, there's no sense in trying to go all out to be a middling team. I'm gonna pull a Bill Simmons and just say screw it, I'm gonna root for us to be terrible and get in on the best draft in forever. Obviously, Kyrie is our franchise guy, so if this becomes a problem, there's no doubt Waiters will be the one who gets moved. I went on record saying we should have taken Oladipo with our #1 pick this year, because Waiters is a 3rd guard, not someone who can share the backcourt with Kyrie.

    Bennett has been disappointing, but I'm okay with it. He can't possibly be THIS bad, he'll eventually get in shape and become a nice rotation player, if not a pretty good offensive weapon who can really rebound. Seriously, if we're going to be bad again, there's no better year than this year to land in the lottery. I'm rooting for Kyrie+Jabari in Cleveland! (Wiggins and Randle might actually be even better fits, so if we get a top 3, it's all good) Plus, with all of our cap space this summer, we could probably grab a decent free agent to play with Kyrie, Tristan Thompson, and whoever we draft. Tank it up, Cavs.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Up the street, around the next curve
    Maybe this has more to do with a mask, broken nose and black eye?

    http://cdn0.sbnation.com/assets/3566...ash_medium.gif

    I can't make out how much control Brewer had of that arm...

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by g-money View Post
    Didn't see this posted elsewhere, and thought fellow Duke fans would be interested:

    http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/99...espnapi_public

    How much time is left on Kyrie's free agency clock? Sorry to say it Cavs fans, but your organization is a train wreck.
    I'm curious, what makes you say the cavs organization is a train wreck? we have an owner that cares(maybe too much) about winning and good, young talent in KI and Thompson. The GM has made some curious draft choices but I think he's done a solid job, overall.

    To Kaze's point, next years's draft is legendary so if you're going to be bad, this is the year to do it. It's not like anyone's beating the Heat this year anyway.

    The season is still young, and a little conflict down may bond these guys together to make a run to the playoffs. It's just too early to tell.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    California
    Quote Originally Posted by CPDUKEGUY24 View Post
    Maybe this has more to do with a mask, broken nose and black eye?

    http://cdn0.sbnation.com/assets/3566...ash_medium.gif

    I can't make out how much control Brewer had of that arm...
    Geez, ESPN is absolutely awful. They run this story that heavily insinuates that Waiters is the reason Irving is wearing a mask...just days after running the following story explaining that Irving is wearing a mask because he took a hard elbow to the face from Corey Brewer and left the game for x-rays:

    http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/99...espnapi_public

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by El_Diablo View Post
    Geez, ESPN is absolutely awful. They run this story that heavily insinuates that Waiters is the reason Irving is wearing a mask...just days after running the following story explaining that Irving is wearing a mask because he took a hard elbow to the face from Corey Brewer and left the game for x-rays:

    http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/99...espnapi_public
    "Irving, who has been playing with a mask to protect a nasal fracture, scored 41 points in the win over Washington."

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Washington, DC
    Quote Originally Posted by BlueDevilBrowns View Post
    I'm curious, what makes you say the cavs organization is a train wreck? we have an owner that cares(maybe too much) about winning and good, young talent in KI and Thompson. The GM has made some curious draft choices but I think he's done a solid job, overall.

    To Kaze's point, next years's draft is legendary so if you're going to be bad, this is the year to do it. It's not like anyone's beating the Heat this year anyway.

    The season is still young, and a little conflict down may bond these guys together to make a run to the playoffs. It's just too early to tell.
    Waiters was both an overdraft (nobody had him projected to go that high) AND a terrible fit with Kyrie. That pick alone significantly hurt Cleveland's chances of putting together a cohesive, competitive team in the near future. And to pair it with the Bennett selection, when Bennett is an undersized and overweight power forward who plays the same position as both Thompson and Varejao... I don't think train wreck is an overstatement, and I hate to see Kyrie languishing there.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Quote Originally Posted by GGLC View Post
    Waiters was both an overdraft (nobody had him projected to go that high) AND a terrible fit with Kyrie. That pick alone significantly hurt Cleveland's chances of putting together a cohesive, competitive team in the near future. And to pair it with the Bennett selection, when Bennett is an undersized and overweight power forward who plays the same position as both Thompson and Varejao... I don't think train wreck is an overstatement, and I hate to see Kyrie languishing there.
    I agree on all counts, especially the last one. There's nothing worse than seeing a truly great Duke player languishing on a bad team. I've seen that one too many times over the last 20 years.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by GGLC View Post
    Waiters was both an overdraft (nobody had him projected to go that high) AND a terrible fit with Kyrie. That pick alone significantly hurt Cleveland's chances of putting together a cohesive, competitive team in the near future. And to pair it with the Bennett selection, when Bennett is an undersized and overweight power forward who plays the same position as both Thompson and Varejao... I don't think train wreck is an overstatement, and I hate to see Kyrie languishing there.
    Let's give Cleveland credit for drafting KI in the first place, right? Alot of experts were saying Williams should be the #1 pick over Irving. So the Cavs were smart enough to pick KI. Also, everyone was bashing Cleveland for taking T. Thompson 4th. Tristan struggled his 1st year but how does that look now?

    Now, who would you have drafted instead of Waiters? MKG and Beal(who the Cavs wanted) were both gone by the time they picked 4th. Maybe Barnes(the jury's still out on him) or Lillard but hindsight's 20/20. nbadraft.net had Waiters drafted 7th in their final mock draft, not that big of a reach seeing as he went 4th. I think it's too early to call Waiters a bust yet.

    Bennett does seem to be an odd fit at the moment. But don't be surprised if Cleveland trades Varejao(as he's older and injury-prone) making Bennett a better fit. Bennett's played a dozen games, let's hold off on calling him a bust just yet, too. He's been injured so it's going to be a while before he's back in shape.

    While the Cavs have had higher draft picks, the last few drafts have been pretty weak to say the least. They've done about as good as anyone has drafting lately.

    Let's revisit at the All-Star break. Things may look different for the Cavs by then.

    And as far as Kyrie leaving Cleveland - It aint gonna happen. No way Kyrie walks away from his 1st max contract with all of the injuries he's had so far.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by BlueDevilBrowns View Post
    And as far as Kyrie leaving Cleveland - It aint gonna happen. No way Kyrie walks away from his 1st max contract with all of the injuries he's had so far.
    Hmm. Interesting. I don't follow the NBA contract system -- how long would Kyrie have to wait to get equivalent dollars elsewhere?

    I ask because, after getting his first contract, Kyrie may be willing to wait a bit/risk another injury, IF he thought that going to another team would put him in a better position to win.

    At any rate, my dream is that Lebron ends up back in Cleveland, playing with Kyrie, after his contract with Miami runs out. I'm not letting go of that one just yet.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by CPDUKEGUY24 View Post
    Maybe this has more to do with a mask, broken nose and black eye?

    http://cdn0.sbnation.com/assets/3566...ash_medium.gif

    I can't make out how much control Brewer had of that arm...
    OK, I hadn't seen that video. My bad for transmitting questionable information from the Worldwide Leader.

    Re: the Cavs organization, I just think they have badly bungled the last few drafts. When they drafted Waiters, all my friends who are NBA fans said, "isn't he a just less talented version Kyrie?" And while the jury might still be out on the Bennett pick, it won't be out much longer. Things could change, but at this rate he's headed for Sam Bowie territory.

    What's tough for Cleveland is that it is not exactly a dream destination for free agents. That means they need to build through the draft. Their GM ought to stop trying to be a savant (or fire whatever quants are telling him to draft these guys) and...well... replace himself with a new GM? I don't know. I just think they're over-thinking it.

    Having Parker team up with Kyrie would be awesome, but I don't know if Kyrie can psychologically handle another year of tanking.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    New York
    Quote Originally Posted by GGLC View Post
    Waiters was both an overdraft (nobody had him projected to go that high) AND a terrible fit with Kyrie. That pick alone significantly hurt Cleveland's chances of putting together a cohesive, competitive team in the near future. And to pair it with the Bennett selection, when Bennett is an undersized and overweight power forward who plays the same position as both Thompson and Varejao... I don't think train wreck is an overstatement, and I hate to see Kyrie languishing there.
    I would add the completely imagination-free rehiring of Mike Brown to that list as well.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Lewisville, NC
    Quote Originally Posted by g-money View Post
    OK, I hadn't seen that video. My bad for transmitting questionable information from the Worldwide Leader.

    Re: the Cavs organization, I just think they have badly bungled the last few drafts. When they drafted Waiters, all my friends who are NBA fans said, "isn't he a just less talented version Kyrie?" And while the jury might still be out on the Bennett pick, it won't be out much longer. Things could change, but at this rate he's headed for Sam Bowie territory.

    What's tough for Cleveland is that it is not exactly a dream destination for free agents. That means they need to build through the draft. Their GM ought to stop trying to be a savant (or fire whatever quants are telling him to draft these guys) and...well... replace himself with a new GM? I don't know. I just think they're over-thinking it.

    Having Parker team up with Kyrie would be awesome, but I don't know if Kyrie can psychologically handle another year of tanking.
    Didn't the Cavs also choose almost-a-Dukie Carrick Felix in this last draft?
    Is he on the roster or a D-League guy?

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by cato View Post
    Hmm. Interesting. I don't follow the NBA contract system -- how long would Kyrie have to wait to get equivalent dollars elsewhere?

    I ask because, after getting his first contract, Kyrie may be willing to wait a bit/risk another injury, IF he thought that going to another team would put him in a better position to win.

    At any rate, my dream is that Lebron ends up back in Cleveland, playing with Kyrie, after his contract with Miami runs out. I'm not letting go of that one just yet.
    Here's a couple of links regarding Irving and his max contract possibilities:

    http://probasketballtalk.nbcsports.c...lion-contract/

    http://probasketballtalk.nbcsports.c...ot-mad-at-okc/

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Des Esseintes View Post
    I would add the completely imagination-free rehiring of Mike Brown to that list as well.
    I think Mike Brown was the best at the time. Phil Jackson wasn't coming out of retirement and no one else more qualified was available. The Cavs were a pretty good offensive team last year but absolutely terrible on defense. I mean horrible. So bringing back Brown made sense, as defense is his specialty.

    The problem is Brown needs a strong offensive asst coach to balance out his obsession with defense, and he doesn't have one at the moment. The good news is Dan Gilbert, the owner, will get him one eventually.

    I can assure you Gilbert is absolutely committed to winning and his pockets are unlimited. Cleveland will be a winner again.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by roywhite View Post
    Didn't the Cavs also choose almost-a-Dukie Carrick Felix in this last draft?
    Is he on the roster or a D-League guy?
    He was drafted by Cleveland in the 2nd round. He's still on the roster. He's been out with an injury since the preseason so he hasn't played yet but is beginning to practice.

    This is a nice write-up on him from the Cleveland Plain Dealer during the preseason:

    http://www.cleveland.com/cavs/index...e_carrick.html

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
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    Washington, DC
    Quote Originally Posted by BlueDevilBrowns View Post
    Now, who would you have drafted instead of Waiters? MKG and Beal(who the Cavs wanted) were both gone by the time they picked 4th. Maybe Barnes(the jury's still out on him) or Lillard but hindsight's 20/20. nbadraft.net had Waiters drafted 7th in their final mock draft, not that big of a reach seeing as he went 4th. I think it's too early to call Waiters a bust yet.
    I would have drafted someone who doesn't require the ball in their hands to be effective. As for who they should have picked up instead, Barnes or Drummond were both good options...or they could have tried to trade up to grab Beal or down to get additional assets. What they should not have done was draft someone like Waiters. I mean, obviously the 2012 draft was fairly weak overall, but Kyrie and Waiters are not synergistic.

    The bottom line is that they've had the #1 pick twice and the #4 pick twice in the last three years, and they've come away with one superstar and overdrafted on three other guys, none of whom look like their career ceiling is anywhere close to All-Star level at this point. (And I say that despite being a fan of Thompson generally.)

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Boston, MA
    Quote Originally Posted by GGLC View Post
    I would have drafted someone who doesn't require the ball in their hands to be effective. As for who they should have picked up instead, Barnes or Drummond were both good options...or they could have tried to trade up to grab Beal or down to get additional assets. What they should not have done was draft someone like Waiters. I mean, obviously the 2012 draft was fairly weak overall, but Kyrie and Waiters are not synergistic.

    The bottom line is that they've had the #1 pick twice and the #4 pick twice in the last three years, and they've come away with one superstar and overdrafted on three other guys, none of whom look like their career ceiling is anywhere close to All-Star level at this point. (And I say that despite being a fan of Thompson generally.)
    Hate to say it, but this would have been an incredible pick up. There was a lot of speculation surrounding Barnes. Why the Cavs didn't pick him up I'll never understand.

    Waiters and then Bennett? Watch them get the second pick this year and spend it on Aaron Gordon...
    Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfils the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things. - Winston Churchill

    President of the "Nolan Smith Should Have His Jersey in The Rafters" Club

  19. #19
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    Dec 2009
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    Washington, DC
    Barnes could have helped a ton with spacing.

  20. #20
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    Dec 2009
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    New York
    Quote Originally Posted by BlueDevilBrowns View Post
    I think Mike Brown was the best at the time. Phil Jackson wasn't coming out of retirement and no one else more qualified was available. The Cavs were a pretty good offensive team last year but absolutely terrible on defense. I mean horrible. So bringing back Brown made sense, as defense is his specialty.

    The problem is Brown needs a strong offensive asst coach to balance out his obsession with defense, and he doesn't have one at the moment. The good news is Dan Gilbert, the owner, will get him one eventually.

    I can assure you Gilbert is absolutely committed to winning and his pockets are unlimited. Cleveland will be a winner again.
    Look, Mike Brown isn't a disastrous choice. But as others have noted about the Cavs' drafts, there were in fact better options. Stan Van Gundy eminently fits the "more qualified" and "available" requirements. George Karl does, too. That doesn't even include the field of assistants who have yet to be head coaches but who offer a higher upside than a retread such as Brown.

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