MBB: Duke v. Alabama Pre-Game and In-Game Thread

[Matches]

Coach K is unpredictable so I am not certain you are correct. From my vantage point, on the couch in front of the TV, Dawkins played better than Sulaimon and Thornton. If he followed up with a strong practice, he might have earned the start.

Dawkins' first half against Vermont was the best I've seen him play on offense. LOVED watching him take it into the paint rather than just spot-up shooting. I'd be surprised to see him start just because he is still quite limited defensively, but as you say K can be unpredictable.

[Troublemaker]

Of course, that group would be a bit more of an offensive liability, as only 3 guys can create offense. But maybe relying entirely on Cook/Hood/Parker offensively isn't such a bad thing?

I think it would be. Jabari and Rodney won't shoot above 60% from three all season and Rodney won't continue to shoot 66% from two. We need Sheed to get going offensively just to offset Jabari and Rodney's eventual decline from superhuman to mere excellence, assuming the goal is to remain a top-5 offensive team while the defense improves. I'm comfortable with Tyler and Josh as 5th options (well, more Tyler than Josh), but I don't think having them both on the court together in the predominant lineup would be a good idea long-term.

[Matches]

I'm comfortable with Tyler and Josh as 5th options (well, more Tyler than Josh), but I don't think having them both on the court together in the predominant lineup would be a good idea long-term.

Even if that does materialize as the starting lineup tomorrow night, I don't think there's any way it will become the predominant lineup, if for no other reason than the chances of both TT and Josh staying on the court 25+ minutes without being in foul trouble are very slim.

[Kedsy]

Would not be at all surprised to see a starting 5 of Cook, Thornton, Hood, Parker, Hairston, with the idea being that Thornton and Hairston are our most experienced players and thus the most familiar with the defensive principles Coach K espouses.

I thought Rasheed played at least as good if not better D than Tyler in the Vermont game, although maybe Tyler is a better communicator which we certainly need.

Assuming today is a travel day, that means the team only had one day of practice after the Sunday debacle against Vermont. So presumably nobody could have earned a starting spot based on his practice for the week. I suppose it's possible Coach K might try something for shock value for the first few minutes of the game. Based on their foul rates, though, if he starts Tyler and Josh he might not get much more than those few minutes out of his starting lineup.

Not only that, in my view the worst culprits on defense against Vermont were Jabari, Quinn, and Rodney. Not sure what sort of message it sends if you start the three guys who played the worst defense and replace the other two guys in the starting lineup. I think there's a chance he keeps the lineup the way it is and challenges Rodney and Jabari to rise to the defensive occasion.

[GGLC]

Eh, I think that gimmick may have run its course. I would not be surprised to see any of the following lineups though:

Cook, TT, Sheed, Hood, Parker
Cook, TT, Hood, Parker, Hairston
Cook, Sheed, Hood, Parker, Hairston
Cook, TT, Hood, Parker, Amile

K identified lack of communication as our key problem on D, so it stands to reason that if he makes a change, it'll be to guys who he sees as good communicators.

Ugh.

I'd love to see a Cook/Jones/Hood/Parker/Jefferson or Cook/Hood/Ojeleye/Parker/Jefferson lineup just to shake things up a bit. What we do not need is Hairston getting starter's minutes, even if only at the beginning of the game.

Give Matt and Semi a chance!

[GGLC]

Not only that, in my view the worst culprits on defense against Vermont were Jabari, Quinn, and Rodney. Not sure what sort of message it sends if you start the three guys who played the worst defense and replace the other two guys in the starting lineup. I think there's a chance he keeps the lineup the way it is and challenges Rodney and Jabari to rise to the defensive occasion.

This is a good point as well. So I look forward to a Jones/Sulaimon/Murphy/Semi/Jefferson starting lineup!

[DeBlueDevil]

I want a lineup of Cook, Hood, Jabari, Amile and Plumlee. Let's go big, play off a little - a la 2010, get rebounds and protect the rim. Heck, we aren't creating turnovers by going small... why not?

I like this idea!!! I do not see a major drop off in offensive production from the other starting lineup, that is unless Marshall just isn't capable which I don't find the case. Rasheed has been playing ok but it's not like we wouldn't be able to produce with this lineup on the floor. We'd still have our two deadly scorers on the court with our starting PG and we gain more of a post presence with Amile and Marshall now in the post. We lose a little bit of perimeter shooting but it's not a huge step back as Andre and Rasheed having particularly been lights out all season. Of course during the game there will be the usual stretches of Andre, Rasheed, etc. subbing in. But I would love to just take a look at that lineup on the floor.

Plus as far as tempo, I'd imagine it'd slow things down a little but not much. Marshall is capable of running the floor. Just curious as to what more people may think??

[Kedsy]

I like this idea!!! I do not see a major drop off in offensive production from the other starting lineup, that is unless Marshall just isn't capable which I don't find the case. Rasheed has been playing ok but it's not like we wouldn't be able to produce with this lineup on the floor. We'd still have our two deadly scorers on the court with our starting PG and we gain more of a post presence with Amile and Marshall now in the post. We lose a little bit of perimeter shooting but it's not a huge step back as Andre and Rasheed having particularly been lights out all season. Of course during the game there will be the usual stretches of Andre, Rasheed, etc. subbing in. But I would love to just take a look at that lineup on the floor.

Plus as far as tempo, I'd imagine it'd slow things down a little but not much. Marshall is capable of running the floor. Just curious as to what more people may think??

That lineup would contain exactly zero players who have shown they can successfully execute Duke's defensive schemes. Sure, all of them have the potential to be good defensive players, but so far none of them have done it. If the problem to be solved is defense, I can't see why we'd run that lineup out there. Especially since that lineup would also clearly be worse on offense than our current starting lineup.

[CajunDevil]

That lineup would contain exactly zero players who have shown they can successfully execute Duke's defensive schemes. Sure, all of them have the potential to be good defensive players, but so far none of them have done it. If the problem to be solved is defense, I can't see why we'd run that lineup out there. Especially since that lineup would also clearly be worse on offense than our current starting lineup.

Kedsy - in that case, we shouldn't start ANYONE... (Josh's D has been neutralized given the change in block/charge, and Tyler has his two hands permanently affixed to the offensive player - even on desperation threes). The big linup would clearly protect the rim much better than any other lineup, and offensive firepower is sufficient. Additionally, in the event there is a missed shot on offense, we will actually have a chance of getting an offensive rebound. Defensive rebounding would be vastly improved and could even lead to more fast breaks than our current - nonsteal, nonrebound transition game.

[davekay1971]

From my second watching of the game, Andre's play on ball screens (one of our two biggest defensive issues in the game) was actually pretty good. He, Tyler, and Josh were all pretty good, at least compared to Jabari, Rodney, and Quinn. Which makes sense because Andre, Tyler, and Josh are all seniors.

K's defensive system takes time to learn. We've seen plenty of guys simply not be very good defenders walking in the door at Duke, and improve over time. One of the reasons I have hopes for defensive improvement from our team as the season goes on.

I love everything I've seen out of Andre this season - not only is that beautiful shot back, but he seems more confident overall, happier, and he seems to be stepping up to the role of a veteran leader.

[OZZIE4DUKE]

I'll be there rooting us to victory! Let's Go DUKE! And, as always, especially this week, GO TO HELL carolina! 9F!

[BD80]

I think K will start whoever does not have a broken nose from the post-game practice.

I would suggest the opposite, the players who HAVE gotten their nose broken are the list of starters.

From my second watching of the game, Andre's play on ball screens (one of our two biggest defensive issues in the game) was actually pretty good. He, Tyler, and Josh were all pretty good, at least compared to Jabari, Rodney, and Quinn. Which makes sense because Andre, Tyler, and Josh are all seniors.

Andre did lose his man for a couple backdoor cuts, but overall his positioning wasn't bad at all.

Which illustrates the complexity of Coach K's defensive scheme. In concentrating on being available to rotate into the box to help, Andre lost track of his man who had floated to the corner until Andre turned his head, and then broke to the basket along the baseline. Andre was in the right area, he just wasn't positioned to watch his man AND be ready to help down low. Watch Shane play, every movement of the ball causes him to adjust - even if it is just his stance. It takes a while for these things to become second nature. We have a few more games and a few more practices to get better before tourney time.

BTW: for those begging for a bit of zone D, we actually have played a little zone, to me an indicator that they are working on it in practice and will deploy it more in games throughout the season. Of course, it is a 3/4 court zone trapping defense, and the team retreats into MTM once the press is broken.

[DeBlueDevil]

Kedsy - in that case, we shouldn't start ANYONE... (Josh's D has been neutralized given the change in block/charge, and Tyler has his two hands permanently affixed to the offensive player - even on desperation threes). The big linup would clearly protect the rim much better than any other lineup, and offensive firepower is sufficient. Additionally, in the event there is a missed shot on offense, we will actually have a chance of getting an offensive rebound. Defensive rebounding would be vastly improved and could even lead to more fast breaks than our current - nonsteal, nonrebound transition game.

I 2nd that CajunDevil, I can't agree more with the fact that NO ONE has shown the ability to play great defense so to your point Kedsy, no one would start. Further Kedsy, I don't think it's such a huge dropoff in offense being as though Jabari and Rodney have driven the offense thus far this season w/ Quinn, Rasheed, and Andre occasionally pitching in. They'll still be in the lineup. Again maybe we give up a little in 3 pt shooting but we haven't been that deadly from 3 thus far IMO. If we play off a little bit and add some size to protect the rim a little more, perhaps we actually slow the other teams offense down. We won't need to score 90-100 points a game to win the game. Thus the offensive drop off you fear won't be such a huge difference.

And it's not like we can't substitute to play up tempo if need be. I'm not saying leave this lineup in the whole game, I'm just saying I don't think it's such a bad idea to give it a shot and see if it gives the opposing offense at least a little bit more to think about before driving the lanes and killing us on the boards. The announcers said numerous times (not that they are experts) that we have absolutely no shot blocking threat in the post. And not that Marshall is "the landlord" down there but he definitely is capable of at least giving us some size and presence along with Amile.

Also, it forces the other teams defense to try and matchup with us which I think is pretty tough given the size we'd be putting on the court not to mention Rodney and Jabari being matchup nightmares at the 2 and 3. But again...just suggesting.

[MCFinARL]

I think K will start whoever does not have a broken nose from the post-game practice.

Well, now, doesn't that depend on exactly how the nose was broken? Maybe the player(s) WITH the broken noses will be the hard chargers who are selected to start, in masks.

[noworries]

Ugh.

I'd love to see a Cook/Jones/Hood/Parker/Jefferson or Cook/Hood/Ojeleye/Parker/Jefferson lineup just to shake things up a bit. What we do not need is Hairston getting starter's minutes, even if only at the beginning of the game.

Give Matt and Semi a chance!

I'd certainly be ok with giving this a go. Semi has been knocking down the outside shot and with his athleticism, he should be cleaning up the glass if he wants to.

[Sandman]

K's defensive system takes time to learn. We've seen plenty of guys simply not be very good defenders walking in the door at Duke, and improve over time. One of the reasons I have hopes for defensive improvement from our team as the season goes on.

Coach K has has gotten much praise, rightfully so, for his flexibility in "adjusting his offense to take advantage of his teams' abilities". Why does he seem reluctant to apply the same flexibility to his defense? This team does not seem ready/capable of performing at the historical Duke defensive level. With 3 definite and 5 or 6 possible players leaving after this year, it doesn't seem to me that there's a lot to gain by pursuing defensive strategies that will pay off in future years, even though this is a relatively young team.

[Eakane]

K's defensive system takes time to learn. We've seen plenty of guys simply not be very good defenders walking in the door at Duke, and improve over time. One of the reasons I have hopes for defensive improvement from our team as the season goes on.

Exactly right. I expect K to stick with pressure man to man, but it is a particularly difficult defense to "get" and execute. It will take time. I wouldn't expect it to turn around in one game. The good news is that it's the kind of thing that can be worked on by looking at tape and practicing sets. I don't think K was upset that the defense was bad; he was upset with the apparent lack of effort; the lack of respect for the game (as he put it). Two scares at home against middle of the road teams should be enough to light a fire under them. Heck, look how Carolina responded to their home loss.

[Kedsy]

Kedsy - in that case, we shouldn't start ANYONE... (Josh's D has been neutralized given the change in block/charge, and Tyler has his two hands permanently affixed to the offensive player - even on desperation threes). The big linup would clearly protect the rim much better than any other lineup, and offensive firepower is sufficient. Additionally, in the event there is a missed shot on offense, we will actually have a chance of getting an offensive rebound. Defensive rebounding would be vastly improved and could even lead to more fast breaks than our current - nonsteal, nonrebound transition game.

First, I don't think having a 7-foot center would have stopped one single basket scored by Vermont the other day. Vermont players were either open because of bad switching on ball screens or because their ball handlers penetrated past their man and our big had to leave his man to close on the ball handler, leaving someone open for a layup. Marshall would have had to do the exact same thing Amile and Josh did, with the exact same results.

Second, Vermont got a grand total of 6 offensive rebounds, so how "vast" would the improvement have been?

Third, I have no idea what you're talking about with the "actually have a chance of getting an offensive rebound" crack. We crushed Vermont on the offensive boards, grabbing 14, which is almost 44% of available offensive rebounds. Not only that, but Amile is an excellent offensive rebounder. Last season he was Duke's leader in offensive rebounding percentage, significantly better than Mason, and if he'd played enough he would have ranked 4th in the ACC in OR%.

Finally, based on his numbers so far, Marshall isn't nearly as good a rebounder (offensive or defensive) as Amile is. Frankly, his defensive rebounding percentage (10.3%) is not only worse than Amile's (17.8%), it's also worse than Rasheed's (12.1%) and Andre's (11.2%). This is not to bust on Marshall, but just to say your underlying assumptions are flawed and thus your conclusions are probably incorrect.

[MChambers]

Coach K has has gotten much praise, rightfully so, for his flexibility in "adjusting his offense to take advantage of his teams' abilities". Why does he seem reluctant to apply the same flexibility to his defense? This team does not seem ready/capable of performing at the historical Duke defensive level. With 3 definite and 5 or 6 possible players leaving after this year, it doesn't seem to me that there's a lot to gain by pursuing defensive strategies that will pay off in future years, even though this is a relatively young team.

Why do you think he is reluctant to be flexible with his defensive approach? It's true that he disdains the zone and sticks with man-to-man, but he has been quite flexible as to what kind of man-to-man. Contrast 2010 with 2001, for example.

Or are you talking about the first handful of games this year?

[Kedsy]

Further Kedsy, I don't think it's such a huge dropoff in offense being as though Jabari and Rodney have driven the offense thus far this season w/ Quinn, Rasheed, and Andre occasionally pitching in.

Marshall has by far the worst oRtg on the team. Whether or not it matters is another question, but there would indeed be a huge dropoff in offense.

Again maybe we give up a little in 3 pt shooting but we haven't been that deadly from 3 thus far IMO.

For the season we're shooting 45.2% from three-point range, which is 13th best in the country. What would "deadly" look like in your eyes?

I'm just saying I don't think it's such a bad idea to give it a shot and see if it gives the opposing offense at least a little bit more to think about before driving the lanes and killing us on the boards.

If Marshall was ready to contribute in the way you suggest, don't you think Coach K would already be playing him? And if he's not ready, then plugging him in for starter's minutes would almost certainly be a bad idea.