The Cobb County Braves

[Duvall]

Yeah, that cracked me up too. Must not mean that in the political sense.


Clearly.

Well, they are planning to try to boost their economy with a massive expenditure of public funds. That's progressive-ish, right?

[Dev11]

Apparently there are going to be Disney World-style trams ferrying people from parking lots around the area, so that should work out.

That sounds dangerously like public transit to me, which from what I understand from wilson, is more or less banned in Cobb County.

[Duvall]

That sounds dangerously like public transit to me, which from what I understand from wilson, is more or less banned in Cobb County.

I imagine that intra-Cobb public transit is fine, as long as it doesn't cross the county line.

[-jk]

Apparently there are going to be Disney World-style trams ferrying people from parking lots around the area, so that should work out.

Dovetails quite nicely with their entertainment district. Worried about crowded trams? Park early, catch a tram. Hang out after the game, catch a tram. Don't worry, the tram's free. But spend lots of money timing it.

Captive audiences are the best audiences.

-jk

[OldPhiKap]

That sounds dangerously like public transit to me, which from what I understand from wilson, is more or less banned in Cobb County.

"M[_]RTA"

The idea that Cobb County will make it easy for Fulton County residents to get there is beyond anything reality would suggest.

[throatybeard]

Sorry, I've been AWOL for a while since a trip to Chicago.

I want to say that everyone should read Wilson's blog post. I shared it both on Twitter and Facebook. It hits almost all the salient points.

I have supported the Braves since I was seven years old. My support of the franchise ends with the move to Cobb. I'm done. If the Cardinals were to move to Saint Charles County, I'd be done with them, too.

There are many short-sighted things about this move, but one of the dumbest is the assumption that gasoline will always be as cheap as it is now. And these days, people don't think it's cheap, even though in the global scheme of things, it is.

[wilson]

There are many short-sighted things about this move, but one of the dumbest is the assumption that gasoline will always be as cheap as it is now. And these days, people don't think it's cheap, even though in the global scheme of things, it is.

Great observation here.
This whole thing reminds me of "more prisons, more guards" as a crime solution. It cynically treats the most visible symptom without any substantive forward engagement with the true roots of the problem.

[Channing]

"M[_]RTA"

The idea that Cobb County will make it easy for Fulton County residents to get there is beyond anything reality would suggest.

This is really a silly argument. The objective is to get as many fans into the stadium as possible, regardless of whether they come from Fulton, Cobb, Dekalb, Putnam, or any other county. It is currently very difficult to get to the stadium from North Fulton County or from Cobb County. There have been no real attempts to fix that adn there was even an attempt to get rid of the MARTA shuttles that made it at least somewhat accessible (they were brought back after public outcry). Nevertheless, there was no complaining that there was an attempt to keep fans from the northern suburbs out of the game.

Atlanta is a driving city - regardless of where the stadium is the city has made it clear there will not be a major expansion of the MARTA. The above statement is nothing but race bating, IMO.

Sorry, I've been AWOL for a while since a trip to Chicago.

I want to say that everyone should read Wilson's blog post. I shared it both on Twitter and Facebook. It hits almost all the salient points.

I have supported the Braves since I was seven years old. My support of the franchise ends with the move to Cobb. I'm done. If the Cardinals were to move to Saint Charles County, I'd be done with them, too.

There are many short-sighted things about this move, but one of the dumbest is the assumption that gasoline will always be as cheap as it is now. And these days, people don't think it's cheap, even though in the global scheme of things, it is.

Atlanta had an opportunity to match Cobb's offer. They passed. Kasim Reid made the decision not to invest the requested money into the stadium. Putting aside whether the improvements are necessary, the fact of the matter is the team wanted them. They essentially put out an RFP, and went with the winning bidder.

In response to the inevitable statement that the team should be more than a business, it should represent the city, I would counter with (1) it is still considered part of Atlanta and (2) they made themselves more accessible to the vast majority of their paying customers. How is that not a good thing?

Great observation here.
This whole thing reminds me of "more prisons, more guards" as a crime solution. It cynically treats the most visible symptom without any substantive forward engagement with the true roots of the problem.

Here is the problem: The stadium is not very accessible to the vast majority of the most prized fans ... the season ticket holders.

Here is the solution: Move the stadium to much closer proximity to those prized fans.

That doesn't strike me as short sighted at all. Not only that, there is a plan to implement commerce in the surrounding area, and to bring the area to a level of use it is not currently experiencing. The city had 50 years to do the same at the Ted, including the great impetus that was the Olympics, and failed to do so time and time again.

[wilson]

This is really a silly argument. The objective is to get as many fans into the stadium as possible, regardless of whether they come from Fulton, Cobb, Dekalb, Putnam, or any other county. It is currently very difficult to get to the stadium from North Fulton County or from Cobb County. There have been no real attempts to fix that adn there was even an attempt to get rid of the MARTA shuttles that made it at least somewhat accessible (they were brought back after public outcry). Nevertheless, there was no complaining that there was an attempt to keep fans from the northern suburbs out of the game.

Atlanta is a driving city - regardless of where the stadium is the city has made it clear there will not be a major expansion of the MARTA. The above statement is nothing but race bating, IMO.

Right, but part of my point is that the reason Atlanta is such a "driving city" is because places like Cobb have, for 40+ years, refused to consider any transportation alternative to "get in your car, drive there, drive back, get out of your car."
Now, in the face of complaints about the difficulty of reaching the stadium, Cobb is being rewarded for their own obstructionism with a new stadium in their backyard. And we can call it race-baiting or whatever else, but it is fact that Cobb and other northern suburbs have made it abundantly clear for a long time that there are certain kinds of people that they would prefer to keep out.
The city did attempt to pitch a spur line to Turner Field about 3 or 4 years ago, and they were just stonewalled by the Braves...no rebuttal, no counter-proposal, just no response at all. I would also point out that public transit is a situation where the whole can be greater than the sum of its parts. If it weren't fractured into the alphabet soup of MARTA, CCT, Gwinnett County Tranist, etc., then regional solutions would now be much more extensive and cohesive. Cobb County created CCT as a bus-only service after rejecting multiple referendums that would have had them pay into MARTA's coffers by way of designated sales tax funds. To me, it's not quite fair to complain about transit options to and from your community when you yourselves have been standing in the way of additional solutions for decades.

[Duvall]

The city did attempt to pitch a spur line to Turner Field about 3 or 4 years ago, and they were just stonewalled by the Braves...no rebuttal, no counter-proposal, just no response at all.

Is there anything more out there about this? I'm curious.

[wilson]

Is there anything more out there about this? I'm curious.

Mea culpa: I misremembered part of this story. After repeated inability to engage with MARTA regarding rail expansion, the Braves attempted to partner with a private maglev train company:
http://www.myajc.com/news/news/local...uggests/nZQPF/
I've been clear that the City of Atlanta bears some blame in this situation, and this inability to partner with the Braves on MARTA is a key example. However, Atlanta has been shouldering the costs of MARTA on its own ever since the system's inception, because as I mentioned above, nobody else wants to pitch in. Communities outside the city limits keep saying they want it to be easier to get to and from the stadium, but they've been repeatedly, obstinately unwilling to contribute to any means of making that happen.

[Duvall]

Here is the problem: The stadium is not very accessible to the vast majority of the most prized fans ... the season ticket holders.

Here is the solution: Move the stadium to much closer proximity to those prized fans.

That's *a* solution, and one that will cost at least $670 million, and probably a lot more. And we don't know how accessible the Galleria site will be without a massive infrastructure upgrade for that area. Wouldn't it have been cheaper to make Turner Field more accessible, or easier to move the team to an area near the Georgia Dome that's already accessible?

[wilson]

That's *a* solution, and one that will cost at least $670 million, and probably a lot more. And we don't know how accessible the Galleria site will be without a massive infrastructure upgrade for that area. Wouldn't it have been cheaper to make Turner Field more accessible, or easier to move the team to an area near the Georgia Dome that's already accessible?

Exactly. Plus this could bring with it the added benefit of greater overall connectivity for our city. This is precisely what I mean by treating the symptom and not the cause, but again, Cobb has never really been interested in alleviating these overall problems.

[Channing]

That's *a* solution, and one that will cost at least $670 million, and probably a lot more. And we don't know how accessible the Galleria site will be without a massive infrastructure upgrade for that area. Wouldn't it have been cheaper to make Turner Field more accessible, or easier to move the team to an area near the Georgia Dome that's already accessible?

The city turned down the opportunity to keep the stadium in the city of Atlanta. Marta was built, for whatever reason, without a Fulton County/Turner Field stop. I'm not sure why the team would turn down a stadium spur (since i don't think they own the surrounding parking - that is owned by the city), but a spur is no better than the current shuttle system.

There is no infrastructure around the current stadium, and anytime there is a big game drawing a big crowd, down town is ground to a halt. The city has never addressed that and there is nothing to indicate they ever will.

Moving the stadium closer to the Ga Done/Phillips complex is an idea, but negotiating with the surrounding neighborhoods proved difficult (and expensive) for the Falcons, and the city made clear they wouldn't support building a new stadium.

Unless I am missing something, the City of Atlanta had every opportunity to keep the Braves. The Braves wanted a new stadium or upgrades, and the city said no. The city put no resources into developing the area around the stadium. Kasim Reid (who I think is doing a good job) decided he wanted to allocate resources elsewhere.

Baseball is a business - and like any business it is your right to support them or not support them. Should the team have turned down a brand new stadium and an opportunity to get closer to their fans? Not if the name of the game is generating revenue. If the city wasn't willing to get behind the Braves, I don't think they should be castigated for going somewhere that was begging them to come.

[A-Tex Devil]

So I am just catching up on this. When I first heard the story and the outcry, I was thinking the stadium was going to be in Acworth or something. But it's going to be in the Galleria area, right? Unless things have changed in the last 12 years since I've been out of Atlanta, that's pretty much within Atlanta proper as far as I'm concerned.

I get the public transportation issues, and those will need to be addressed. But from a location perspective, is it really that bad? It could be Jerryworld in Irving (instead of Dallas) or the 49ers playing in Santa Clara, or the Giants and Jets in NJ.

[OldPhiKap]

The city turned down the opportunity to keep the stadium in the city of Atlanta. Marta was built, for whatever reason, without a Fulton County/Turner Field stop. I'm not sure why the team would turn down a stadium spur (since i don't think they own the surrounding parking - that is owned by the city), but a spur is no better than the current shuttle system.

There is no infrastructure around the current stadium, and anytime there is a big game drawing a big crowd, down town is ground to a halt. The city has never addressed that and there is nothing to indicate they ever will.

Moving the stadium closer to the Ga Done/Phillips complex is an idea, but negotiating with the surrounding neighborhoods proved difficult (and expensive) for the Falcons, and the city made clear they wouldn't support building a new stadium.

Unless I am missing something, the City of Atlanta had every opportunity to keep the Braves. The Braves wanted a new stadium or upgrades, and the city said no. The city put no resources into developing the area around the stadium. Kasim Reid (who I think is doing a good job) decided he wanted to allocate resources elsewhere.

Baseball is a business - and like any business it is your right to support them or not support them. Should the team have turned down a brand new stadium and an opportunity to get closer to their fans? Not if the name of the game is generating revenue. If the city wasn't willing to get behind the Braves, I don't think they should be castigated for going somewhere that was begging them to come.

The city determined that it could not put that amount of public funds into the project, given the state economy and the football stadium that is already committed. It is not a matter of desire on the part of the city, or even getting closer to the fans -- it is a matter of the owners trying to secure the biggest government tax subsidy they can find. Which is fine, but I do not see a reason to celebrate it. Or pretend that it is being done to benefit the fans.

The argument that it is moving to accommodate more fans is malarkey. They are reducing the number of seats for criminy's sake.

And as you apparently know, "downtown" business is at Five Points and Midtown (and on up to Buckhead) -- not East of the Capitol. If you think traffic is bad now, try heading up I-75 on a game night once this is built at the corner of the perimeter. Let alone trying to get across spaghetti junction from Gwinnett, Athens, Conyers, etc. the idea that this is better for the general traveling public is beyond me.

As far as transportation, etc. -- MARTA does not run to the suburbs because the suburbs will not allow it. If they cannot get to the stadium, it's their own damn fault. I respectfully suggest that you point your comments about race-baiting to the voters there, not me. (Sorry for the rant, but yeah I do not take that lightly).

[-jk]

So I am just catching up on this. When I first heard the story and the outcry, I was thinking the stadium was going to be in Acworth or something. But it's going to be in the Galleria area, right? Unless things have changed in the last 12 years since I've been out of Atlanta, that's pretty much within Atlanta proper as far as I'm concerned.

I get the public transportation issues, and those will need to be addressed. But from a location perspective, is it really that bad? It could be Jerryworld in Irving (instead of Dallas) or the 49ers playing in Santa Clara, or the Giants and Jets in NJ.

Football's a half dozen home games a year. Baseball is different.

-jk

[OldPhiKap]

Football's a half dozen home games a year. Baseball is different.

-jk

And a Sunday, not a work night rush hour.

[throatybeard]

Wilson and OPK have my proxy, and I would note also that lots of cities in this nation have very similar problems.

When the Lambert line of the Saint Louis metro was built, they had funding to run it all the way out to Old Town Saint Charles. People in Saint Charles County strenuously objected to the idea that anyone from the City could visit them on a train.

Ever notice that it's hard to get to Georgetown University from the DC Metro? GU wanted it that way.

[OldPhiKap]

Every notice that it's hard to get to Georgetown University from the DC Metro? GU wanted it that way.

Probably the best example of the issue, throaty.