PJ Hairston saga

[devildeac]

and maybe not. Who's to say without all the facts, and we don't know all the facts.

Well the answer is in Roy put the hammer down,PJ will not be allowed to choose where the team will eat their post game meals . This may well be cruel and unusual punishment[/QUOTE]


The only one this will potentially affect will be young Kennedy Meeks at 6'9" and a slim, trim 290 pounds.

[SilkyJ]

This Fats guys felonies had nothing to do with PJ. Having said that, PJ has no business hanging with guys like that as a UNC basketball player, a lesson he has learned.

How can you definitively state that he has learned his lesson? What evidence do you have to suggest that? A few months of no transgressions?

BTW, There is no evidence at this time that the cars were rented for PJ that we have seen. Zero. Just because it keeps getting repeated on here and pack pride does not make it so.

Dude, we've got to work on your math. First you claim 2 strikes when its 4, now you say zero evidence when there is a piece evidence. The most damming kind, infact: from the horse's mouth. PJ admitted it to police! Per Duvall's linked article:

“Mr. Hairston stated that ‘Fatts’ rented the vehicle for Mr. Hairston because he was planning on traveling to Atlanta this weekend to see some friends,” the report said.

Link

There is only evidence that he drove them, as did many other kids.

This is now a moot point as you have been corrected. But, who cares if other kids drove them? Is that a "well they were doing it to" defense? Doesn't matter I guess, but that's weak if that's what you're going for.

Remember, full disciplinary actions are not complete.

I honestly don't really care what Roy does or does not do, as long as the kid makes better life decisions. That said, I don't think he's been treated harshly enough to really teach him a lesson, whereas you think he has received an appropriate level of punishment (or close to it). However, I think your opinion is distorted by your view of the facts, or your selective memory and omission of some facts. Witness: PJ has not had 2 strikes, he has 4, which I outlined earlier. Moreover, 2 of those strikes involved association with a known felon. Even further, the cars were rented specifically for him by this drug dealer, something you claimed was not true and used as a defense.

I don't know what the right recourse is for all those transgressions, and I'm not really trying to opine on that, but you are simply making up your own facts now and that needs correction. In light of these actual facts, if you still believe what you've been spouting, then you should just admit that whatever Roy does if fine by you regardless of what's really happened, b/c you are clearly not forming an opinion based on the actual events.

[oldnavy]

Personally, I am not sure what Roy should do at this point, it's a tough call. If you boot PJ off the team, then you lose all "influence" over him and he is free to run with "Fats" and company do whatever he wants... (as much as he can get away). Does that really "teach" him anything? Probably not. If you do too little, then that is just as bad if not worse. What is the right thing to do?? I don't know. But I do know that having been "judge, jury and executioner" a few times in my Navy career, it is not easy nor is it enjoyable.

Roy, love him or hate him has more info and "knows" PJ better than any of us, and despite his tendency to have "foot in mouth" disease, I do think he cares enough for his kids to do what he thinks is best for them. Not sure why I believe that, but I do.

The problem is that the "black cloud" hanging over CH makes everyone outside of the UNC family EXPECT that they will do as little as possible instead of "the right thing".

[Dr. Rosenrosen]

Personally, I am not sure what Roy should do at this point, it's a tough call. If you boot PJ off the team, then you lose all "influence" over him and he is free to run with "Fats" and company do whatever he wants... (as much as he can get away). Does that really "teach" him anything? Probably not. If you do too little, then that is just as bad if not worse. What is the right thing to do?? I don't know. But I do know that having been "judge, jury and executioner" a few times in my Navy career, it is not easy nor is it enjoyable.

Roy, love him or hate him has more info and "knows" PJ better than any of us, and despite his tendency to have "foot in mouth" disease, I do think he cares enough for his kids to do what he thinks is best for them. Not sure why I believe that, but I do.

The problem is that the "black cloud" hanging over CH makes everyone outside of the UNC family EXPECT that they will do as little as possible instead of "the right thing".

If Roy boots him off the team, it opens the door for PJ to tell all. And no one on the hump wants that.

[sagegrouse]

If Roy boots him off the team, it opens the door for PJ to tell all. And no one on the hump wants that.

Let's remember, Roy needs to resist imposing any penalty on Hairston at this point until the NCAA weighs in. The NCAA will come in with a proposed penalty for the rental car business, and possibly other stuff. So, there will be negotiation with UNC, , and the UNC hierarchy doesn't want to give up anything until it has to -- good negotiating strategy, although not exactly The Carolina Way.

sagegrouse

[Henderson]

Personally, I am not sure what Roy should do at this point, it's a tough call. If you boot PJ off the team, then you lose all "influence" over him and he is free to run with "Fats" and company do whatever he wants... (as much as he can get away). Does that really "teach" him anything? Probably not.

It might not teach PJ anything, but it would teach other players (present and future) something. And it would signal some standards at a school whose athletic department clearly needs to improve both its standards and the public's perception of those standards.

But that ain't gonna happen. PJ will be "suspended" for two or three chippy games, but having been practicing with the team all along, it's nothing to PJ or to the team.

[SilkyJ]

Let's remember, Roy needs to resist imposing any penalty on Hairston at this point until the NCAA weighs in. The NCAA will come in with a proposed penalty for the rental car business, and possibly other stuff. So, there will be negotiation with UNC, , and the UNC hierarchy doesn't want to give up anything until it has to -- good negotiating strategy, although not exactly The Carolina Way.

sagegrouse

Is that true? Is the NCAA actually investigating here? Not saying they aren't, I just wasn't sure that they were.

If they are, then that Definitely makes the situation murkier, but I disagree that Roy needs to wait for the NCAA before imposing ANY penalties. Roy can and ought to impose whatever penalties HE sees fit first. It's his program after all, and if the NCAA wants to come in above and beyond that, that's fine, but if I'm a coach then a player needs to uphold my standards and I need to set my own precedent first.

Now, I'm guessing you are referring to "how many games he should be suspended." That's fair to wait until you get guidance from the NCAA I guess...but doing that sends the message that you are going to do just the minimum that the NCAA demands and not necessarily uphold your own standards.

[UrinalCake]

Espn with a video update on PJ. He will be back when the team starts practice on Friday. The commentator guesses about a six game suspension. No mention of an NCAA investigation, apparently Roy gets to decide entirely on his own how long PJ should sit. A pretty biased viewpoint IMO. He does call out Roy and say that if this were a bench player he would have been kicked off the team. Then they have good laugh about that.

http://w88.m.espn.go.com/b/ss/wdgwes...0121D0%5BCE%5D

[sagegrouse]

Is that true? Is the NCAA actually investigating here? Not saying they aren't, I just wasn't sure that they were.

If they are, then that Definitely makes the situation murkier, but I disagree that Roy needs to wait for the NCAA before imposing ANY penalties. Roy can and ought to impose whatever penalties HE sees fit first. It's his program after all, and if the NCAA wants to come in above and beyond that, that's fine, but if I'm a coach then a player needs to uphold my standards and I need to set my own precedent first.

Now, I'm guessing you are referring to "how many games he should be suspended." That's fair to wait until you get guidance from the NCAA I guess...but doing that sends the message that you are going to do just the minimum that the NCAA demands and not necessarily uphold your own standards.

No I am not metaphysically certain that the NCAA and UNC are jointly investigating the rental car situation for P.J. Hairston. (I have no idea what "metaphysically certain" means, but I like the sound of it.) But, I ask you and others, why else is Roy waiting to impose punishment on P.J.? If the NCAA has closed the case or failed to open one, then Roy would go ahead and impose his penalties on P.J. -- eight games, four games, first-half of the first exhibition, or whatever.

Reflecting casually on other cases of "impermissible benefits," the NCAA would typically put a market value on the benefits and assess a suspension of a number of games -- or a whole -- season based on that value. But it's a discussion and negotiation with the school, with the UNC compliance and AD staff sharing its assessment with the NCAA and vice versa. From a negotiating perspective, Roy shouldn't impose a penalty until UNC hears from the NCAA because his penalty would be based on matters beyond the impermissible benefit, such as the speeding tickets and the pot. As a result, the NCAA would say its penalty should be additive to anything the coach comes up with.

sagegrouse

[Sir Stealth]

It's annoying that with the season starting back up, all of the focus is on PJ and the discipline that he personally may or may not face. I could really care less about PJ being punished for his legal infractions, but it blows my mind that the entire wheels for heels, etc. thing, where anyone can see that these guys were getting improper benefits from Fats and his people, not to mention the relationship with PJ and an agent, seems to be getting swept back under the rug. Hard to believe this can happen when all of this stuff went on while Carolina was already under the widespread institutional academic fraud cloud (one that the basketball team got off way easy for in my opinion), as well as the fallout from the other seedy elements running wild in the football program.

[77devil]

No I am not metaphysically certain that the NCAA and UNC are jointly investigating the rental car situation for P.J. Hairston. (I have no idea what "metaphysically certain" means, but I like the sound of it.) But, I ask you and others, why else is Roy waiting to impose punishment on P.J.? If the NCAA has closed the case or failed to open one, then Roy would go ahead and impose his penalties on P.J. -- eight games, four games, first-half of the first exhibition, or whatever.

sagegrouse

I'm pretty certain, if not metaphysically so, that you have watched The McLaughlin Group too much. In any event, Roy's reasoning for not imposing a penalty yet may be simply to keep his options open while P.J. makes amends. After three incidents, Roy is likely concerned about another one, and probably wants to keep P.J. on a motivational short leash by leaving the situation uncertain.

The more cynical interpretation is that Roy wants to be able to reinstate quickly with appropriate cover-"he was truly contrite, worked exceptionally hard, and was a model teammate"-should the P.J. less Heels look really bad without him.

[moonpie23]

PJ is now limited to only 3 instagram posts/day. more harsh punishment coming...

[OldPhiKap]

PJ is now limited to only 3 instagram posts/day. more harsh punishment coming...

And he must end all tweets with " #dumbarse "

[oldnavy]

It might not teach PJ anything, but it would teach other players (present and future) something. And it would signal some standards at a school whose athletic department clearly needs to improve both its standards and the public's perception of those standards.

But that ain't gonna happen. PJ will be "suspended" for two or three chippy games, but having been practicing with the team all along, it's nothing to PJ or to the team.

Or, it could show that he is an over-reactive, control freak who is more concerned with flexing his authority and ridding himself of a problem, than with helping a kid who obviously needs help and structure in his life.

He may well need to cut PJ loose...

Point is, we just don't know enough to say for certain what is appropriate discipline based on what little info is coming out of CH.

A good leader has more than one tool in the tool box, a hammer isn't ALWAYS what's needed.

I find myself in the odd position of being a Roy apologist. Not something I am use to doing or completely comfortable with. BUT, having been in situations where I had the responsibility to address poor behavior of a subordinate with punishment ranging from discharge/imprisonment to a relatively benign low mark on a performance evaluation, I am not going to second guess Roy on this one... he may gum it way up, or not, I just don't know enough to say what should happen.

[SilkyJ]

No I am not metaphysically certain that the NCAA and UNC are jointly investigating the rental car situation for P.J. Hairston. (I have no idea what "metaphysically certain" means, but I like the sound of it.)

Well if you aren't metaphysically certain, are you micropsychologically certain? Para/Orthophysically certain? 8 cinderblocks certain?

[sagegrouse]

Well if you aren't metaphysically certain, are you micropsychologically certain? Para/Orthophysically certain? 8 cinderblocks certain?

I dunno about those terms but I am certainly psychosomatically affected by anything Carolina.

sagegrouse

[sdotbarbee]

No I am not metaphysically certain that the NCAA and UNC are jointly investigating the rental car situation for P.J. Hairston. (I have no idea what "metaphysically certain" means, but I like the sound of it.) But, I ask you and others, why else is Roy waiting to impose punishment on P.J.? If the NCAA has closed the case or failed to open one, then Roy would go ahead and impose his penalties on P.J. -- eight games, four games, first-half of the first exhibition, or whatever.

Reflecting casually on other cases of "impermissible benefits," the NCAA would typically put a market value on the benefits and assess a suspension of a number of games -- or a whole -- season based on that value. But it's a discussion and negotiation with the school, with the UNC compliance and AD staff sharing its assessment with the NCAA and vice versa. From a negotiating perspective, Roy shouldn't impose a penalty until UNC hears from the NCAA because his penalty would be based on matters beyond the impermissible benefit, such as the speeding tickets and the pot. As a result, the NCAA would say its penalty should be additive to anything the coach comes up with.

sagegrouse

Well some of our friends over at PackPride have released some more twitter conversations that links Fats to a guy that works for Drew Rosenhaus. Greg Little is a client of Drew's and with the indictments coming down you would think some beans are going to get spilled. If it turns out Fats is a runner, which I have assumed all along, I don't see how PJ could ever play for unc again. FWIW PP also has a pic of Fats with Terrelle Pryor who is also a client of Rosenhaus.
mikejfats3.jpg

[moonpie23]

'Pack Pride Investigations, how can i help you?"

[JasonEvans]

A man who has been a tutor in the athletic department for 2+ decades has resigned in protest over PJ being allowed to stay on the team. His letter to the editor of the Daily Tar Heel is short, but quite effective.

Amazingly, the comment section is not full of haters... at least not yet. Perhaps we can continue to aid in supporting the folks who want UNC to come clean about their dreadful conduct over the past decade or so.

-Jason "I can't believe that there are not more angry comments to that article!" Evans

[oldnavy]

A man who has been a tutor in the athletic department for 2+ decades has resigned in protest over PJ being allowed to stay on the team. His letter to the editor of the Daily Tar Heel is short, but quite effective.

Amazingly, the comment section is not full of haters... at least not yet. Perhaps we can continue to aid in supporting the folks who want UNC to come clean about their dreadful conduct over the past decade or so.

-Jason "I can't believe that there are not more angry comments to that article!" Evans

I love the one comment that since the "charges were dropped" so there is no reason to suspend PJ. That line of reasoning just amazes me...