Coaching Comparisons: K v. Roy

[sagegrouse]

IIRC, Roy's two NCs came in years where they won the regular season but did not win the conference tournament. So, under the rules in place for a good part of Dean's years, they would not have made the NCAA Tournament.

OTOH, if winning were essential, Roy might have paid more attention to the ACC's -- like in playing Ty Lawson in the 2009 event.

sagegrouse

[jipops]

I am reminded of a story. Jim Valvano was the brand new coach at State. He was getting a haircut and talking hoops with the barber, who clearly thought Dean Smith was beyond compare. "Well," asked Jim, "what about Norm Sloan? He went 27-0 one year and won a national championship the next?" "Well," said the barber, "Just think what Dean Smith would have done with those teams."

In that regard, Ol' Roy has won two NC's in his ten years at UNC. Dean won two in 35 years.

sagegrouse

Good point, is this now morphing into Roy vs. Dean? I'm totally screwing up this thread. But in response: would Roy have those 2 national championships at UNC if Dean had never been there? Would he have 2 national titles at all?

If you had to choose between Roy and Dean (in his coaching years) to coach one big game to win it all, which would you choose? Between both UNC and Duke fan bases I think there would be an overwhelming choice. Which puts me back to the Dean vs. K argument.

[OldPhiKap]

OTOH, if winning were essential, Roy might have paid more attention to the ACC's -- like in playing Ty Lawson in the 2009 event.

sagegrouse

Serious question -- does Roy really mean that, or does he just say it because he gets pwned by K?

I am sure that the NCAA tournament is more important than the ACC tourney to both Roy and to K. The big difference is that K makes no bones about wanting to win everything, every time. I find it hard to believe that Roy ins't trying his best in the ACC Tourney, and given his background the ACC title has to mean something to him as well. Even if all he cares about is the NCAA, seeding considerations would dictate that you try to win. Plus there are the banners to hang, which is a big thing apparently over at the University of Non Compliance.

Put another way, if his coaching philosophy is truly that he doesn't care whether he wins the confernece tournmanent or not, that seems to me to be a poor choice.

WRT Lawson, I think K and Roy would both sit an injured player and let them get some healing rest. K kept Kyrie out through the first two games of the NCAA's (maybe three -- kind of runs together) even though Kyrie said he thought he was ready to go.

[OldPhiKap]

Good point, is this now morphing into Roy vs. Dean? I'm totally screwing up this thread. But in response: would Roy have those 2 national championships at UNC if Dean had never been there? Would he have 2 national titles at all?

If you had to choose between Roy and Dean (in his coaching years) to coach one big game to win it all, which would you choose? Between both UNC and Duke fan bases I think there would be an overwhelming choice. Which puts me back to the Dean vs. K argument.

Arguably, he would not have won his first title if it were not for Doh! recruiting Felton, Mays, and McCants.

[TexHawk]

Serious question -- does Roy really mean that, or does he just say it because he gets pwned by K?

I stopped following Roy's every word when he left for UNC, but he was banging the "cocktail party" and "I hate conference tournaments" line all the way back to the late 90s at KU.

[DukieInKansas]

When Roy took the head coaching job at KU, he had been an assistant coach under Dean Smith for 10 years. In contrast, Coach Krzyzewski was an assistant under Bobby Knight for just 1 year and then was a head coach at Army for 5 years. I think this gave an advantage to Roy as he was part of the Dean Smith coaching tree - giving him ties to UNC and to KU. I don't know how much of an advantage this truly gave him in the early years at KU over Coach K's early years at Duke, but I think it would be some.

Also, let me be the first (only?) on DBR to wish Coach Williams a happy birthday today. May he have a day free of PJ issues.

[TexHawk]

When Roy took the head coaching job at KU, he had been an assistant coach under Dean Smith for 10 years. In contrast, Coach Krzyzewski was an assistant under Bobby Knight for just 1 year and then was a head coach at Army for 5 years. I think this gave an advantage to Roy as he was part of the Dean Smith coaching tree - giving him ties to UNC and to KU. I don't know how much of an advantage this truly gave him in the early years at KU over Coach K's early years at Duke, but I think it would be some.

In Roy's first 3 years or so, he did EVERYTHING that Dean Smith's coaching style required. From same plays with the same names, all the way to the "standing up when a guy gets subbed" thing, same hand signals, etc. I'm sure there were also other things behind the scenes that we never saw. I wonder if that had something to do with that initial success. Like a ready-made box of coaching tips to apply to every situation. After a while, that doesn't fly anymore, you are on your own, sink or swim. Roy obviously succeeded, but it may explain why guys like Eddie Fogler, Buzz Peterson, and Doherty had some initial success, only to fall flat in the long run.

I don't know K's early history very well, but did Bob Knight have anything to do with his hiring at Duke? KU approached Deano to take over for Larry Brown, he offered up Roy instead. So, at least in that sense, Roy would not have had that first job at all without Dean.

[OldPhiKap]

In Roy's first 3 years or so, he did EVERYTHING that Dean Smith's coaching style required. From same plays with the same names, all the way to the "standing up when a guy gets subbed" thing, same hand signals, etc. I'm sure there were also other things behind the scenes that we never saw. I wonder if that had something to do with that initial success. Like a ready-made box of coaching tips to apply to every situation. After a while, that doesn't fly anymore, you are on your own, sink or swim. Roy obviously succeeded, but it may explain why guys like Eddie Fogler, Buzz Peterson, and Doherty had some initial success, only to fall flat in the long run.

I don't know K's early history very well, but did Bob Knight have anything to do with his hiring at Duke? KU approached Deano to take over for Larry Brown, he offered up Roy instead. So, at least in that sense, Roy would not have had that first job at all without Dean.

I believe that our AD Tom Butters called Knight to see if he was interested in the job, and Knight told him that Duke should hire K.

[flyingdutchdevil]

I believe that our AD Tom Butters called Knight to see if he was interested in the job, and Knight told him that Duke should hire K.

If I'm not mistaken, according to Gene Wojciechowski, Butters called Knight to ask who Knight would recommend. Knight gave the name of another coach. When Butters asked about Coach K, Knight said he's one of the best coaches out there.

Bob Knight works in mysterious ways.

[OldPhiKap]

If I'm not mistaken, according to Gene Wojciechowski, Butters called Knight to ask who Knight would recommend. Knight gave the name of another coach. When Butters asked about Coach K, Knight said he's one of the best coaches out there.

Bob Knight works in mysterious ways.

Had not heard it that way, but interesting. Could be.

Bobby Knight is an enigma, wrapped in a riddle, esconced in bacon. ymmm, bacon . . . .

[flyingdutchdevil]

Had not heard it that way, but interesting. Could be.

Bobby Knight is an enigma, wrapped in a riddle, esconced in bacon. ymmm, bacon . . . .

It's from Gene Wojo's latest book, "The Last Great Game".

[Wheat/"/"/"]

Far from elite players?

McDonald's All-Americans on that roster: Paige, Hairston, Bullock, McAdoo, Strickland.

That's elite talent, daggum it, including one--McAdoo--who bypassed the NBA Draft to return for another season.

Your PG was the top PG recruit in his class in the ESPN rankings.

Last year was one of Roy-Will's worst coaching efforts.

Yes, he's a very good coach, but his inability to adapt to the skillset of his players is also acknowledged in the college basketball community.

I'll argue that was elite potential you saw last season. It takes time with some players to become elite talent, no matter what some recruiting service says.

Roy surely has had some breaks that most coaches don't get. That's why he topped that stupid "most overrated" coach poll. It smacks of jealousy in my book.

But there are plenty of stories out there where people screw up great situations they've stepped into. He still works as hard as any coach at recruiting, and he does get quality players, the ones everybody else was after too. That's a big part of coaching, and he excels at it. Always has.

When people say he can't win without great players, they forget that no coach can. Players play and coaches coach. It's ridiculous to think less of him because he can get great players.

At the end of the day, his coaching stands on his record and how his players respect him and play for him. And I'd say that's been pretty impressive.

[OldPhiKap]

At the end of the day, his coaching stands on his record and how his players respect him and play for him. And I'd say that's been pretty impressive.

You had me until this.

Roy has had several teams just give up on him. PJ obviously does not respect Roy or PJ would have taken his warnings seriously.

[Wheat/"/"/"]

You had me until this.

Roy has had several teams just give up on him. PJ obviously does not respect Roy or PJ would have taken his warnings seriously.

PJ is PJ,...and one player. And I'm not convinced his respect or lack of respect of Roy has anything to do with his issues. I doubt his thinking ever got to that level...

What team gave up on Roy?

[OldPhiKap]

PJ is PJ,...and one player. And I'm not convinced his respect or lack of respect of Roy has anything to do with his issues. I doubt his thinking ever got to that level...

What team gave up on Roy?

2009-2010.

2010-11 until Roy finally woke up and benched LdII.

With Roy talking about how players didn't get it despite it being practice #42 or whatever -- is that a sign of respect?

And to be clear, I have been semi-defending Roy on this thread. Great recruiter, impressive results. Disagree with the qualities you highlight, though.

How have they shown respect for Roy?

[Wheat/"/"/"]

2009-2010.

2010-11 until Roy finally woke up and benched LdII.

With Roy talking about how players didn't get it despite it being practice #42 or whatever -- is that a sign of respect?

And to be clear, I have been semi-defending Roy on this thread. Great recruiter, impressive results. Disagree with the qualities you highlight, though.

How have they shown respect for Roy?

I don't think any team has ever "given up" on Roy. Never seen even a hint of anything like that.

Roy is not afraid to say what's on his mind, that's for sure. It's his way of motivating his team when he calls them out for not "getting it". Not "getting it" is not a show of disrespect from the players, just a show of players that need coaching.

It's pretty rare for a former player to say anything negative about Roy.

[OldPhiKap]

I don't think any team has ever "given up" on Roy. Never seen even a hint of anything like that.

Roy is not afraid to say what's on his mind, that's for sure. It's his way of motivating his team when he calls them out for not "getting it". Not "getting it" is not a show of disrespect from the players, just a show of players that need coaching.

It's pretty rare for a former player to say anything negative about Roy.

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/news/story?id=1905457

[Wheat/"/"/"]

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/news/story?id=1905457

Really? McCants is what you've got? LD II is next I'm sure. Those kids had issues that would have made Ghandi slap them.

I said criticism of Roy is rare, not non existent. If i wanted to hunt, i could find stuff where a player criticizes any coach.

Let's face it, coaches have to make decisions that don't please everyone.

[OldPhiKap]

Really? McCants is what you've got? LD II is next I'm sure. Those kids had issues that would have made Ghandi slap them.

I said criticism of Roy is rare, not non existent. If i wanted to hunt, i could find stuff where a player criticizes any coach.

Let's face it, coaches have to make decisions that don't please everyone.

Yeah, disregard the folks who dump on Roy and what do you have?

Roy is super, as long as you disregard those who played for him and think otherwise.

McCants didn't think UNC was jail because of a coach's decision. He played major minutes.

The players who spoke openly about the problems with the program while LDII started over an empirically better player did not crab because Roy was the respected ruler of the program. They openly squawked because Roy continued to play the worst pg option.

Again, I am not saying that Roy is not a very good coach. I am saying that respect from his players is not the hill I would die on if I were a Carolina fan. His players show him little respect in relation to similar coaches.

I ask again: when have players shown him respect?

[matt1]

I don't know that the 2010 team gave up on Roy as much as Roy gave up on the 2010 team. With all of those McDonald's All-Americans, there had to be some way he could adapt. If the players had given up on him, they would not have had their NIT run (while we were winning a different tournament).