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  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by Wander View Post
    At Kansas? No, not really.
    I don't want to derail the thread, but recruiting at KU is not as easy as the other bluebloods, and I don't think most would disagree. It's not *hard*, exactly, it's obviously easier than 300+ other D1 schools. But coaches are perpetually fighting the "stuck out there", "wizard of oz", "flat with nothing to do" stereotypes with the high-end talent. Bill Self, arguably one of the best recruiters in America, initially signed two fantastic classes, but since then has had multiple years w/o a single McDAA. (The 2013 class is obviously fantastic). And of the three McDAAs who came between 2008 and 2012, one did so because his dad was a legacy (Xavier Henry), and another came because he is from Wichita (Perry Ellis).

    Roy's first recruiting class at KU had verbal commitments from Adonis Jordan, Thomas Hill, and Harold Miner. The latter two jumped when probation came down. But that was back when Roy was "trying", as he later became famous for taking years off from recruiting. That was always the draw to UNC, that place *usually* recruits itself, so Roy could play lots of golf.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by DukeAlumBS View Post
    My friends the nice comments about Roy are not warranted here. Put it in another forum. The comments about Coach K being chippy are not appreciated by myself. Another forum and I will argue this point. Let me educate you some. Coach K is a West Pointer. That should suffice. He got his start from something I admire and respect. To become an Army officer from this avenue should help you in your understanding. The rearing is something not many of you can appreciate.
    Now what is going on with PJ, nice day my dear friends
    It's ironic that you're forcing me to defend Roy against every impulse in my body. The service academies are not the only repositories of disciplined, dedicated and hard-working professionals. I guarantee you, having seen first hand basketball coaches in practice, the film-room at 2 am, sleeping in their offices That even moderately successful college basketball coaches have those qualities in ample supply. I will assume that you also have a measure of respect for doctors, lawyers, Writers, actors and anyone else who has the ability to muster the effort it takes to be successful and rise to the top of their profession. Otherwise I will assume that your statement is biased, which you've admitted, and myopic in which case I'll get my education elsewhere thanks.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by TexHawk View Post
    I don't want to derail the thread, but recruiting at KU is not as easy as the other bluebloods, and I don't think most would disagree. It's not *hard*, exactly, it's obviously easier than 300+ other D1 schools. But coaches are perpetually fighting the "stuck out there", "wizard of oz", "flat with nothing to do" stereotypes with the high-end talent. Bill Self, arguably one of the best recruiters in America, initially signed two fantastic classes, but since then has had multiple years w/o a single McDAA. (The 2013 class is obviously fantastic). And of the three McDAAs who came between 2008 and 2012, one did so because his dad was a legacy (Xavier Henry), and another came because he is from Wichita (Perry Ellis).

    Roy's first recruiting class at KU had verbal commitments from Adonis Jordan, Thomas Hill, and Harold Miner. The latter two jumped when probation came down. But that was back when Roy was "trying", as he later became famous for taking years off from recruiting. That was always the draw to UNC, that place *usually* recruits itself, so Roy could play lots of golf.
    How is this different from Kentucky or Indiana? Or Duke or UNC for that matter? Lawrence has a population of 90,000, which is more than Bloomington (81,000) or Chapel Hill (58,000). And while Lexington is significantly larger (300,000), Lawrence is only a 40 minute drive to Kansas City, which is pretty massive (2.4 mil).

    From a geographic perspective, KU doesn't really have it that bad. However, the stigma of Kansas may be a slight negative, but I'm not sure that it's as strong as the stigma for a lot of other blue bloods (Duke being a school for white players, UNC's insane expectations of landing the next MJ, UI's poor recent history, etc).

    I really think it comes down to the coach. Self can recruit fairly well, but his ability to dominate throughout the season is the main draw for recruits.
    Criticism may not be agreeable, but it is necessary. It fulfils the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things. - Winston Churchill

    President of the "Nolan Smith Should Have His Jersey in The Rafters" Club

  4. #64
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    greater New Orleans area

    except

    Quote Originally Posted by CameronBlue View Post
    It's ironic that you're forcing me to defend Roy against every impulse in my body. The service academies are not the only repositories of disciplined, dedicated and hard-working professionals. I guarantee you, having seen first hand basketball coaches in practice, the film-room at 2 am, sleeping in their offices That even moderately successful college basketball coaches have those qualities in ample supply. I will assume that you also have a measure of respect for doctors, lawyers, Writers, actors and anyone else who has the ability to muster the effort it takes to be successful and rise to the top of their profession. Otherwise I will assume that your statement is biased, which you've admitted, and myopic in which case I'll get my education elsewhere thanks.
    you had me right up until you threw actors on your list...

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by flyingdutchdevil View Post
    How is this different from Kentucky or Indiana? Or Duke or UNC for that matter? Lawrence has a population of 90,000, which is more than Bloomington (81,000) or Chapel Hill (58,000). And while Lexington is significantly larger (300,000), Lawrence is only a 40 minute drive to Kansas City, which is pretty massive (2.4 mil).

    From a geographic perspective, KU doesn't really have it that bad. However, the stigma of Kansas may be a slight negative, but I'm not sure that it's as strong as the stigma for a lot of other blue bloods (Duke being a school for white players, UNC's insane expectations of landing the next MJ, UI's poor recent history, etc).

    I really think it comes down to the coach. Self can recruit fairly well, but his ability to dominate throughout the season is the main draw for recruits.
    It's IU if you are referring to Indiana University. I do feel that KU has the biggest hurdle to overcome amongst the blue bloods in terms of negative geography stigmas.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kfanarmy View Post
    you had me right up until you threw actors on your list...
    AEA requirement. (Though I'm no longer a member in good standing.).

  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by Wander View Post
    I don't think you're giving proper weight to the fact that Kansas won a national championship the year before Roy Williams started, and you're overrating the long term effect that probation has on powerhouse programs.
    In 2011, UConn won the national championship, its third national championship in the lifetime of current recruits (something Kansas in 1989 couldn't come close to saying). And yet, the imminent departure of its coach and the threat of probation hanging over Storrs seemed to have an effect. In the next two years, UConn successfully recruited zero (0) top 30 recruits and only two (2) top 100 recruits, combined.

    Also, I was talking about the short term effect of probation, not the long-term effect. Williams took a team that'd lost its coach and its top players and was going on probation and a year later won 30 games and the next year won 27 and made the Final Four. That's way better than K did early in his Duke career and could not have been accomplished without Roy being both a really good recruiter and a pretty good coach.

    That's all I'm saying.

  8. #68
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    Glad this discussion was moved to its own thread, thanks to the mod(s) that went to the effort to cull these all out.

    I think the biggest difference between the two is that Roy was voted most overrated by his own peers. K, by contrast, is recognized by his peers as an outstanding coach. That has to count for something.

    Roy did a wonderful job at Kansas and as good a job in Dean's shadow as one could at UNC. He is a good recruiter, and runs a system that as extremely effective if it has the personnel. His hoarding of time outs and his rotations (pulling the hot shooter) baffle me.

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by Kedsy View Post
    In 2011, UConn won the national championship, its third national championship in the lifetime of current recruits (something Kansas in 1989 couldn't come close to saying). And yet, the imminent departure of its coach and the threat of probation hanging over Storrs seemed to have an effect. In the next two years, UConn successfully recruited zero (0) top 30 recruits and only two (2) top 100 recruits, combined.
    Not sure if the comparison is apt. In 1989, it was common for guys to play four years. Even superstars (MJ) often played three. Now in the age of 1 'n done, it wouldn't make sense to go to a school on probation if that were the only year you planned to be in school.



    Quote Originally Posted by Kedsy View Post
    Also, I was talking about the short term effect of probation, not the long-term effect. Williams took a team that'd lost its coach and its top players and was going on probation and a year later won 30 games and the next year won 27 and made the Final Four. That's way better than K did early in his Duke career and could not have been accomplished without Roy being both a really good recruiter and a pretty good coach.

    That's all I'm saying.
    While the loss of Manning was huge, I don't think you can say Kansas lost its top players. The other top scorers were both back and Newton led the team in scoring for Roy's first year as I recall. Plus--and it's a big plus--Mark Randall was returning from his medical redshirt year. Randall was a terrific player and one K recruited hard. Believe JUCO West also arrived that year.

    This is not to denigrate Roy's coaching. I do believe he got great opportunities at well-established programs and took advantage of it.

  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by dball View Post
    Not sure if the comparison is apt. In 1989, it was common for guys to play four years. Even superstars (MJ) often played three. Now in the age of 1 'n done, it wouldn't make sense to go to a school on probation if that were the only year you planned to be in school.
    If recruits in the 31-100 range are thinking one-and-done (and so wouldn't go to a team on probation), someone needs to sit them down and tell them how few people actually make that jump each year.

  11. #71
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    Colorado
    Thanks for the context. I watched Mark Randall play when he was in high school. I see him occasionally at one of the Denver 24 Hour Fitness centers. I've never talked to him but, now, I think I'll ask him why the heck he didn't go to Duke.




    While the loss of Manning was huge, I don't think you can say Kansas lost its top players. The other top scorers were both back and Newton led the team in scoring for Roy's first year as I recall. Plus--and it's a big plus--Mark Randall was returning from his medical redshirt year. Randall was a terrific player and one K recruited hard. Believe JUCO West also arrived that year.

    This is not to denigrate Roy's coaching. I do believe he got great opportunities at well-established programs and took advantage of it.[/QUOTE]

  12. #72

    Coach K again

    Quote Originally Posted by CameronBlue View Post
    It's ironic that you're forcing me to defend Roy against every impulse in my body. The service academies are not the only repositories of disciplined, dedicated and hard-working professionals. I guarantee you, having seen first hand basketball coaches in practice, the film-room at 2 am, sleeping in their offices That even moderately successful college basketball coaches have those qualities in ample supply. I will assume that you also have a measure of respect for doctors, lawyers, Writers, actors and anyone else who has the ability to muster the effort it takes to be successful and rise to the top of their profession. Otherwise I will assume that your statement is biased, which you've admitted, and myopic in which case I'll get my education elsewhere thanks.
    CameronBlue, Let me educate you once more. What you said above is wrong. The service academies especially West Point give us much more. Each has their own traits and request of each student. West Point and the Army it is Honor, Courage and Integrity. The most important building block out of West Point is LEADERSHIP! This is why this leader coaches the Olympics. This is why he talks to corporations about winning and leadership. Coach K again is a winner and LEADER. You do not get this anywhere else. It is known in military circles what comes out of West Point. Leaders. Nice day my friends, Jimmy

  13. #73
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    Carolina Beach

    Top Players Lost

    Duke lost G-Man who was pretty darn good.

  14. #74
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    Columbus, Ohio
    Quote Originally Posted by Wheat/"/"/" View Post
    Recent history, (or Roy's entire history for that matter), just doesn't back you up on that.

    He took last years team to a very respectable 25-11 record with far from "elite" players. They were good, but not elite.

    ... And he didn't have a speedy all world pg that some seem to think he has to have. He started a freshman that needed time to grow.

    He's a very good coach and has earned his respect in the college basketball community.
    Far from elite players?

    McDonald's All-Americans on that roster: Paige, Hairston, Bullock, McAdoo, Strickland.

    That's elite talent, daggum it, including one--McAdoo--who bypassed the NBA Draft to return for another season.

    Your PG was the top PG recruit in his class in the ESPN rankings.

    Last year was one of Roy-Will's worst coaching efforts.

    Yes, he's a very good coach, but his inability to adapt to the skillset of his players is also acknowledged in the college basketball community.

  15. #75
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    The K vs. Dean comparison seems like a better argument than this one. While Roy is an excellent coach it seems universal among long time UNC fans I've talked with that Dean was superior in every facet to Roy. Again, I do have a level of respect for him as a coach, but I think we're downgrading K a little by comparing him with Roy.

    Sure Roy took over at UNC when the program had hit a rough patch. But the UNC brand was there and it was created by Dean. Just as K has molded the powerhouse brand that is Duke, regardless of the successes of Bubas and Foster before him.
    "Just be you. You is Enough."

  16. #76

    down grading K

    Quote Originally Posted by jipops View Post
    The K vs. Dean comparison seems like a better argument than this one. While Roy is an excellent coach it seems universal among long time UNC fans I've talked with that Dean was superior in every facet to Roy. Again, I do have a level of respect for him as a coach, but I think we're downgrading K a little by comparing him with Roy.

    Sure Roy took over at UNC when the program had hit a rough patch. But the UNC brand was there and it was created by Dean. Just as K has molded the powerhouse brand that is Duke, regardless of the successes of Bubas and Foster before him.
    Thank you for this. I felt that when in the other forum when I saw K and Roy compared to each other. Roy was ranked by his peers as the most overrated coach and also inadequate. FUI we have a unique thing in Coach K. And that is why we have what we have. His education at West Point set the groundwork. Coach K speaks to top corporations on winning and leadership. He speaks at our law school the very same. He speaks at the Terry Sanford school of public policy on winning and leadership. Again top corporations on winning and leadership. There has never been a coach such as this ever. And not one who was a West Pointer! My honest feeling is that Coach K is what all other coaches wish to be like and to have accomplished what he did. He set the STANDARD! Nice day my friends, Jimmy

  17. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by DukeAlumBS View Post
    Thank you for this. I felt that when in the other forum when I saw K and Roy compared to each other. Roy was ranked by his peers as the most overrated coach and also inadequate. FUI we have a unique thing in Coach K. And that is why we have what we have. His education at West Point set the groundwork. Coach K speaks to top corporations on winning and leadership. He speaks at our law school the very same. He speaks at the Terry Sanford school of public policy on winning and leadership. Again top corporations on winning and leadership. There has never been a coach such as this ever. And not one who was a West Pointer! My honest feeling is that Coach K is what all other coaches wish to be like and to have accomplished what he did. He set the STANDARD! Nice day my friends, Jimmy
    This wasn't really about K vs Roy from a coaching standpoint. This was K vs Roy as in who had it easier when they first started coaching, from a recruiting standpoint.

  18. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by jipops View Post
    The K vs. Dean comparison seems like a better argument than this one. While Roy is an excellent coach it seems universal among long time UNC fans I've talked with that Dean was superior in every facet to Roy. Again, I do have a level of respect for him as a coach, but I think we're downgrading K a little by comparing him with Roy.
    I am reminded of a story. Jim Valvano was the brand new coach at State. He was getting a haircut and talking hoops with the barber, who clearly thought Dean Smith was beyond compare. "Well," asked Jim, "what about Norm Sloan? He went 27-0 one year and won a national championship the next?" "Well," said the barber, "Just think what Dean Smith would have done with those teams."

    In that regard, Ol' Roy has won two NC's in his ten years at UNC. Dean won two in 35 years.

    sagegrouse

  19. #79
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    Feb 2007
    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Corey View Post
    Far from elite players?

    McDonald's All-Americans on that roster: Paige, Hairston, Bullock, McAdoo, Strickland.

    That's elite talent, daggum it, including one--McAdoo--who bypassed the NBA Draft to return for another season.

    Your PG was the top PG recruit in his class in the ESPN rankings.

    Last year was one of Roy-Will's worst coaching efforts.

    Yes, he's a very good coach, but his inability to adapt to the skillset of his players is also acknowledged in the college basketball community.
    Still, let's be fair to Williams - Paige, Strickland and McAdoo may have been McDonald's All-Americans, but they have not to this point proven to be good basketball players. Some of that is on the coach that recruited and developed them (or failed to develop them), but most of the blame should fall on the talent evaluators, who just whiffed.

  20. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by sagegrouse View Post
    I am reminded of a story. Jim Valvano was the brand new coach at State. He was getting a haircut and talking hoops with the barber, who clearly thought Dean Smith was beyond compare. "Well," asked Jim, "what about Norm Sloan? He went 27-0 one year and won a national championship the next?" "Well," said the barber, "Just think what Dean Smith would have done with those teams."

    In that regard, Ol' Roy has won two NC's in his ten years at UNC. Dean won two in 35 years.

    sagegrouse
    IIRC, Roy's two NCs came in years where they won the regular season but did not win the conference tournament. So, under the rules in place for a good part of Dean's years, they would not have made the NCAA Tournament.

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