Coaching Comparisons: K v. Roy

[arnie]

It's a funny thing...all coaches seem to be a whole lot better when they have talented players.

Yes, Roy and the talented 2010 team advanced far into the NIT.

[Wheat/"/"/"]

Ok...raise you one Lehigh.

[Duvall]

Ok...raise you one Lehigh.

We're having a conversation about the coaching ability of Roy Williams, and you think bringing up the topic of NCAA upsets will *help* your case?

[arnie]

Ok...raise you one Lehigh.

Good try, but K didn't go 5-11 in conference with 7 McD studs- yes the UNC site shows 7 - McDonalds all Americans on that roster. No decent coach takes that talent and fails miserably.

[Wheat/"/"/"]

I was just funnin ya with the Lehigh reminder...you can't convince me or the hall of fame guys that ol' Roy's not a good coach so let's just move along, shall we?

[dball]

Similarly, at UNC, one could say that Deano's success was based on Frank McGuire's, but that Roy Williams's success was not based on Deano's. There were two coaches in the interim, one of whom got fired for screwing up the system. That was a 6-year interregnum. I don't really see how Williams benefited from Deano's success. Roy was handed a bagful of smelly fish and had to start over. But... if your point is that UNC still had a college basketball brand to build on, Williams was in far better shape than Brown was when he took over at KU.

Gut had the heels in the Final Four twice during his 3 year stint so it's not as if they had disappeared. I believe Dean gets some credit with Roy in that he recruited him for the job and Roy was an assistant for 11 years or so. While Doh was a mess, his excellent recruiting class in 2002 was the basis of Roy's first championship team. Roy can also thank assistant Doh's superior recruiting skills for Pierce, Gooden and Hinrich at Kansas.

K's inherited really good players for his first year were upperclassmen so he had a much leaner "cupboard". Plus, I believe that the poster was referencing the brand and you only need to say "Michael Jordan" to show how strong the UNC brand was (and still is). Despite Doh's relative failures (his two winning seasons, 1 in NCAA and 1 in NIT would have kept him employed at quite a number of schools) UNC was not a tough sell and most thought they just needed the "right" family member at the helm.

But how different was K's situation in 1980 when he first arrived? Well, Duke was a pretty good brand. In 1978, Bill Foster's Duke team was in the national title game. The main highlights previously were during the 10-year Vic Bubas regime, where the team had gone to the final four three times: the national title game once and finished third the other two times. He'd also been in one regional championship game. Not chopped liver for basketball branding. In fact, when Foster took over, Duke was one of only eight schools with over 1000 victories.

Foster took the reins after a one-year hiatus under Neill McGeachy. No such hiatus for Krzyzewski who took it straight from Foster, though he had left the cupboard partially bare, leaving K no time to recruit.

While Duke was one of eight with a thousand, both Kansas and UNC had considerably more wins; both were--at the time of Roy's hire-- and are top 3 all time. Actually, I believe as luck would have it, both schools may have been number two when Roy arrived.

One year hiatus? Bucky Waters says hi. Before '78, the last Duke Final Four appearance was 1966 (when Verga's illness probably cost the Devils the title).

Duke was two years out of the Final Four but UNC was just three. Foster's last year, Duke tied for 6th in an eight team conference, granted with a 7-7 record.

Still, upon their hire, which of these three had the worst branding problem and which had the branding issue working the best? but Brown after Phog's 27-year absence? Williams following UNC 's 6-year lack of attendance? Or the Duke situation where K arrived behind two successful spells not far apart?

Frankly, I'd say that K's situation may actually have been the best of the three. I'm not for a minute suggesting it wasn't a difficult position. It was. But Kansas really wasn't on the national radar before Brown arrived except for Wilt's years and UNC had been handed a leg up by McGuire. So the McGuire-Smith era had a 45 year foundation for its brand before the 6 year break to disaster mainly caused by Doherty. That 45 year foundation had cemented the UNC brand. It would be a hard one to break from a recruiting standpoint

Kansas not on national radar? What basketball fan hasn't heard of Naismith or one of the winningest programs of all time? Kansas and Kentucky were trading places for most wins all time. In the early 70s, they were in the Final Four a couple of times. This was not that long before Brown's arrival.

I'm still not sure how Brown was even added to this. He was a good coach winning 75% of his games at Kansas. Of course, the guy he replaced had won 73%. You make it sound as if Kansas was floundering during the years between Phog Allen's retirement and Brown's arrival. They weren't.

Williams didn't arrive after a 6 year anything. Carolina was two years out of the NCAA, three years out of the Final Four.

I believe Roy was given good opportunities at well-established basketball powers and made the most of it. But to characterize it as a harder hill to climb than K is just off base in my opinion.

[OldPhiKap]

I dunno if this sort of distinction really flies historically. Phog Allen stopped coaching in 1956. Larry Brown didn't show up until 1983. That interlude covered the KU coaching of Dick Harp and Ted Owens, 27 years of good, but not great coaches. Allen's success was not any basis for Brown's success.

Similarly, at UNC, one could say that Deano's success was based on Frank McGuire's, but that Roy Williams's success was not based on Deano's. There were two coaches in the interim, one of whom got fired for screwing up the system. That was a 6-year interregnum. I don't really see how Williams benefited from Deano's success. Roy was handed a bagful of smelly fish and had to start over. But... if your point is that UNC still had a college basketball brand to build on, Williams was in far better shape than Brown was when he took over at KU.

But how different was K's situation in 1980 when he first arrived? Well, Duke was a pretty good brand. In 1978, Bill Foster's Duke team was in the national title game. The main highlights previously were during the 10-year Vic Bubas regime, where the team had gone to the final four three times: the national title game once and finished third the other two times. He'd also been in one regional championship game. Not chopped liver for basketball branding. In fact, when Foster took over, Duke was one of only eight schools with over 1000 victories.

Foster took the reins after a one-year hiatus under Neill McGeachy. No such hiatus for Krzyzewski who took it straight from Foster, though he had left the cupboard partially bare, leaving K no time to recruit.

Still, upon their hire, which of these three had the worst branding problem and which had the branding issue working the best? Brown after Phog's 27-year absence? Williams following UNC 's 6-year lack of attendance? Or the Duke situation where K arrived behind two successful spells not far apart?

Frankly, I'd say that K's situation may actually have been the best of the three. I'm not for a minute suggesting it wasn't a difficult position. It was. But Kansas really wasn't on the national radar before Brown arrived except for Wilt's years and UNC had been handed a leg up by McGuire. So the McGuire-Smith era had a 45 year foundation for its brand before the 6 year break to disaster mainly caused by Doherty. That 45 year foundation had cemented the UNC brand. It would be a hard one to break from a recruiting standpoint

Duke's brand was certainly solid. But of the three, did K have the worst history to overcome? I don't think so even though K himself was an unknown. I'd conclude that of the three, Brown had the hardest row to hoe. Twenty-seven years of mediocrity easily wipes out all excellence that has gone before. I do think it's a close call whether K's situation in 1980 was better than Williams's in 2003. At least K didn't have to deal with a fouled pool even if he had been handicapped by timing. Still, that 45 year foundation kept Williams afloat. Duke's brand in 1980 was excellent despite his personal anonymity. Remember his second recruiting class: Johnny Dawkins, Mark Alarie, David Henderson, Jay Bilas and Weldon Williams. That class speaks for itself. Duke's brand was better than just good. So I think historically K's initial position upon hire was the easiest of the three. Not that any of the three had it easy, of course, just relatively speaking.

All true, but let me add one wrinkle.

In K's early years, Dean was the master of the conference. Lefty was a legend. Terry Holland owned Food Lion. (Okay, I might have that one wrong). Valvano was the young guy with a NC. Bobby C. was the best recruiter in the conference.

Duke was a good brand, but not sure there was a tougher place for a young guy with an unpronounceable last name from a service school to survive.

Not sure Roy or Dean had such competition within conference.

[FerryFor50]

Gut had the heels in the Final Four twice during his 3 year stint so it's not as if they had disappeared. I believe Dean gets some credit with Roy in that he recruited him for the job and Roy was an assistant for 11 years or so. While Doh was a mess, his excellent recruiting class in 2002 was the basis of Roy's first championship team. Roy can also thank assistant Doh's superior recruiting skills for Pierce, Gooden and Hinrich at Kansas.

K's inherited really good players for his first year were upperclassmen so he had a much leaner "cupboard". Plus, I believe that the poster was referencing the brand and you only need to say "Michael Jordan" to show how strong the UNC brand was (and still is). Despite Doh's relative failures (his two winning seasons, 1 in NCAA and 1 in NIT would have kept him employed at quite a number of schools) UNC was not a tough sell and most thought they just needed the "right" family member at the helm.



While Duke was one of eight with a thousand, both Kansas and UNC had considerably more wins; both were--at the time of Roy's hire-- and are top 3 all time. Actually, I believe as luck would have it, both schools may have been number two when Roy arrived.

One year hiatus? Bucky Waters says hi. Before '78, the last Duke Final Four appearance was 1966 (when Verga's illness probably cost the Devils the title).

Duke was two years out of the Final Four but UNC was just three. Foster's last year, Duke tied for 6th in an eight team conference, granted with a 7-7 record.



Kansas not on national radar? What basketball fan hasn't heard of Naismith or one of the winningest programs of all time? Kansas and Kentucky were trading places for most wins all time. In the early 70s, they were in the Final Four a couple of times. This was not that long before Brown's arrival.

I'm still not sure how Brown was even added to this. He was a good coach winning 75% of his games at Kansas. Of course, the guy he replaced had won 73%. You make it sound as if Kansas was floundering during the years between Phog Allen's retirement and Brown's arrival. They weren't.

Williams didn't arrive after a 6 year anything. Carolina was two years out of the NCAA, three years out of the Final Four.

I believe Roy was given good opportunities at well-established basketball powers and made the most of it. But to characterize it as a harder hill to climb than K is just off base in my opinion.

A lot of good knowledge on this thread!

Mods, can we branch this out into another thread discussing Roy Williams coaching acumen and whether or not his recruiting was more about circumstance?

[CDu]

I was just funnin ya with the Lehigh reminder...you can't convince me or the hall of fame guys that ol' Roy's not a good coach so let's just move along, shall we?

Note as well that Lehigh had arguably the best player on the floor in that game in CJ McCollum (Rivers had better pedigree and hype, but McCollum was probably more developed at that point). While the result was certainly an upset, it was not nearly the upset many would like to suggest.

I do agree that Williams is a good coach. Probably overrated by some, underrated by others. Not as good a coach as Coach K, but that's not exactly an exclusive club. He's still done quite well for himself, his inability to keep his foot out of his mouth notwithstanding.

[moonpie23]

ok, wheat....your entire family fortune and assets are bet on one game of completely unknown but respectable players vs. another team of unknown but equally talented players...the coach will get 1 month to prepare the team...

you lose, you're broke forever....you win and life is good...


roy or k?

[ForkFondler]

ok, wheat....your entire family fortune and assets are bet on one game of completely unknown but respectable players vs. another team of unknown but equally talented players...the coach will get 1 month to prepare the team...

you lose, you're broke forever....you win and life is good...


roy or k?

To be fair... random draw.

[BD80]

ok, wheat....your entire family fortune and assets are bet on one game of completely unknown but respectable players vs. another team of unknown but equally talented players...the coach will get 1 month to prepare the team...

you lose, you're broke forever....you win and life is good...


roy or k?

I would guess it is not enjoyable for Wheat to take on the entire DBR community mano a mano. He is a Carolina fan, but he is a reasonable guy with an interesting perspective that understandably differs from most of us.

How about we quit poking him?

[Wheat/"/"/"]

ok, wheat....your entire family fortune and assets are bet on one game of completely unknown but respectable players vs. another team of unknown but equally talented players...the coach will get 1 month to prepare the team...

you lose, you're broke forever....you win and life is good...


roy or k?

Not enough info...so it depends...

Is there a real post player on my roster?

I can handle these odds, BD80, but thanks for the kind thought

[moonpie23]

based on the info that you have....no more, no less...

[arnie]

based on the info that you have....no more, no less...

I think he really wants to know if Roy's players drive their own cars.

[OldPhiKap]

I think he really wants to know if Roy's players drive their own cars.

"Baby, you can drive my car.
Yes, you're gonna be a star.
Baby, you can drive my car,
'Cause baby you're PJ..."

[Jim3k]

Not enough info...so it depends...

Is there a real post player on my roster?

I can handle these odds, BD80, but thanks for the kind thought

You know I don't rag you Wheat, but I'd give you the G-Man as your post. Whattya think?

[Wander]

This is not entirely accurate. Duke was a national powerhouse in the '60s with Vic Bubas, made the championship game under Bill Foster in 1978 and the Elite Eight in 1980, the year before K came on board.

Kansas hadn't been a powerhouse since the '50s until Larry Brown came on board. Brown made the Final Four a couple times (including a championship) but left the program on probation when Williams took the job.

Frankly, K's situation when he got to Duke and Roy's situation when he got to Kansas seem pretty similar to me. If anything, Roy had it a little worse since he was on probation.

I dunno if this sort of distinction really flies historically. Phog Allen stopped coaching in 1956. Larry Brown didn't show up until 1983. That interlude covered the KU coaching of Dick Harp and Ted Owens, 27 years of good, but not great coaches. Allen's success was not any basis for Brown's success.

Similarly, at UNC, one could say that Deano's success was based on Frank McGuire's, but that Roy Williams's success was not based on Deano's. There were two coaches in the interim, one of whom got fired for screwing up the system. That was a 6-year interregnum. I don't really see how Williams benefited from Deano's success. Roy was handed a bagful of smelly fish and had to start over. But... if your point is that UNC still had a college basketball brand to build on, Williams was in far better shape than Brown was when he took over at KU.

I think you guys are making this a little too complicated. Kansas had 2 national championships and 8 Final Fours before Roy. UNC had 3 national championships and 15 Final Fours before Roy. Duke had 0 national championships and 4 Final Fours before K.

Don't get me wrong, Duke was a good program before Coach K. He didn't build it from nothing. Our pre-K program is probably underrated by most people, but it's also probably a little overrated by some people here. Duke was definitely behind UNC and Kansas. And that's the biggest knack on Roy in coaching circles - that he's gotten to spend his entire career at historical powerhouses.

[Wheat/"/"/"]

You know I don't rag you Wheat, but I'd give you the G-Man as your post. Whattya think?

Give me him and I'll coach that team and they'll play tough. I always thought he was a great player.

...can I have Tinker Bell too?

[dpslaw]

Give me him and I'll coach that team and they'll play tough. I always thought he was a great player.

...can I have Tinker Bell too?

Only if you take Makhtar.