Toughest region

[Kedsy]

...Big 10 champ Wisconsin posing problems, etc.

Well, the biggest problem posed by "Big 10 champ Wisconsin" is how'd they sneak into the locker room and steal the trophy from Ohio State?

[gofurman]

so if duke is number 6 WHY are we in the bracket with Louisville? Based on s curve should we be vs Indiana? I thought once they declared this list it was a simple S curve???

http://www.cbssports.com/collegebask...-168-seed-list
help here?
"1.Louisville
2.Kansas
3.Indiana
4.Gonzaga

5.Miami (FL)
6.Duke
7.Georgetown
8.Ohio State

9.New Mexico
10.Florida
11.Michigan St.
12.Marquette

13.Michigan
14.Kansas St.
15.Saint Louis
16.Syracuse
17.Oklahoma St.
18.UNLV
19.Wisconsin
20.VCU

[6th Man]

so if duke is number 6 WHY are we in the bracket with Louisville? Based on s curve should we be vs Indiana? I thought once they declared this list it was a simple S curve???

http://www.cbssports.com/collegebask...-168-seed-list
help here?
"1.Louisville
2.Kansas
3.Indiana
4.Gonzaga

5.Miami (FL)
6.Duke
7.Georgetown
8.Ohio State

9.New Mexico
10.Florida
11.Michigan St.
12.Marquette

13.Michigan
14.Kansas St.
15.Saint Louis
16.Syracuse
17.Oklahoma St.
18.UNLV
19.Wisconsin
20.VCU

The s curve no longer applies. It's based on geography now.

[El_Diablo]

so if duke is number 6 WHY are we in the bracket with Louisville? Based on s curve should we be vs Indiana? I thought once they declared this list it was a simple S curve???

It's not a simple s-curve. This has been discussed a number of times: geography is the primary factor in filling the top four seeds of each region. So as the second highest 2 seed, we got placed into our second closest region (after the closest one, DC, was already taken by Miami).

[uh_no]

so if duke is number 6 WHY are we in the bracket with Louisville? Based on s curve should we be vs Indiana? I thought once they declared this list it was a simple S curve???

http://www.cbssports.com/collegebask...-168-seed-list
help here?
"1.Louisville
2.Kansas
3.Indiana
4.Gonzaga

5.Miami (FL)
6.Duke
7.Georgetown
8.Ohio State

9.New Mexico
10.Florida
11.Michigan St.
12.Marquette

13.Michigan
14.Kansas St.
15.Saint Louis
16.Syracuse
17.Oklahoma St.
18.UNLV
19.Wisconsin
20.VCU

nope...

first, seeds 1 and 2 are based 100% on location...

3 and 4 seeds are based some combination of location, and balancing the weight of the 1 and 2 seeds

then after that it's S curve and then they modify it however they need to (within 1 seed line) to follow all the bracketing rules

[SCMatt33]

The only limiting factor is that the sum of the 1-4 seeds in each region must be within a certain amount of each other (I forget exactly how much, but it's pretty lenient). Here's how the regions stack out.

Midwest: 33 (1,6,11,15)
South: 32 (2,7,10,13)
East: 36 (3, 5, 12, 16)
West: 35 (4, 8, 9, 14)

So the committee looks at that and says that the difference between best and worst is only 4 overall seeds. The big disparity comes from disagreements with the committee. For example, most would not consider New Mexico the strongest 3 seed.

[Dr. Rosenrosen]

I'm the furthest thing from a statistician. But help me understand... if you're going to calculate and rate the toughness of regions based purely on the numbers, and the Midwest region keeps popping as the toughest, isn't that precisely because we are such a high performing #2 seed (RPI, BPI, etc.)? So, it would be fine to use this mathematical approach as a means to compare the relative strength of the regions against one another. But, folks, we can't play against ourselves (unless you want to get all psychological about it). So, continuing to say we are playing in the toughest region isn't really accurate from our perspective because we are in fact one of the primary reasons it is so difficult.

[sporthenry]

The only limiting factor is that the sum of the 1-4 seeds in each region must be within a certain amount of each other (I forget exactly how much, but it's pretty lenient). Here's how the regions stack out.

Midwest: 33 (1,6,11,15)
South: 32 (2,7,10,13)
East: 36 (3, 5, 12, 16)
West: 35 (4, 8, 9, 14)

So the committee looks at that and says that the difference between best and worst is only 4 overall seeds. The big disparity comes from disagreements with the committee. For example, most would not consider New Mexico the strongest 3 seed.

Yes, this is correct. They are told to keep it within 5 points. But the fact that New Mexico is above Florida and MSU is one of the more ludicrous things that I saw. I don't really care to look up the numbers like top 25 wins but that certainly made it easier to balance the brackets but I sort of figured that Arizona or New Mexico would jump up and be the top 3 or 4 seed to make it easier.

But I also don't like the talk that the S-curve isn't used anymore b/c it most certainly is. They just don't put #1 v #8 overall. But the s-curve is the reason that Miami is in the East and Duke isn't.

[uh_no]

Yes, this is correct. They are told to keep it within 5 points. But the fact that New Mexico is above Florida and MSU is one of the more ludicrous things that I saw. I don't really care to look up the numbers like top 25 wins but that certainly made it easier to balance the brackets but I sort of figured that Arizona or New Mexico would jump up and be the top 3 or 4 seed to make it easier.

But I also don't like the talk that the S-curve isn't used anymore b/c it most certainly is. They just don't put #1 v #8 overall. But the s-curve is the reason that Miami is in the East and Duke isn't.

I think you misunderstand the meaning of S-curve....s curve is not simply a list of teams...s-curve is how you would ideally slot them into regios

rank:region
1 1
2 2
3 3
4 4
5 4
6 3
7 2
8 1
9 1
...

much like fantasy football draft...it's called an "S" curve because the regions go back and forth like an S

in that sense, it is most certainly not followed for the first 4 seeds...and that doesn't mean that the actual ranking of the teams is ignored...

the ranking is what you would use to build the S curve, but the teams are not slotted in in S curve order, if that makes sense...they are slotted by region...if they were slotted by S curve, the overall 1 would always be paired with the overall 8 as it's 2 seed

[El_Diablo]

But I also don't like the talk that the S-curve isn't used anymore b/c it most certainly is. They just don't put #1 v #8 overall. But the s-curve is the reason that Miami is in the East and Duke isn't.

Miami is in the East because they were ranked higher than the other #2 seeds (and thus got geographical preference over Duke). There is no s-curve. It's a seed list, and the committee uses it to fill the regions in descending order along each seed line for the top sixteen teams (subject to various guiding principles).

[sporthenry]

I think you misunderstand the meaning of S-curve....s curve is not simply a list of teams...s-curve is how you would ideally slot them into regios

rank:region
1 1
2 2
3 3
4 4
5 4
6 3
7 2
8 1
9 1
...

much like fantasy football draft...it's called an "S" curve because the regions go back and forth like an S

in that sense, it is most certainly not followed for the first 4 seeds...and that doesn't mean that the actual ranking of the teams is ignored...

the ranking is what you would use to build the S curve, but the teams are not slotted in in S curve order, if that makes sense...they are slotted by region...if they were slotted by S curve, the overall 1 would always be paired with the overall 8 as it's 2 seed

I guess I misunderstood the implications of S curve. But then I'll just call it the Seed List. But it is still just a matter of semantics. I guess I have a convoluted mind but in my mind, it is the exact same thing except instead of putting preference on an easier opponent, they put it on location first.

[nmduke2001]

Since we were 6 in the final 68 behind Miami, would we have been in the same predicament had we made it to the ACC Tourney final and lost to Miami?

[El_Diablo]

Since we were 6 in the final 68 behind Miami, would we have been in the same predicament had we made it to the ACC Tourney final and lost to Miami?

It's all speculation, of course, but I believe our ignominious exit from the ACC Tournament dropped us down a few pegs from where we would have been had we beaten Maryland and UNC this weekend. So no, I think we would have been a clear #1 seed had we advanced to the ACC finals.

[throatybeard]

It's all speculation, of course, but I believe our ignominious exit from the ACC Tournament dropped us down a few pegs from where we would have been had we beaten Maryland and UNC this weekend. So no, I think we would have been a clear #1 seed had we advanced to the ACC finals.

Yes. This is another thing about deep in your conference tournament--it means you had two more quality wins. This is one of the things the DUke haters don't seem to get--we rarely flame out in the ACCT early. So you get another couple good wins under your belt.

[uh_no]

I guess I misunderstood the implications of S curve. But then I'll just call it the Seed List. But it is still just a matter of semantics. I guess I have a convoluted mind but in my mind, it is the exact same thing except instead of putting preference on an easier opponent, they put it on location first.

yeah, you have the concept...it's convoluted by the fact that the "seed list" is called the "s curve"...it's really a misnomer that just confuses everyone

so yeah, you're right, they go down the seed list, and for the first 8 they slot exclusively by geographic preference, then next 8 are geography and balancing the regions, and after that it's easiest opponent all the way down the list (except if it would break rules...but usually enough rules are broken that the final bracket looks nothing like the easiest opponent order anyway...so it is pretty much just a free for all of how you can slot the teams into the bracket so they're somewhat close to the right spot on the seed list)

[hurleyfor3]

There is no S curve. There never was an S curve. Nothing about the ncaa tournament selection process involves any kind of curve or the letter S, other than the S-like figure that has a vertical line through it.

You know the Sanskrit "om"? They take the field and arrange it over that, then do a Laplace transform over the euro symbol from 0 to 2π. Then they take the three teams Jay Bilas thinks are most deserving of their seeds and switch them with the three teams Seth Davis thinks got jobbed. Then they keep switching teams until at least two of their "guidelines" are flagrantly violated, then they give the bracket to cbs.

I mean, when you look at how the Pac 12 teams were placed, how do you conclude they use any other method?

[throatybeard]

There is no S curve. There never was an S curve. Nothing about the ncaa tournament selection process involves any kind of curve or the letter S, other than the S-like figure that has a vertical line through it.

You know the Sanskrit "om"? They take the field and arrange it over that, then do a Laplace transform over the euro symbol from 0 to 2π. Then they take the three teams Jay Bilas thinks are most deserving of their seeds and switch them with the three teams Seth Davis thinks got jobbed. Then they keep switching teams until at least two of their "guidelines" are flagrantly violated, then they give the bracket to cbs.

I mean, when you look at how the Pac 12 teams were placed, how do you conclude they use any other method?

Yeah.

Everybody's all "Maryland and Virginia got what was comin to them." OK, so then how did Illinois get a 7-seed with a losing conference record? I know they don't really look at the conference record, but this would seem to confirm Bilas' assertion that it's more about who you lost to this year than who you beat.

[SCMatt33]

I guess I misunderstood the implications of S curve. But then I'll just call it the Seed List. But it is still just a matter of semantics. I guess I have a convoluted mind but in my mind, it is the exact same thing except instead of putting preference on an easier opponent, they put it on location first.

Semantics is a big deal for the NCAA. Just think, because of semantics, Duke actually has a first round bye! Those first four games are totally different than play-in games. Not the same thing at all.

[hurleyfor3]

Everybody's all "Maryland and Virginia got what was comin to them." OK, so then how did Illinois get a 7-seed with a losing conference record? I know they don't really look at the conference record, but this would seem to confirm Bilas' assertion that it's more about who you lost to this year than who you beat.

I was serious about the "committee violates two of their guidelines" part -- this year they cleverly pulled this off with a single matchup! Unlv vs. California. Not only does it repeat a matchup from earlier in the year, it gives 12-seed Cal a virtual home game.

[ice-9]

Well, the biggest problem posed by "Big 10 champ Wisconsin" is how'd they sneak into the locker room and steal the trophy from Ohio State?

Oops! That's what I get for posting after watching the UNC-Miami game, sleeping three hours, and then getting back up for Selection Sunday! (I'm in Asia.)

A scrambled brain...