"ACC needs to play its tournament in Madison Square Garden"

[jay]

All of the above and more. I got a decent hotel deal in fact, although you wouldn't have known the tournament was going on, in contrast to every hotel lobby I've been in when it has been in Greensboro.

http://www.dukebasketballreport.com/...485#post591485

Sorry, but your reasons for DC being a horrible ACC venue are relatively benign, IMO.

Weather? Seriously? So there was a bad weekend of weather in DC. Spring in DC is beautiful. I'm in DC right now and it's crisp, sunny and beautiful.

As for scalping tickets, sure DC has pretty strict scalping laws and the cops it sounds like were a bit heavy handed, but using that as an argument for not having a tournament is pretty specious if you ask me.

Not enough people wearing team gear around town? Again, seriously? The DC metro area is over 5 million people. Of course it's not going to be as saturated with people wearing team gear as Greensboro. But is that really one of your top 3 criteria for enjoying a tournament?

Here's my criteria: I want a good venue (Verizon center is a great venue, I've been to many games there) in an accessible area (DC metro is as easy to get around as they get) with plenty of good hotel/pub/food options (check, check, check) and the kind of people where I can sit down next to someone at a bar where there's a game on and strike up a conversation without being told to $#% off. DC has that. That, and I want seats filled (2005 had somewhere in the vicinity of 121,000...not bad).

Most of all, I want Duke to win (check on that one, too!)

This isn't to say I want the tourney in DC every year. No way. I want it in Greensboro 4 out of 5 years. But the off year, it needs to rotate around the conference geographical area, and DC is a more than adequate venue.

[ChillinDuke]

I agree, I'm not sure why anyone thinks some other place besides Greensboro is easier to get to, from or around for the typical ACC basketball fan. Maybe Charlotte is close. You make it sound like trying to get to Yellowstone in the middle of January.



My experience is the exact opposite: for most tournament attendees I've encountered, Greensboro "does it" better than anywhere else. I don't go to to see art museums, or fancy restaurants, or clubs. There's no time! There's less that gets in the way at Greensboro, and that is its attraction.



Why do you, or anyone else, need there to be a basketball tournament in town to do this?



Let's see... The checks from espn don't depend on where the thing is. Ticket sales, to the extent there's a difference, are probably BETTER in a place that is closer to the majority of fans. Greensboro holds more people than MSG. Cost of leasing the building is indubitably lower. I can go on.



This is MORE likely happen in Greensboro, where there are fewer other things to do. Anyway, the number of available tickets for any game is at most 1-2% of the teevee audience. I guess you'd prefer empty arenas, because it means more tickets floating around?



Now that's silly. I doubt candidates have ever focused their campaigns on more than a handful of states.

I'm more than happy to disagree with you on this and let it be. But I know very few people that would experience a college basketball conference tournament game the way you describe. Doing nothing but college bball games for 4 or 5 consecutive days and bookending flights on possibly Tuesday night and Monday morning, while enjoying little more than a hotel, surrounded by die-hard basketball fans does not by any reasonable metric seem to me as the way most people choose to experience a college basketball game let alone the way that the ACC should be attempting to promote itself going forward.

Whether that's the way me or you would like it, now that's a different story.

- Chillin

[jay]

I still don't understand how staging it at MSG actually gets more eyeballs on it. What you have is a bunch of New Yorkers walking around on Seventh Avenue ignoring it, and maybe fewer people from GA/SC/NC/VA willing to haul up there to attend it.

Not to mention, MSG is kind of a dump. It's not old enough to be vintage like Cameron or Allen, and it's not new enough to not be a 60s-era dump.

If you don't think the Big East tournament is paid attention to in NYC during championship week, then I gather you've never been there during championship week.

That's not to say the ACC tournament would be equally received. But saying everyone in NYC and their cat turns their nose up at a conference basketball tournament is just not accurate.

[hurleyfor3]

Not enough people wearing team gear around town? Again, seriously? The DC metro area is over 5 million people. Of course it's not going to be as saturated with people wearing team gear as Greensboro. But is that really one of your top 3 criteria for enjoying a tournament?

My top three criteria for enjoying a tournament, not necessarily one sponsored by the Atlantic Coast Conference, are:

1. Duke wins
2. Unc loses as early as possible
3. Tickets are inexpensive and involve a minimum of hassle to procure

DC succeeded at #1, did ok with #2 and failed at #3.

The ACC absolutely wants rear ends in seats; this is why, for example, schools don't have equal allotments anymore. A healthy and unfettered secondary market helps greatly in this regard. Greensboro has this and DC doesn't.

Here's my criteria: I want a good venue (Verizon center is a great venue, I've been to many games there)

The upper levels in DC seem farther away from the floor than in Greensboro -- both set further back from the floor AND higher up -- and thus more tickets are dreck.

I want it in Greensboro 4 out of 5 years.

We largely agree here.

[CameronBlue]

Next year's conference tournament (4 rounds over 5 days?) will rival in size what the NCAA tournament was as late as the mid-70s (a 22-25 team event.) The ACC already has a fair measure of CBB's royalty. Add to those Louisville, Notre Dame, Syracuse and potentially UConn and it's not a stretch of the imagination to envision an ACC final that actually eclipses the NCAA final, at least in terms of competitiveness. That's a marketing opportunity you just don't carelessly discard if creating another orgy of advertising is your thing. It's not a question of generating more eyes as much as it is elevating the stature of the league and providing more marketing opportunities for advertisers who want to be attached to the event. This is the tournament's trajectory whether we like it or not. Leave it up to the folks on Madison Avenue to turn it into an event worthy of MSG but the tournament is apt to outgrow Greensboro.

[Newton_14]

Your idea of "accessible" is a $40 (LGA) or $60 (JFK) cab ride from either of the country's least pleasant airports?

You ever been to a tournament in Greensboro? Every airline flies there. I'm not sure "Greensboro rush hour" is a thing. And if you don't like GSO, the drive from RDU to the Colisseum has taken me less time than some cab rides I've had from LGA.



Weather? Hotel rates? Cost of everything else? Getting around? Finding tickets? Friendliness? Overall hassle factor? Ability to procure beverages larger than 16 ounces? That's every meaningful factor I can think of.



Not sure why this is ever a concern to anyone who has experience attending whole tournaments. Thursday and Friday are wall-to-wall basketball. Saturday you sleep in a little because you're tired from Friday, you go to the games, then go to dinner, then go to bed. Sunday you catch the championship game and drive or fly home in the afternoon. So you eat out a little, but I'm not sure where people have all this non-basketball time. That, of course, is what makes the tournament so great.

Again, if it's so vital to have the MSG in the permanent rotation, why did the Big East disintegrate?

.

Bingo. Sorry, no offense to Wilson or Chillin, but where the ACC holds its basketball tourney has zippo to do with realignment, poaching, stability of the league. Realignment has everything to do with Football and tv money. Hoops are just along for the ride and for all intent and purposes, when it comes to conference realignment, basketball may as well be considered one of the non-revenue generating sports like volleyball. It just does not factor in. Think for a minute The Big 10 wanted Maryland for its hoops? No chance. They could not care less. They wanted DC Televisions and Football revenue on the off chance Maryland makes a bowl every 10 years or so.

Greensboro is the best spot for the tourney, but rotating it around every so often can indeed be a good thing. It just does not factor in to the realignment situation.

[toooskies]

MSG is a historically significant basketball venue for which the pro stars have great respect. It's a great venue for us, too, with lots of Duke transplants there. It would give the conference gravitas with the national media talking heads who go to the tournament close to their home/TV studio.

Not saying other venues are bad, but MSG has tangible PR benefits league-wide. If MSG helps an ACC coach get a recruit he wanted, while Greensboro wouldn't, doesn't it make sense to take that opportunity when it makes sense?

Again, it might not, financially and otherwise. But I don't think many in the national media or any college kids see the allure of a tournament in Greensboro. Regardless of how the experience actually is, it's not getting recruits to want to go to Miami or BC or Georgia Tech. Greensboro has, at best, a regional appeal when teams and conferences need to be nationally relevant to matter these days.

[wilson]

MSG is a historically significant basketball venue for which the pro stars have great respect. It's a great venue for us, too, with lots of Duke transplants there. It would give the conference gravitas with the national media talking heads who go to the tournament close to their home/TV studio.

Not saying other venues are bad, but MSG has tangible PR benefits league-wide. If MSG helps an ACC coach get a recruit he wanted, while Greensboro wouldn't, doesn't it make sense to take that opportunity when it makes sense?

Again, it might not, financially and otherwise. But I don't think many in the national media or any college kids see the allure of a tournament in Greensboro. Regardless of how the experience actually is, it's not getting recruits to want to go to Miami or BC or Georgia Tech. Greensboro has, at best, a regional appeal when teams and conferences need to be nationally relevant to matter these days.

This is another good encapsulation of the thrust of Thamel's piece. I don't think anyone denies that football carries by far the most athletic weight these days, and I don't even necessarily think that people are trying to claim that an ACC tournament in New York City would bear that much in the way of financial benefits, even in a strictly basketball context. But for the reasons outlined above, I do think it would be beneficial to ACC basketball, and thus to the conference overall. That, I believe, is the point Thamel was trying to make (And I never even said I agreed with it; I just said I thought it was an interesting point, and one that Thamel made effectively).

[roywhite]

For what it's worth, around 1990, NASCAR, another sport with major roots in the Carolinas, started having their annual year-end awards show in New York City. Factors involved were establishing a broader audience and improving the brand; no place like the media capital of the country to do that.

Postscript is that they have since moved to Las Vegas, but held their event in NYC for 18 years or so.

Just my opinion, but I think it makes sense to have the ACC Tournament at MSG for at least part of a rotation.

[throatybeard]

We can't even fill the Greensboro Coliseum with butts for this thing anymore. Why does anyone think it's going to work at Madison Square Garden?

[follyblue]

I am younger than many on this board, and I also grew up and currently live in New York. So I admit that my view is perhaps biased.

But I think it's time for the ACC to move with the times. As AD Kevin White mentioned (and perhaps I'm paraphrasing here) in the Al Featherston piece linked on the homepage, there is a need to balance tradition and history with a conscious effort to move forward and position the league for the future.

The ACC is a wonderful league with many powerhouse programs in it. It's time to embrace the new normal and move forward. Having the ACC Tournament in Greensboro is great for those of you in NC and those of you at Duke. But for the majority of Duke alums (and more importantly, the vast majority of the country - "eyeballs" as Kevin White put it), it's out of the way in a small city that is not easily accessible, not overly appealing in any meaningful way, and frankly not particularly exciting for fans or players. That's not supposed to be a knock on Greensboro - just a former Dukie's take on a destination I have visited on two separate occasions for Duke tourney games (once ACCT, once NCAA).

Anyone here that wants realignment to end (at least for the ACC) or, worse yet, fears for Duke having a place at the table when all is said and done should be welcoming the ACCT venturing out of its "comfort zone" to other cities, other venues, and other audiences. The way I see it, we can't have both the history and tradition of things such as the ACCT in Greensboro (at least with the frequency with which it's currently played there) as well as a solidified, stable league with ample revenues to keep schools happy and/or lure other schools if current members decide to leave.

We need to adapt. Heck, we should want to adapt - at least to some degree. We should be proud of our league and want to parade it around the country for all to see - not keep it rooted in the same place it has largely been linked with throughout my entire life, and likely beyond.

The ACCT should reasonably be held in Miami, Atlanta, DC, NYC, Boston, Pittsburgh, and Greensboro too. Rotate it. Send it around. Accumulate more "eyeballs".

That's what I say. Many will probably disagree. But it's 2013 - it's time to get "global".

- Chillin

Totally agree with this. I live in the south and have gone to the tournament for 20 years, but I have stopped going to Greensboro because there is absolutely nothing else to do there, no place to eat, and only drab generic hotels. The games are great, but there is nothing else there that would appeal to many many Duke fans. I would love to see a tournament in NYC once in a while. Plus I would rather take a one hour plane ride than a five hour drive. I would imagine I am noT alone in this thinking. Most people I know would rather go to NYC than Greensboro. Boston or Pittsburgh would be fun too. Guess it is just a matter of opinion.

[throatybeard]

Totally agree with this. I live in the south and have gone to the tournament for 20 years, but I have stopped going to Greensboro because there is absolutely nothing else to do there, no place to eat, and only drab generic hotels.

Finally, an anti-Greensboro argument that makes some sense.

So, it's nice that Stamey's is on the west side of the arena, but Greensboro is not a real city. It's a typically, terribly, generic sprawl-mess with no walkable urban area around the arena. I'm from the South, but by and large, we have a disgusting built environment down there. In this respect, just about anywhere up north is incredibly superior, especially New York. These places also have terrible sprawl on their outskirts, but they have a core that is actually a functional built environments for walking humans.

There are probably 100 places to eat near MSG that you can walk to. And you're not screwing around with a stupid car.

[-bdbd]

If you are comfortable with the DC Metro system, DC is a wonderful venue. If you leave (or approach) the arena there are 30-50 watering holes, restaurants and clubs within a ten-minute walk. If you leave G'bo between sessions and walk ten minutes, you are on some useless surface arterial with no amenities whatsoever. Sorry, Greensburrowers.]

So, if the problem is the DC Metro, get over it! It is a very good system and easily navigated (although watch out for closing time).

Similarly, in NY, Madison Square Garden is across the street from Union Station and the nexus of many different NY subway lines. Plus it is less than a one-mile walk from much of interest in Manhattan.

Now, both locations and especially NY are inconvenient to the ACC's traditional fan base. I guess Pete Hamel would say, "That's the ACC's problem." In fact, according to Al Featherston, over one-half of the members of the ACC sports media association are in NC. Does that sound like a conference of national signficance? Maybe it's time to put on a big-boy suit and go to the big city.

sagegrouse
'I got totally flamed the last time I made such comments'

Gotta totally agree with Sage here. NYC would give the ACC great coverage, exposure, respect, help with recruiting and open us up to new groups of fans. It is, simply, in the ACC's long-term interest. But, yes, it is less convenient for those who live in the Carolinas and who have grown spoiled with keeping it near-by. There is a limited window opening up here for the league, where we can actually get into MSG for a few years. It doesn't need to be permanent, but would be very sensible to sign a two or three-year deal, or maybe every other year over a six year window?

BTW, here's a good summarizing article on the topic from a NC media outlet:

http://www.wralsportsfan.com/should-...nyc-/12224455/

[ChillinDuke]

We can't even fill the Greensboro Coliseum with butts for this thing anymore. Why does anyone think it's going to work at Madison Square Garden?

I'm not sure that anyone does.

Well, to rephrase, I'm sure someone does.

My point is much simpler than this.

No one in NYC - aside from alums and die hard fans - cares about the ACC. Today. It's a Big East city.

Granted, you can say all you want about pro sports vs. college sports and NYC. I've heard it all. It's fair - to a large degree. But NYC is a city of 8,000,000 people - 10,000,000 in the greater Metropolitan area (which includes the areas in NJ, CT, and upstate NY which are in close proximity/commuter areas to the technical boundaries of the city). By a quick Google search, that is more than the entire state of North Carolina.

The Big East is now gone. Or somewhat gone. So given the fact that if NYC was partial to any conference it was almost certainly the Big East, shouldn't it be time to (not only accept Big East teams into the ACC, but) at least attempt to make the ACC what the Big East was in the largest market in the USA. And beyond.

Listen, it doesn't matter to me. I'm a Dukie. A die hard. And I will be there. Regardless. And my point is in no way about singular NYC. But if you think keeping the ACC Tournament in a venue such as Greensboro with the frequency that it is currently, well, I simply disagree. And that's OK. I just disagree.

Please make no mistake. Greensboro is an excellent venue and an excellent host city. There is nothing wrong with it. There is also nothing wrong with keeping our tourney there in a significant way.

But to ignore the fact that this realignment is about TV screens, geographic footprint, and "eyeballs" (on this topic it's already been submitted to ad nauseum that this is the obvious driver re college football) or at least not give adequate thought to the concept that the ACC (whether speaking re the tournament or its future in general) should expand itself beyond "North Carolina" (read: its traditional footprint) seems to miss what many consider the writing on the wall.

Make no mistake, I am in no way saying anyone here is ignorant. But the thought that the ACCT should be in Greensboro 4 of every 5, 3 of every 4, or even 2 of every 3 years seems to be grounded much more in personal preference / history and less in the facts and circumstances that have been admitted to be the "new normal" that we are all hoping works in our favor.

My point is much less about NYC or any city and much more about let's stop "hoping" that this all works in our favor and start driving our own future.

MSG, NYC, DC, or any other shorthand abbreviation will very likely have little to do with where we end up as a conference at the end of the day. So to pick on them in this discussion seems to miss the point.

My point is succinctly - let's make a move (perhaps uncomfortably to many) - or else be moved upon. AD Dr. Kevin White seems to agree with this.

- Chillin

PS - Greensboro is great. The ACC (as a conference) is better.

[throatybeard]

OK, let's reset. Let me talk about a regional dispute in my neck of the woods.

For years, Kansas City has been considered the center of gravity for the Big8 and then the Big XII. Texas has a lot more people in it than most of these states, and a lot of influence in the Big XII, God knows. There has been a lot of talk about how everything should be in Dallas. For championships, This makes the assumption that all these people from Iowa and Nebraska are going to haul down to Texas instead of KC, which is kind of in the middle of all this. Maybe the richest ones will.

BUT, Dallas has this going for it: UT, A&M (previously), TTU and Baylor are all in the same state, and OU and OkSU aren't that far away. There are Big XII South schools near the new big-market proposed site.

All NYC has is SU alums, a few Duke, VT, UVA and BC fans. (Notre Dame?) The idea that randoms with eyeballs who have no ties to one of the schools are going to wander in off Seventh or Eight Avenue to see Clemson play NC State is beyond absurd. It's way, way sillier than moving Big Plains stuff to Texas.

[fgb]

(As an aside, even though I grew up in Maryland and am basically an adopted southerner, I can't stand views like comparing New York to the Ritz Carlton and Greensboro to a Super 8. How about the view from down here, which would more accurately ask: would you rather see the tournament in the ease, comfort, and convenience of Greensboro, or fly up to crowded, cranky, unpleasant New York so you can fight for cabs, pay too much for your hotel room and every meal you get, to watch the ACC tournament surrounded by Knicks fans?

Sort of like saying, yeah, those BBQ joints down east like Wilbur's Nd skylight inn are quaint and all, but wouldn't you be more comfy eating eastern nc BBQ in a nicer chair in Blue Smoke?

[-bdbd]

OK, let's reset. Let me talk about a regional dispute in my neck of the woods.

For years, Kansas City has been considered the center of gravity for the Big8 and then the Big XII. Texas has a lot more people in it than most of these states, and a lot of influence in the Big XII, God knows. There has been a lot of talk about how everything should be in Dallas. For championships, This makes the assumption that all these people from Iowa and Nebraska are going to haul down to Texas instead of KC, which is kind of in the middle of all this. Maybe the richest ones will.

BUT, Dallas has this going for it: UT, A&M (previously), TTU and Baylor are all in the same state, and OU and OkSU aren't that far away. There are Big XII South schools near the new big-market proposed site.

All NYC has is SU alums, a few Duke, VT, UVA and BC fans. (Notre Dame?) The idea that randoms with eyeballs who have no ties to one of the schools are going to wander in off Seventh or Eight Avenue to see Clemson play NC State is beyond absurd. It's way, way sillier than moving Big Plains stuff to Texas.

In a city/metro area of over ten million, you seriously think they'd have trouble filling up a 25,000 seat arena, given all of the "big event" media attention it is sure to be drawing??? Especially if your Clemson (example) team is playing vs Duke, or NC or Pitt, or Notre Dame (which, BTW, is the number one NYC TV market team allegiance, just ahead of PSU and then Rutgers and Syracuse - I've seen the numbers) or BC. Yes, NYC is currently a "B.E. town," but it wan't always so. That is a big part of the point here - we are trying to attract NEW fans and interest and MEDIA EXPOSURE. There's just no denying that those things would be very good for the league. The (legit) counter question is just whether it is worth the ACC giving up a chunk of it's small-town/southern roots to get those gains. I think the answer is clearly yes, especially if it isn't a full-time, permanent move.

[jay]

Finally, an anti-Greensboro argument that makes some sense.

Heyyyy, I made (kind of) this same argument a while back in regards to DC.

[hurleyfor3]

Make no mistake, I am in no way saying anyone here is ignorant. But the thought that the ACCT should be in Greensboro 4 of every 5, 3 of every 4, or even 2 of every 3 years seems to be grounded much more in personal preference

And you want us to believe that your opinion, as a New Yorker, has nothing to do with personal preference?

Sorry I missed this howler earlier:

Doing nothing but college bball games for 4 or 5 consecutive days and bookending flights on possibly Tuesday night and Monday morning, while enjoying little more than a hotel, surrounded by die-hard basketball fans does not by any reasonable metric seem to me as the way most people choose to experience a college basketball game

That is the way MOST people experience the ACC tournament! Not to mention the NCAA early round games (ok, you get a day off there). And usually I fly in Thursday, out Sunday evening. Vacation days are a scarce resource.

[Duvall]

In a city/metro area of over ten million, you seriously think they'd have trouble filling up a 25,000 seat arena, given all of the "big event" media attention it is sure to be drawing??? Especially if your Clemson (example) team is playing vs Duke, or NC or Pitt, or Notre Dame (which, BTW, is the number one NYC TV market team allegiance, just ahead of PSU and then Rutgers and Syracuse - I've seen the numbers) or BC. Yes, NYC is currently a "B.E. town," but it wan't always so. That is a big part of the point here - we are trying to attract NEW fans and interest and MEDIA EXPOSURE.

You can't cite the popularity of Duke, UNC and Notre Dame as a reason to expect reasonable ticket sales and then turn around and suggest that the league could benefit from new media exposure. Those schools are already overexposed!