"ACC needs to play its tournament in Madison Square Garden"

[ChillinDuke]

I hate this idea with a passion. From a dollars standpoint maybe there's something there. I'm sure if the ACC can boast marquee names it will draw well in MSG. But moving the pinnacle of the ACC season from it's passionate, deep roots in the heart of North Carolina to New York, where people have absolutely no true passion for the conference, would be a TV dollars move that craps all over the history, and most loyal fanbase, of the ACC.

Conference realingnment is, I have accepted, a necessary evil to keep the conference alive. Moving the oldest and best conference tournament to New York isn't necessary for the survival of the ACC. It's just a few dollars more, at the cost of a little more of the conference's soul.

(As an aside, even though I grew up in Maryland and am basically an adopted southerner, I can't stand views like comparing New York to the Ritz Carlton and Greensboro to a Super 8. How about the view from down here, which would more accurately ask: would you rather see the tournament in the ease, comfort, and convenience of Greensboro, or fly up to crowded, cranky, unpleasant New York so you can fight for cabs, pay too much for your hotel room and every meal you get, to watch the ACC tournament surrounded by Knicks fans? Ugh. If the ACC did a 10 year deal with MSG, those would be 10 ACC Tournaments I'd be watching from home.)

I am younger than many on this board, and I also grew up and currently live in New York. So I admit that my view is perhaps biased.

But I think it's time for the ACC to move with the times. As AD Kevin White mentioned (and perhaps I'm paraphrasing here) in the Al Featherston piece linked on the homepage, there is a need to balance tradition and history with a conscious effort to move forward and position the league for the future.

The ACC is a wonderful league with many powerhouse programs in it. It's time to embrace the new normal and move forward. Having the ACC Tournament in Greensboro is great for those of you in NC and those of you at Duke. But for the majority of Duke alums (and more importantly, the vast majority of the country - "eyeballs" as Kevin White put it), it's out of the way in a small city that is not easily accessible, not overly appealing in any meaningful way, and frankly not particularly exciting for fans or players. That's not supposed to be a knock on Greensboro - just a former Dukie's take on a destination I have visited on two separate occasions for Duke tourney games (once ACCT, once NCAA).

Anyone here that wants realignment to end (at least for the ACC) or, worse yet, fears for Duke having a place at the table when all is said and done should be welcoming the ACCT venturing out of its "comfort zone" to other cities, other venues, and other audiences. The way I see it, we can't have both the history and tradition of things such as the ACCT in Greensboro (at least with the frequency with which it's currently played there) as well as a solidified, stable league with ample revenues to keep schools happy and/or lure other schools if current members decide to leave.

We need to adapt. Heck, we should want to adapt - at least to some degree. We should be proud of our league and want to parade it around the country for all to see - not keep it rooted in the same place it has largely been linked with throughout my entire life, and likely beyond.

The ACCT should reasonably be held in Miami, Atlanta, DC, NYC, Boston, Pittsburgh, and Greensboro too. Rotate it. Send it around. Accumulate more "eyeballs".

That's what I say. Many will probably disagree. But it's 2013 - it's time to get "global".

- Chillin

[wilson]

The ACCT should reasonably be held in Miami, Atlanta, DC, NYC, Boston, Pittsburgh, and Greensboro too. Rotate it. Send it around. Accumulate more "eyeballs".

That's what I say. Many will probably disagree. But it's 2013 - it's time to get "global".

- Chillin

Good post, and I think the above is the crux of Thamel's point.

[weezie]

Well what a coinky dink...here I am in NYC unable for the first time in years to attend the tourney in Gboro or Charlotte ( which now stinks since it moved downtown) and I think a bit if variety can only work to ACC's advantage. Miami?! Heck yeah! Pburgh ehhhh only if h43 hosts a party.I'm willing to travel and so it's the Duke team. Didn't K break the wins milestone in the large Apple?

[hurleyfor3]

But for the majority of Duke alums (and more importantly, the vast majority of the country - "eyeballs" as Kevin White put it), it's out of the way in a small city that is not easily accessible

Your idea of "accessible" is a $40 (LGA) or $60 (JFK) cab ride from either of the country's least pleasant airports?

You ever been to a tournament in Greensboro? Every airline flies there. I'm not sure "Greensboro rush hour" is a thing. And if you don't like GSO, the drive from RDU to the Colisseum has taken me less time than some cab rides I've had from LGA.

not overly appealing in any meaningful way

Weather? Hotel rates? Cost of everything else? Getting around? Finding tickets? Friendliness? Overall hassle factor? Ability to procure beverages larger than 16 ounces? That's every meaningful factor I can think of.

and frankly not particularly exciting for fans or players.

Not sure why this is ever a concern to anyone who has experience attending whole tournaments. Thursday and Friday are wall-to-wall basketball. Saturday you sleep in a little because you're tired from Friday, you go to the games, then go to dinner, then go to bed. Sunday you catch the championship game and drive or fly home in the afternoon. So you eat out a little, but I'm not sure where people have all this non-basketball time. That, of course, is what makes the tournament so great.

Again, if it's so vital to have the MSG in the permanent rotation, why did the Big East disintegrate?

[throatybeard]

I don't understand how the tournament being at MSG really gets it more exposure. It's already on ESPN. Who does this benefit other than Syracuse alums? I seriously doubt random sports fans in New York City are going to go to MSG to watch Clemson-Florida State. You could hold it on the USS North Carolina and it would still be televised on ESPN.

Re: airports, by the way, it's perfectly easy to get to LGA from Manhattan for $2.50 on the Subway and the M60 bus. Took me about 50 minutes from Columbus Circle on Sunday. JFK is a little harder because of the added step of that weird little airtrain.

[Duvall]

I am younger than many on this board, and I also grew up and currently live in New York. So I admit that my view is perhaps biased.

But I think it's time for the ACC to move with the times. As AD Kevin White mentioned (and perhaps I'm paraphrasing here) in the Al Featherston piece linked on the homepage, there is a need to balance tradition and history with a conscious effort to move forward and position the league for the future.

The ACC is a wonderful league with many powerhouse programs in it. It's time to embrace the new normal and move forward. Having the ACC Tournament in Greensboro is great for those of you in NC and those of you at Duke. But for the majority of Duke alums (and more importantly, the vast majority of the country - "eyeballs" as Kevin White put it), it's out of the way in a small city that is not easily accessible, not overly appealing in any meaningful way, and frankly not particularly exciting for fans or players. That's not supposed to be a knock on Greensboro - just a former Dukie's take on a destination I have visited on two separate occasions for Duke tourney games (once ACCT, once NCAA).

Anyone here that wants realignment to end (at least for the ACC) or, worse yet, fears for Duke having a place at the table when all is said and done should be welcoming the ACCT venturing out of its "comfort zone" to other cities, other venues, and other audiences. The way I see it, we can't have both the history and tradition of things such as the ACCT in Greensboro (at least with the frequency with which it's currently played there) as well as a solidified, stable league with ample revenues to keep schools happy and/or lure other schools if current members decide to leave.

We need to adapt. Heck, we should want to adapt - at least to some degree. We should be proud of our league and want to parade it around the country for all to see - not keep it rooted in the same place it has largely been linked with throughout my entire life, and likely beyond.

The ACCT should reasonably be held in Miami, Atlanta, DC, NYC, Boston, Pittsburgh, and Greensboro too. Rotate it. Send it around. Accumulate more "eyeballs".

That's what I say. Many will probably disagree. But it's 2013 - it's time to get "global".

- Chillin

With the tradition and success of the ACC's schools in basketball, there is no need to travel the world to get global. Regardless of where we play, the eyeballs of the world will come to us.

If holding the ACC Tournament in Madison Square Garden or anywhere else would mean more revenue for the conference, then that's definitely something that should be considered. But I have yet to hear a convincing argument - or an unconvincing argument - that this would be the case.

[wilson]

Re: airports, by the way, it's perfectly easy to get to LGA from Manhattan for $2.50 on the Subway and the M60 bus. Took me about 50 minutes from Columbus Circle on Sunday. JFK is a little harder because of the added step of that weird little airtrain.

I always do this too. The last time I was in NYC, I made it to LGA from Brooklyn in under an hour using only the Metro. I have no idea why people insist that you have to get a cab.

[Tripping William]

Coach K (the GOAT) loves Greensboro almost as much as he loves Tyler Thornton. Shouldn't that effectively end the discussion? ;-)

[sagegrouse]

Your idea of "accessible" is a $40 (LGA) or $60 (JFK) cab ride from either of the country's least pleasant airports?

I dunno Hurleyfor3, I either take the train or the $25 bus when I go to NY. Both put me right next to MSG.

sage

[Bluedog]

Your idea of "accessible" is a $40 (LGA) or $60 (JFK) cab ride from either of the country's least pleasant airports?

You ever been to a tournament in Greensboro? Every airline flies there. I'm not sure "Greensboro rush hour" is a thing. And if you don't like GSO, the drive from RDU to the Colisseum has taken me less time than some cab rides I've had from LGA.



Weather? Hotel rates? Cost of everything else? Getting around? Finding tickets? Friendliness? Overall hassle factor? Ability to procure beverages larger than 16 ounces? That's every meaningful factor I can think of.



Not sure why this is ever a concern to anyone who has experience attending whole tournaments. Thursday and Friday are wall-to-wall basketball. Saturday you sleep in a little because you're tired from Friday, you go to the games, then go to dinner, then go to bed. Sunday you catch the championship game and drive or fly home in the afternoon. So you eat out a little, but I'm not sure where people have all this non-basketball time. That, of course, is what makes the tournament so great.

Again, if it's so vital to have the MSG in the permanent rotation, why did the Big East disintegrate?

I'm sure Greensboro does a great place hosting the ACC tournament and it's a good experience for people coming in from out of town (I haven't been fortunate to attend yet...), but I think ChillinDuke's point is simply that for most people, when they come up with a trip idea for themselves or the family, the prospect of visiting NYC and watching Duke play at the same time is appealing. It's not that Greensboro is a bad place - simply that NYC is a more desirable tourist destination and has more things to do there. Nothing wrong with that. NYC attracts people from around the world in large numbers for a reason. I'd like to see some rotation of sites, but I think Greensboro has proven successful throughout history, so should get the tournament most of the years. And it's also convenient for a lot of fanbases and as throatybeard says, the games are on ESPN anyways, so not like MSG gives it that much more exposure for the casual fan.

[hurleyfor3]

OK, most of my recent trips to NYC were for business. (I'd like to see any of you take the bus when you're wearing a suit, carrying a rollaboard, and on your way to present to a $20 billion hedge fund manager.) Still, I'll race you, you do LGA to Penn, I'll do GSO to the Coliseum. Weezie, you get IAD to the Verizon Center.

No one disputed the overall unpleasantness of LGA and JFK, either. That says something. Oh, and I've never had any of the flight delays at GSO like I have at LGA. How's the bus gonna save you there?

[throatybeard]

OK, most of my recent trips to NYC were for business. (I'd like to see any of you take the bus when you're wearing a suit, carrying a rollaboard, and on your way to present to a $20 billion hedge fund manager.)

I thought I was going to a basketball game in casual dress.

[ChillinDuke]

Maybe a little over the top here, Hurley?

Your idea of "accessible" is a $40 (LGA) or $60 (JFK) cab ride from either of the country's least pleasant airports?

You ever been to a tournament in Greensboro?

Yes, twice.

Every airline flies there.

Are we really going to debate accessibility of Greensboro vs the other 6 cities I mentioned?

I'm not sure "Greensboro rush hour" is a thing. And if you don't like GSO, the drive from RDU to the Colisseum has taken me less time than some cab rides I've had from LGA.

Fair enough.

Weather? Hotel rates? Cost of everything else? Getting around? Finding tickets? Friendliness? Overall hassle factor? Ability to procure beverages larger than 16 ounces? That's every meaningful factor I can think of.

That's all fine and good - and I don't disagree - but it's going to be a hard sell to convince me that the majority of people who would consider attending a college basketball game would act on that thought in Greensboro. Again, my point is not that me or you wouldn't go to or don't like Greensboro. I quite enjoy having the ACCT there. But for the majority of people interested in attending a conference tournament basketball game, Greensboro is not going to do it for them. Heck, even I would be more likely to travel to Miami, Atlanta, Boston, or DC than I would to Gboro for an ACCT tourney game.

Why? Not the weather, not the hotel rates, not the cost, not getting around, not finding tickets, not because the folks are kind, nothing to do with hassle, nothing to do with Bloomberg and his sugary drinks - but because I have friends in those cities that I'd like to catch up with, see a game with; places I'd like to go while I'm in town; make a weekend of it.

Again - I (and I assume you) am not a representative human being to use against your metric because I love Duke basketball and would go through almost any length to see a game in person if I could manage it.

The vast majority of people are not like me. And so my feelings re: Gboro are not really relevant to my overall point.

Not sure why this is ever a concern to anyone who has experience attending whole tournaments. Thursday and Friday are wall-to-wall basketball. Saturday you sleep in a little because you're tired from Friday, you go to the games, then go to dinner, then go to bed. Sunday you catch the championship game and drive or fly home in the afternoon. So you eat out a little, but I'm not sure where people have all this non-basketball time. That, of course, is what makes the tournament so great.

Again, if it's so vital to have the MSG in the permanent rotation, why did the Big East disintegrate?

Come on now. No one is saying it's vital to have it at MSG. And no one is blaming the Big East's disintegration on not having enough games in NYC.

My point is that having the ACCT in bigger cities (along with Greensboro) and expanding the "eyeballs" on the ACC can't really be a bad thing. Can it?

I mean, if you're arguing for the ACCT to be in Gboro with the same amount of frequency it currently is, with all personal preferences aside, can you explain the business sense/going concern aspect of your view?

With the tradition and success of the ACC's schools in basketball, there is no need to travel the world to get global. Regardless of where we play, the eyeballs of the world will come to us.

If holding the ACC Tournament in Madison Square Garden or anywhere else would mean more revenue for the conference, then that's definitely something that should be considered. But I have yet to hear a convincing argument - or an unconvincing argument - that this would be the case.

To me, it's simple logic. Having the ACC tournament in more and different places increases the amount of potential people that may go to a game, grab a ticket with their girlfriend or boyfriend, see it on a billboard, etc. Which in turn can increase the likelihood someone may become a "fringe"/casual fan and flip on a game for a few minutes here or there. In turn, become a more avid fan, purchase an "ACC Network" package, have a kid that grows up a fan, etc etc. You get the point.

I have no hard facts on any of this. But to your point, if there is no need to get global and the eyeballs will come, why does the President travel all over the country when he's campaigning? Shouldn't everyone just cast their ballot based on TV at this point?

Again, my point is not you or me. It's majorities, possibilities, and all reasonable scenarios.

- Chillin

[hurleyfor3]

I was trying to explain my frame of reference. If it weren't business I'd probably take one of the shuttle buses. Although every one I've taken, the drivers have hustled for tips. Welcome to New York.

[throatybeard]

I still don't understand how staging it at MSG actually gets more eyeballs on it. What you have is a bunch of New Yorkers walking around on Seventh Avenue ignoring it, and maybe fewer people from GA/SC/NC/VA willing to haul up there to attend it.

Not to mention, MSG is kind of a dump. It's not old enough to be vintage like Cameron or Allen, and it's not new enough to not be a 60s-era dump.

[ChillinDuke]

I still don't understand how staging it at MSG actually gets more eyeballs on it. What you have is a bunch of New Yorkers walking around on Seventh Avenue ignoring it, and maybe fewer people from GA/SC/NC/VA willing to haul up there to attend it.

Not to mention, MSG is kind of a dump. It's not old enough to be vintage like Cameron or Allen, and it's not new enough to not be a 60s-era dump.

Your seeming dislike of New Yorkers aside, it's as simple as this: The PAC-12 is on the west coast. I live on the east coast. I don't follow the PAC-12 because it's not relevant in my life, I can't watch the games due to location and timing, I have no horse in the race, and a variety of other reasons that you could probably infer from these.

The PAC-12 is highly unlikely to persuade me to put my eyeballs on them. Not with the status quo. Now if the PAC-12 expanded to the east coast, or had a game closeby, and a friend or my boss called me up offering tickets - you know what? I'd probably go. Maybe I'd even have a good time. Find a player I liked on ASU. Said player goes to the NBA - drafted by my favorite team. See how this goes? It's not crazy to dream up these scenarios. And they aren't outlandish scenarios. All of us can probably relate to these one-off experiences that drew us for or against a certain team, person, event, hobby.

How these things happen is largely through coincidence. And you don't get coincidence without an incidence. And you probably won't improve the likelihood of an incidence unless you change the status quo that has made the incidence not happen in the first place. Catch my drift?

I'm not trying to argue for or against places or cities or anything like that. It's just a view based on how I think things work. It's completely opinionated too - but, I think, reasonable.

And hey, MSG is brand spanking newly renovated from top to bottom. Chairs, concessions, stores, floors, walls, you name it. It's much nicer than it used to be. Give it a spin if you're in the area.

- Chillin

[hurleyfor3]

Are we really going to debate accessibility of Greensboro vs the other 6 cities I mentioned?

I agree, I'm not sure why anyone thinks some other place besides Greensboro is easier to get to, from or around for the typical ACC basketball fan. Maybe Charlotte is close. You make it sound like trying to get to Yellowstone in the middle of January.

But for the majority of people interested in attending a conference tournament basketball game, Greensboro is not going to do it for them.

My experience is the exact opposite: for most tournament attendees I've encountered, Greensboro "does it" better than anywhere else. I don't go to to see art museums, or fancy restaurants, or clubs. There's no time! There's less that gets in the way at Greensboro, and that is its attraction.

Why? Not the weather, not the hotel rates, not the cost, not getting around, not finding tickets, not because the folks are kind, nothing to do with hassle, nothing to do with Bloomberg and his sugary drinks - but because I have friends in those cities that I'd like to catch up with, see a game with; places I'd like to go while I'm in town; make a weekend of it.

Why do you, or anyone else, need there to be a basketball tournament in town to do this?

I mean, if you're arguing for the ACCT to be in Gboro with the same amount of frequency it currently is, with all personal preferences aside, can you explain the business sense/going concern aspect of your view?

Let's see... The checks from espn don't depend on where the thing is. Ticket sales, to the extent there's a difference, are probably BETTER in a place that is closer to the majority of fans. Greensboro holds more people than MSG. Cost of leasing the building is indubitably lower. I can go on.

To me, it's simple logic. Having the ACC tournament in more and different places increases the amount of potential people that may go to a game, grab a ticket with their girlfriend or boyfriend, see it on a billboard, etc.

This is MORE likely happen in Greensboro, where there are fewer other things to do. Anyway, the number of available tickets for any game is at most 1-2% of the teevee audience. I guess you'd prefer empty arenas, because it means more tickets floating around?

I have no hard facts on any of this. But to your point, if there is no need to get global and the eyeballs will come, why does the President travel all over the country when he's campaigning? Shouldn't everyone just cast their ballot based on TV at this point?

Now that's silly. I doubt candidates have ever focused their campaigns on more than a handful of states.

[roywhite]

Didn't see this mentioned, but Jay Bilas is strongly in favor of holding the event in MSG, if not every year, on a regular basis. No place like it, would become the focus of college basketball for the weekend, etc.

Heard Jay recently on a regional sports radio show (it's the one Packman used to host out of Charlotte, now with hosts who are a couple of steps below Packman in humor and insight).

[brevity]

All of the above and more. I got a decent hotel deal in fact, although you wouldn't have known the tournament was going on, in contrast to every hotel lobby I've been in when it has been in Greensboro.

If I could give hurleyfor3 sporks right now, I would, because it never would occur to me that the hotel lobby atmosphere in Greensboro is superior to anywhere else, basketball-wise. Maybe Greensboro is the perfect fit for a 12-team ACC Tournament. Sadly, they won't have those anymore.

I don't think anyone has used these exact words yet, but Greensboro becomes small potatoes as the ACC becomes, officially, the premier conference of the Eastern United States. (I don't think the Catholic 7 or new Big East, whatever its teams, can say the same.) By appearances alone, the ACC will have outgrown Greensboro. More teams, possibly more days, and possibly more byes.

There are hardcore ACC fans that will attend every tourney practice and game, and devote their entire trip to extracting as much basketball experience as possible. Then there are those who will make the arena part of their overall tourist agenda. The ACC already has the first group in its pocket, and will use expansion to entice the second group. And Greensboro will probably not be a part of that.

[throatybeard]

Where did I say I dislike New Yorkers? I like em fine. Went to see a bunch of them this very past weekend. I just think they've got better things to do than watch a bunch of mostly southeastern teams to which they have no ties.