"ACC needs to play its tournament in Madison Square Garden"

[wilson]

When I first read the above headline on the latest column from Pete Thamel of SI, I hated the idea, but by the end, I had to admit at the very least that he's made a very compelling case. The most salient quote: "Greensboro is certainly quaint, but this isn't a time in college sports for quaint."
He's certainly right about that. We can (continue to) debate whether or not the ACC is vulnerable to other conferences' poaching (I certainly believe it is), but he's absolutely correct that with a prime cherry there for the picking in light of the Big East's eminent demise (at least the Big East as we know it), the ACC should jump on it and pick that cherry. And while the "Big East" will of course continue to exist in evolved form, I highly doubt if MSG would remain loyal to that conference name affixed to the likes of the Catholic 7 over programs like Duke, unc, Syracuse, etc.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/col...#ixzz2NXeCeIN1

[ForkFondler]

The ACC should rotate between MSG and Greensboro
The C7 should rotate between MSG and Chicago.
B1G should rotate between Chicago and Philadelphia

[Duvall]

When I first read the above headline on the latest column from Pete Thamel of SI, I hated the idea, but by the end, I had to admit at the very least that he's made a very compelling case. The most salient quote: "Greensboro is certainly quaint, but this isn't a time in college sports for quaint."
He's certainly right about that. We can (continue to) debate whether or not the ACC is vulnerable to other conferences' poaching (I certainly believe it is), but he's absolutely correct that with a prime cherry there for the picking in light of the Big East's eminent demise (at least the Big East as we know it), the ACC should jump on it and pick that cherry. And while the "Big East" will of course continue to exist in evolved form, I highly doubt if MSG would remain loyal to that conference name affixed to the likes of the Catholic 7 over programs like Duke, unc, Syracuse, etc.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/col...#ixzz2NXeCeIN1

One minor question not addressed by Thamel in that piece:

1) How will moving to Madison Square Garden help the ACC make more money? Will it allow them to sell more tickets? Will the "energy" and "environment" of the Garden lead to more TV money from ESPN? What is the substantive, tangible benefit from doing this?

[Bluedog]

I would like to see the ACC play its conference tournament in MSG sometimes, but it's not going to happen in the foreseeable future because reportedly the new Big East (Catholic 7+) has already retained those rights:

http://bostonglobe.com/sports/2013/0...pCP/story.html
http://espn.go.com/college-sports/st...g-east-june-30

"Under terms of the forthcoming settlement, the departing schools will be allowed to keep the Big East name. They also won the right to hold their men’s basketball tournament at Madison Square Garden in New York."
"...sources told ESPN's that the Catholic 7 will keep the Big East Conference name and have the right to play its league tournament in Madison Square Garden."

[davekay1971]

I hate this idea with a passion. From a dollars standpoint maybe there's something there. I'm sure if the ACC can boast marquee names it will draw well in MSG. But moving the pinnacle of the ACC season from it's passionate, deep roots in the heart of North Carolina to New York, where people have absolutely no true passion for the conference, would be a TV dollars move that craps all over the history, and most loyal fanbase, of the ACC.

Conference realingnment is, I have accepted, a necessary evil to keep the conference alive. Moving the oldest and best conference tournament to New York isn't necessary for the survival of the ACC. It's just a few dollars more, at the cost of a little more of the conference's soul.

(As an aside, even though I grew up in Maryland and am basically an adopted southerner, I can't stand views like comparing New York to the Ritz Carlton and Greensboro to a Super 8. How about the view from down here, which would more accurately ask: would you rather see the tournament in the ease, comfort, and convenience of Greensboro, or fly up to crowded, cranky, unpleasant New York so you can fight for cabs, pay too much for your hotel room and every meal you get, to watch the ACC tournament surrounded by Knicks fans? Ugh. If the ACC did a 10 year deal with MSG, those would be 10 ACC Tournaments I'd be watching from home.)

[ForkFondler]

"...sources told ESPN's that the Catholic 7 will keep the Big East Conference name and have the right to play its league tournament in Madison Square Garden."

Sublease, every other year.

[hurleyfor3]

Except the new Big East has said it will be playing there. And the implication in the article is that Brooklyn, East Rutherford and other nearby venues won't suffice.

If it's so important to play there, why didn't doing so save the existing Big East? The NCAA Tournament hasn't been played in NYC in decades, either.

I do think it would be fun to try once. It's hard to imagine it being a worse experience than DC or Tampa. But the ACC thrives because the tournament's home is Greensboro, not despite of it.

[CDu]

One minor question not addressed by Thamel in that piece:

1) How will moving to Madison Square Garden help the ACC make more money? Will it allow them to sell more tickets? Will the "energy" and "environment" of the Garden lead to more TV money from ESPN? What is the substantive, tangible benefit from doing this?

This is far from a minor question (which I suspect was your point). I don't believe that MSG's capacity is greater than that of the arenas in Greesnboro, Charlotte, Atlanta, Tampa, and DC. The question is whether or not fans would travel to attend the games in NYC. Would the lure of Manhattan nightlife and/or watching in MSG be enough convince folks to travel well out of state in ways that they didn't do when the tourney was in Tampa? Maybe, maybe not.

And I don't think MSG would be a reason for increased TV revenue (folks will watch it or they won't, regardless of arenas). So the only reason to make such a move would be if you were confident that attendance would increase by making the move.

I feel like all of the arguments for moving to MSG would be that MSG is an awesome place to have a game. And that's true. But ultimately, "ambience" is a pretty minor factor. Money will be the ultimate key to the decision. If the ACC is convinced that moving to MSG will make them more money, then they'll do it. If not, they won't.

[Monmouth77]

I would like to see the ACC play its conference tournament in MSG sometimes, but it's not going to happen in the foreseeable future because reportedly the new Big East (Catholic 7+) has already retained those rights:

http://bostonglobe.com/sports/2013/0...pCP/story.html
http://espn.go.com/college-sports/st...g-east-june-30

"Under terms of the forthcoming settlement, the departing schools will be allowed to keep the Big East name. They also won the right to hold their men’s basketball tournament at Madison Square Garden in New York."
"...sources told ESPN's that the Catholic 7 will keep the Big East Conference name and have the right to play its league tournament in Madison Square Garden."

Selfishly, I'd love to see it back at the Verizon Center in DC. I went to all the games in 2005 and thought it was a great atmosphere, and now that Maryland's gone, no team would have a geographic advantage.

Lots of ACC alums in the DC metro area too-- with no real overwhelming fanbase.

And it is more in the geographic center between Boston and Miami than New York is.

[Class of '94]

The only reason I would want the ACC tournament to permanently be in MSG would be to block in further advancement of the BIG into the Northeast, midatlantic and Southeast. That said, the new Big East appears to have locked at MSG at least for the time being and I believe the A-10 has locked up the Barclay Center for their tournament; and I don't see the BIG putting on a tournement in the NYC area anytime soon.

[wilson]

I would like to see the ACC play its conference tournament in MSG sometimes, but it's not going to happen in the foreseeable future because reportedly the new Big East (Catholic 7+) has already retained those rights:

http://bostonglobe.com/sports/2013/0...pCP/story.html
http://espn.go.com/college-sports/st...g-east-june-30

"Under terms of the forthcoming settlement, the departing schools will be allowed to keep the Big East name. They also won the right to hold their men’s basketball tournament at Madison Square Garden in New York."
"...sources told ESPN's that the Catholic 7 will keep the Big East Conference name and have the right to play its league tournament in Madison Square Garden."

Well, as I said above, I somehow think that if it came down to ACC bluebloods vs. the Seton Halls of the world, the ACC could work it out if they really wanted to.

One minor question not addressed by Thamel in that piece:

1) How will moving to Madison Square Garden help the ACC make more money? Will it allow them to sell more tickets? Will the "energy" and "environment" of the Garden lead to more TV money from ESPN? What is the substantive, tangible benefit from doing this?

I hate this idea with a passion. From a dollars standpoint maybe there's something there. I'm sure if the ACC can boast marquee names it will draw well in MSG. But moving the pinnacle of the ACC season from it's passionate, deep roots in the heart of North Carolina to New York, where people have absolutely no true passion for the conference, would be a TV dollars move that craps all over the history, and most loyal fanbase, of the ACC.

Conference realingnment is, I have accepted, a necessary evil to keep the conference alive. Moving the oldest and best conference tournament to New York isn't necessary for the survival of the ACC. It's just a few dollars more, at the cost of a little more of the conference's soul.

(As an aside, even though I grew up in Maryland and am basically an adopted southerner, I can't stand views like comparing New York to the Ritz Carlton and Greensboro to a Super 8. How about the view from down here, which would more accurately ask: would you rather see the tournament in the ease, comfort, and convenience of Greensboro, or fly up to crowded, cranky, unpleasant New York so you can fight for cabs, pay too much for your hotel room and every meal you get, to watch the ACC tournament surrounded by Knicks fans? Ugh. If the ACC did a 10 year deal with MSG, those would be 10 ACC Tournaments I'd be watching from home.)

This is far from a minor question (which I suspect was your point). I don't believe that MSG's capacity is greater than that of the arenas in Greesnboro, Charlotte, Atlanta, Tampa, and DC. The question is whether or not fans would travel to attend the games in NYC. Would the lure of Manhattan nightlife and/or watching in MSG be enough convince folks to travel well out of state in ways that they didn't do when the tourney was in Tampa? Maybe, maybe not.

And I don't think MSG would be a reason for increased TV revenue (folks will watch it or they won't, regardless of arenas). So the only reason to make such a move would be if you were confident that attendance would increase by making the move.

I feel like all of the arguments for moving to MSG would be that MSG is an awesome place to have a game. And that's true. But ultimately, "ambience" is a pretty minor factor. Money will be the ultimate key to the decision. If the ACC is convinced that moving to MSG will make them more money, then they'll do it. If not, they won't.

His argument isn't centered upon the idea of making more money per se, but rather the broader (and admittedly more nebulous) notion of "exposure." Essentially, his contention is that the chance to play on that stage under those circumstances will continue to draw top-flight talent to a league that in some other ways, looks kind of vulnerable, and that the strength the programs enjoy will in turn enhance the conference's long-term stability.
The big hole in the argument, of course, is the fact that basketball ain't driving the ship at this point, so top-flight talent wanting to play in MSG doesn't make much difference. That counter is a valid one, and overall, I don't necessarily agree with Thamel (I certainly don't think the ACCT should move permanently); I just think he raises an interesting point and makes a fairly compelling case for his opinion.

[hurleyfor3]

Selfishly, I'd love to see it back at the Verizon Center in DC. I went to all the games in 2005 and thought it was a great atmosphere

No, it wasn't. DC sucked.

[David]

One minor question not addressed by Thamel in that piece:

1) How will moving to Madison Square Garden help the ACC make more money? Will it allow them to sell more tickets? Will the "energy" and "environment" of the Garden lead to more TV money from ESPN? What is the substantive, tangible benefit from doing this?

As much as we would all like to think basketball stirs the drink, conference realignment is about football, football, and oh year, football. Thus, I think Thamel is off in his article in suggesting that moving the ACC tournament to MSG would improve the long-term health of the ACC in regards to realignment. It might generate excitement and it might help to grow the ACC in the northeast, but to Thamel's point, it will not stave off poachers from other conferences.

[-bdbd]

Selfishly, I'd love to see it back at the Verizon Center in DC. I went to all the games in 2005 and thought it was a great atmosphere, and now that Maryland's gone, no team would have a geographic advantage.

Lots of ACC alums in the DC metro area too-- with no real overwhelming fanbase.

And it is more in the geographic center between Boston and Miami than New York is.

I am in DC area too and would, selfishly, like to see it more in the new "geographic center" of the conference. It seems to me the there are maybe 4-5 logical venues within the ACC footprint - NYC, DC, G'boro Atlanta and maybe Charlotte. I suspect that the ACC will continue to rotate it around some. But it is really hard to argue, given the size of the opportunity currently presented to us, not to jump at NYC at least some of the time in the near future. It is less about the crowds - MSG seats less than 25K I think anyway - and more about being at the media center of the universe, and somewhat about prestige as well. Given how money is such a huge driver, how can we not want that, and jump at it while the door is (temporarily) open??

Hypothetical: For those "traditionalists" among us, would you still prefer to stay in G'boro over the NYC's, DC's and Atlanta's of the world if it meant that it was going to cause the loss of 1-2 more ACC schools over the next 6 years? (YES, I realize that nothing is that simple/direct, but it makes the point that those are the sorts of implications that the ACC and Swofford are having to weigh.)

BTW, I think an ACCT in NYC would favor Duke, where we have a great alumni presence, over some other conference powers.

Concerning the comments about the Catholic/Big East already locking in the MSG locale for their tournament, doesn't MSG get a say in that? And I can't imagine, in any event, that is locked for much longer than the current ACCT location commitments either...

I like the idea of rotating between G'boro and NYC and DC and maybe Atlanta or Charlotte. At a minimum, having it in DC soon after MD's departure would piss off the Terp fans to no end. As far as the Big10 holding theirs in Philly -- NO WAY. It would be akin to the ACC hoating theirs in Miami or Boston, at the geographic extreme of the league's footprint. Big10 is a Midwest league and Chicago is their home (and Chicago is pretty damn big!).

[Monmouth77]

No, it wasn't. DC sucked.

Maybe you could explain why it "sucked" to be in DC. Were the hotels too expensive? Did you not like the stadium? Were there not enough enthusiastic fans?

That comment does not really advance a dialogue, which is interesting coming from a "moderator."

[hurleyfor3]

Maybe you could explain why it "sucked" to be in DC. Were the hotels too expensive? Did you not like the stadium? Were there not enough enthusiastic fans?

All of the above and more. I got a decent hotel deal in fact, although you wouldn't have known the tournament was going on, in contrast to every hotel lobby I've been in when it has been in Greensboro.

http://www.dukebasketballreport.com/...485#post591485

[hurleyfor3]

Hypothetical: For those "traditionalists" among us, would you still prefer to stay in G'boro over the NYC's, DC's and Atlanta's of the world if it meant that it was going to cause the loss of 1-2 more ACC schools over the next 6 years? (YES, I realize that nothing is that simple/direct, but it makes the point that those are the sorts of implications that the ACC and Swofford are having to weigh.)

False choice. The ACC has been moving the thing around since the 1970s, and I accept good reasons exist to continue doing so.

I mentioned I'd be interested in a trial run in NYC, and I'd be intrigued to try it in Boston or Pittsburgh, two cities that haven't been mentioned yet. Not sure where you'd put it to accommodate Loovul. The Yum Center would already be home games for Loovul, Freedom Hall is probably too dated, and somewhere like Lexington... not going there. Literally.

But if a venue doesn't work, it doesn't work. The conference tried a multi-year run in Charlotte, and it came back to Greensboro. It tried the Cap Centre, the Omni, the Georgia Dome... really, it has little to do with tradition.

[moonpie23]

i gotta go run some kids off my lawn, but, the Masters is still played in Augusta and the ACCT should ALWAYS be in G'boro....

[Blue in the Face]

Concerning the comments about the Catholic/Big East already locking in the MSG locale for their tournament, doesn't MSG get a say in that? And I can't imagine, in any event, that is locked for much longer than the current ACCT location commitments either...

The Big East signed a 10-year lease with MSG for the tournament this past fall, so that's quite a bit longer than the ACC's commtiment to Greensboro. I don't know to what extent there are outs for the MSG with the dissolution of the conference - I haven't seen anything in the reports that the Catholic 7 will get to have their conference in MSG next year which explicitly states that they've simply inherited that lease for the entire duration, but it's possible MSG is locked in and has no say. (Though if the future Big East wanted to work out a deal to sub-lease it to another conference for a year, I imagine a conference like the ACC would be perfectly acceptable to MSG).

[sagegrouse]

Selfishly, I'd love to see it back at the Verizon Center in DC. I went to all the games in 2005 and thought it was a great atmosphere, and now that Maryland's gone, no team would have a geographic advantage.

Lots of ACC alums in the DC metro area too-- with no real overwhelming fanbase.

And it is more in the geographic center between Boston and Miami than New York is.

No, it wasn't. DC sucked.

Maybe you could explain why it "sucked" to be in DC. Were the hotels too expensive? Did you not like the stadium? Were there not enough enthusiastic fans?

That comment does not really advance a dialogue, which is interesting coming from a "moderator."

If you are comfortable with the DC Metro system, DC is a wonderful venue. If you leave (or approach) the arena there are 30-50 watering holes, restaurants and clubs within a ten-minute walk. If you leave G'bo between sessions and walk ten minutes, you are on some useless surface arterial with no amenities whatsoever. Sorry, Greensburrowers.]

So, if the problem is the DC Metro, get over it! It is a very good system and easily navigated (although watch out for closing time).

Similarly, in NY, Madison Square Garden is across the street from Union Station and the nexus of many different NY subway lines. Plus it is less than a one-mile walk from much of interest in Manhattan.

Now, both locations and especially NY are inconvenient to the ACC's traditional fan base. I guess Pete Hamel would say, "That's the ACC's problem." In fact, according to Al Featherston, over one-half of the members of the ACC sports media association are in NC. Does that sound like a conference of national signficance? Maybe it's time to put on a big-boy suit and go to the big city.

sagegrouse
'I got totally flamed the last time I made such comments'