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  1. #1

    2013 All-ACC Teams, POY and other honors

    Press release.

    FIRST TEAM
    Mason Plumlee Duke
    Erick Green Virginia Tech
    Shane Larkin Miami
    Joe Harris Virginia
    Richard Howell NC State

    SECOND TEAM
    Seth Curry Duke
    Kenny Kadji Miami
    Lorenzo Brown NC State
    Reggie Bullock North Carolina
    James Michael McAdoo North Carolina

    THIRD TEAM
    Michael Snaer Florida State
    C.J. Leslie NC State
    Ryan Anderson Boston College
    Quinn Cook Duke
    Devin Booker Clemson
    Akil Mitchell Virginia


    My thoughts: No surprises on the first team. Not surprised JMM made second team either, although it strikes me as absurd personally. Mitchell continues to be underrated IMO as he puts up numbers very close to Howell once you adjust for pace, on a better team.

  2. #2
    Join Date
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    Quote Originally Posted by vick View Post
    Press release.

    FIRST TEAM
    Mason Plumlee Duke
    Erick Green Virginia Tech
    Shane Larkin Miami
    Joe Harris Virginia
    Richard Howell NC State

    SECOND TEAM
    Seth Curry Duke
    Kenny Kadji Miami
    Lorenzo Brown NC State
    Reggie Bullock North Carolina
    James Michael McAdoo North Carolina

    THIRD TEAM
    Michael Snaer Florida State
    C.J. Leslie NC State
    Ryan Anderson Boston College
    Quinn Cook Duke
    Devin Booker Clemson
    Akil Mitchell Virginia


    My thoughts: No surprises on the first team. Not surprised JMM made second team either, although it strikes me as absurd personally. Mitchell continues to be underrated IMO as he puts up numbers very close to Howell once you adjust for pace, on a better team.
    McAdoo on 2nd team over Ryan Anderson is criminal...

  3. #3
    Join Date
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    Thanks for posting, and congrats to Mason, Seth, and Quinn.

    Generally agree with most of the picks; McAdoo on the 2nd team is questionable; I'd put Mitchell or Ryan Anderson ahead of him.

  4. #4
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    Feb 2008
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    Considering I was more useful to UNC than JMM was, I think I should be on the 2nd team.

    Other than that, no real issues with the picks. Hard to make a case for Curry over Howell...

  5. #5
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    Where's Len? Alex Len. The highest rated pro prospect.

    Leslie 3rd team? Not that he deserves higher, but he was sure expected to do better. Still a pro prospect, but why?

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Newton_14 View Post
    McAdoo on 2nd team over Ryan Anderson is criminal...
    That's James Michael McAdoo... which is much cooler to say .

    I agree, what a crock. Reminds me of when HB got voted in front of Kendall Marshall.... just a product of the PR machine.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by BD80 View Post
    Where's Len? Alex Len. The highest rated pro prospect.

    Leslie 3rd team? Not that he deserves higher, but he was sure expected to do better. Still a pro prospect, but why?
    I think voters felt his rewards should be in heaven in the NBA and not here on earth in the ACC.

    sagegrouse

  8. #8
    Funny that we have three guys on All-ACC teams and the guy a lot of people are calling our best player isn't on any. I guess Ryan can't make an All-ACC team because he didn't play in enough ACC games, but it's a shame.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by BD80 View Post
    Where's Len? Alex Len. The highest rated pro prospect.

    Leslie 3rd team? Not that he deserves higher, but he was sure expected to do better. Still a pro prospect, but why?
    Len got an honorable mention, along with Ryan Kelly (whom many voters presumably left off their ballots because he missed so many ACC games). Not sure what that means except that someone voted for him.

    All-Freshman team is out and Sulaimon is of course on it, tied with Warren for the second largest number of votes after Olivier Hanlon. Also on the frosh team: Devin Thomas and Marcus Paige.

  10. #10
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    I'd make only 2 definite changes:

    1. McAdoo would not be in the top-15.
    2. Mitchell or Anderson would replace McAdoo on the 2nd team.

    Otherwise, I think the media did a fairly reasonable job. One could quibble with the end of the list (Cook and Booker could easily be replaced by Scott, Hairston, or Len and I wouldn't blink), but quibbling about picks 14 and 15 aren't all that big a deal.

    The general media's ignorance bias in favor of pace (i.e., looking at count stats and not considering efficiency)* certainly helped McAdoo and hurt Harris and Mitchell.

    * Note: I'm disparaging the media as a collective and not any singular media member. There are certainly well-informed, reasonable media members who are able to look past the count stats in assessing quality. But as a collective, the group is still completely joined at the hip with count stats.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Newton_14 View Post
    McAdoo on 2nd team over Ryan Anderson is criminal...
    I don't like JMM that much but it really isn't criminal to Ryan Anderson. Looking at numbers, JMM and Anderson were pretty much even as Anderson had 14.5 points to JMM 14.4. Both had 7.2 rebounds and JMM averaged 1.5 steals per game while Anderson wasn't even listed on ACC's website.

    Mitchell probably has a better case 13.0 poionts, 8.8 rebounds and 1.2 steals but neither was that much better than JMM. I don't think the gap should have been so big but with all the hype, I'm not surprised. Also assuming that the Sports Media Association is NC centric and has plenty of North Carolina fans on it, can't expect much more.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kedsy View Post
    Funny that we have three guys on All-ACC teams and the guy a lot of people are calling our best player isn't on any. I guess Ryan can't make an All-ACC team because he didn't play in enough ACC games, but it's a shame.
    Well, I don't know how many people are calling Kelly our best player. I think the argument is made that he's one of our most critical players. But I'd have to believe that the list is pretty short for guys calling Kelly our best player.

    That being said, his exclusion is 100% a function of playing in only 5 of 18 ACC games. Kelly did average 19.2 ppg and shot 58.3% from the field (and 64% from 3pt range) in conference play. But if you play in less than 1/3 of the conference games, you shouldn't be on the All-Conference team.

  13. #13
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    I'm assuming that since Plumlee got the most votes for first team, he's a virtual lock for ACC POY, right?

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by CDu View Post
    The general media's ignorance bias in favor of pace (i.e., looking at count stats and not considering efficiency)* certainly helped McAdoo and hurt Harris and Mitchell.
    Also the media's North Carolina and especially unc bias.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by sporthenry View Post
    I don't like JMM that much but it really isn't criminal to Ryan Anderson. Looking at numbers, JMM and Anderson were pretty much even as Anderson had 14.5 points to JMM 14.4. Both had 7.2 rebounds and JMM averaged 1.5 steals per game while Anderson wasn't even listed on ACC's website.

    Mitchell probably has a better case 13.0 poionts, 8.8 rebounds and 1.2 steals but neither was that much better than JMM. I don't think the gap should have been so big but with all the hype, I'm not surprised. Also assuming that the Sports Media Association is NC centric and has plenty of North Carolina fans on it, can't expect much more.
    You're falling prey to the same mistakes to which the media voters fell prey. You're looking only at count stats rather than looking at efficiency.

    McAdoo was the second-least efficient player on his own team (ahead of only Hubert, who is atrocious offensively). His stats were accumulated on volume of possessions (UNC plays at the #9 pace nationally - by far the fastest pace of any team in the conference) and volume of possessions used (McAdoo led his team in shot attempts by a wide margin).

    Conversely, Boston College (#189 in tempo) and UVa (#339) both play at a really slow pace. So the fact that the stats accumulated by Anderson and Mitchell are so close to those accumulated by McAdoo is actually evidence that they've outplayed McAdoo. And that's ignoring usage rate, where McAdoo exceeds both.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by sporthenry View Post
    I don't like JMM that much but it really isn't criminal to Ryan Anderson. Looking at numbers, JMM and Anderson were pretty much even as Anderson had 14.5 points to JMM 14.4. Both had 7.2 rebounds and JMM averaged 1.5 steals per game while Anderson wasn't even listed on ACC's website.

    Mitchell probably has a better case 13.0 poionts, 8.8 rebounds and 1.2 steals but neither was that much better than JMM. I don't think the gap should have been so big but with all the hype, I'm not surprised. Also assuming that the Sports Media Association is NC centric and has plenty of North Carolina fans on it, can't expect much more.
    I think Mitchell's case over JMM is a slam dunk, honestly, and that it's even close (let alone that JMM was voted far ahead of him) is a textbook example of what CDu is talking about, pace bias, along with ignoring how important efficiency is (and you may be right, some NC-centric media). I mean, JMM averaged just 1.4 more points during ACC play--on nearly 4 more shot attempts per game! JMM's offensive rating in ACC games is, according to Statsheet, 89.6, which is, quite frankly, pathetic. Add in Mitchell being a superior defender, and I think it's just a clear case in Mitchell's favor.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by FerryFor50 View Post
    I'm assuming that since Plumlee got the most votes for first team, he's a virtual lock for ACC POY, right?
    He got 73, Larkin got 72, Green got 72, Harris got 67. It's far too close to say that he's a lock for ACC POY, any one of those 4 could get it. After all, all 73 of those people could believe Plumlee is the fifth-best player in the league.

  18. #18

    Kelly uber alles

    anyone else seeing Ryan Kelly as MOP (or MVP or whatever it is these days) of the ACCT?

    I just have this feeling...

  19. #19
    Join Date
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    Quote Originally Posted by FerryFor50 View Post
    I'm assuming that since Plumlee got the most votes for first team, he's a virtual lock for ACC POY, right?
    Bob Verga got the most votes for All-ACC in 1967 but finished second in ACC POY voting to Larry Miller.

    Rashad McCants got the most votes in 2004 but finished third in POY voting to Julius Hodge and Chris Duhon.

    I would be astonished if Green got POY. No way you can leave him off first team, no way you can vote him POY. It's a two-way race between Plumlee and Larkin, IMO.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by CDu View Post
    You're falling prey to the same mistakes to which the media voters fell prey. You're looking only at count stats rather than looking at efficiency.

    McAdoo was the second-least efficient player on his own team (ahead of only Hubert, who is atrocious offensively). His stats were accumulated on volume of possessions (UNC plays at the #9 pace nationally - by far the fastest pace of any team in the conference) and volume of possessions used (McAdoo led his team in shot attempts by a wide margin).

    Conversely, Boston College (#189 in tempo) and UVa (#339) both play at a really slow pace. So the fact that the stats accumulated by Anderson and Mitchell are so close to those accumulated by McAdoo is actually evidence that they've outplayed McAdoo. And that's ignoring usage rate, where McAdoo exceeds both.
    Well I'm using counting stats b/c that is what they are usually judged on. Sure you can bring up advanced statistics but we are years and decades away from using them at least in college basketball voting. I guess you could say I'm falling prey to their mistakes or I'm just understanding how they vote.

    As for the advanced stats, if we really did it like this, the teams would probably end up looking very different and it is unfair to pick one guy and do the advanced stats with him. If we want to go advanced stats and bring up usage rates then TJ Warren deserved a 1st team nod or at worst a 2nd team. Leads conference in eFG%, 8th in PER, 3rd in offensive rating, etc.

    As for using usage rates, I'm not sure that the lower usage rate guys will ever get the nod. Such is the life but if you aren't used much on your team than you obviously have better players on your team and there is something to be said for being the focal point on offense and still putting numbers up. Curry and Greene had equal ORTG on kenpom but who do you think had the more impressive season? The guy used on 31.7% of his possessions or the one used on 22.5% of them?

    And pace-wise, I don't think you'll ever see votes give a slow paced team any benefit. The narrative this whole season has been how this season has been ugly and slow so why would we go back and adjust all these stats for pace? Sure, JMM's stats should be normalized a bit for UNC's pace but when has that ever been done before.

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